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Sarah
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| Posted: Jan 03 2006 at 11:39am | IP Logged
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mrsgranola wrote:
| I've always been an unschooler at heart but I draw the line at the "non-coercive parenting" junk that MacBeth referred to. |
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I agree and this was what I was trying to say but got too wordy. 
As far as the different learning styles go. . .that's hard under the same roof, I agree.
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MacBeth
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| Posted: Jan 03 2006 at 11:58am | IP Logged
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juliecinci wrote:
| Macbeth, I spent three years on the unschooling list (the radical one) and from what I've seen of those who consider themselves models of unschooling is that neglect is not unschooling. Deep, attentive involvement is. I don't know what sasparilla in the scrub was about so it would be hard to comment. |
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It was a joke. 
juliecinci wrote:
| While you have the view that children can't be trusted to work on behalf of their own self-interests, unschooling doesn't make sense. It seems to aid and abet weaknesses and immaturity - a profile of children that says they are not likely to work hard or achieve things without adult supervision and coercion. |
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Whoa, now! Please don't misunderstand me. I am not saying that children cannot be trusted to work on their own behalf. I do believe that, just as one cannot generalize about all children being untrustworthy, neither can we generalize about all children being trustworthy to always work on their own behalf. And I am the first person in line to see the value of ditch digging, daydreaming, etc. But I have, from my experience with my own children, seen weaknesses that some radical unschoolers might dismiss.
And from speaking around the country, I have also met many, many homeschoolers, often those who consider themselves unschoolers, or unschooling-wannabes, who want to know how to motivate a student in a certain area of study. I find this especially true on nature study. Some folks have kids who are simply not interested in nature study. Some kids are simply not interested in writing. Many have no interest in math. Some kids, like mine,  would rather eat out of gravy boats and measuring cups than stop reading and do the dishes. In some cases, we just have to jump in and say that some things have to be done. If they resist, do we pat them on the head and say, "OK, Honey...you don't have to bother with that if you don't want to."? That is not to say that we cannot make things as pleasant as possible, look for new curriculum, find ways of making the learning more natural, take the time to observe how things are already more natural, and more.
juliecinci wrote:
| Unschoolers resist this view. They say that children are like adults in that they want to live lives of value, that challenge and stimulate them, that offer them a sense of competence and contribution to the world around them. What they lack that adults have in abundance are resources. |
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I have also heard some say that we have no right to give the children those resources unless they ask for them. That's a bit much for me. I see unschooling as more of a give and take situation. I give what I think I need to give. Sometimes they ask, sometimes I must be more tuned to what they need. Sometimes they thank me. Sometimes they give me a look  (always in charity towards poor old mom).
And this above statement also assumes that all adults want to live lives of value. Is that so? I am very doubtful. I have seen adults who were quite apathetic. I have seen kids who are apathetic. I have seen adults who are amazingly motivated (way more motivated than I am). Most of us are somewhere in between, with certain parts of our lives where we are super-motivated, and other parts where we could care less...and sometimes our own areas of apathy are areas that others see as critical to a life of "value."
juliecinci wrote:
They need help, tutors, classes, money, ideas, materials, time, encouragement, enthusiasm and a yellow pages.
These parents can give.
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Absolutely. But some unschoolers might say that we should not offer these things, unless we are specifically asked. But if it never occurs to the child to ask, what will become of that neglected spark?
Off to take kid #4 to a viola lesson which he might prefer to skip, if I asked. 
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juliecinci
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| Posted: Jan 03 2006 at 12:03pm | IP Logged
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Non-coercive parenting.
A couple of you have mentioned it.
Most of the unschooling moms on the radical list use a different term: mindful parenting. There are subtle and important differences in their minds between the terms. Too much to go into here, but wanted to express what I've heard them say directly when asked about these terms.
Additionally, I have been a part of a non-coercive parenting loop and have read the NCP materials thoroughly. It seems to me that it might be a bit dismissive to call NCP practices "junk." Even as we tease out the differences between parenting styles, it helps to remember that some people may live that style of parenting (NCP or some version of it) and it could feel disrespectful to dismiss it as junk. Usually very deep reasons attend any intentional parenting style decision.
I'm grateful to those who've practiced both NCP and mindful parenting for helping me to look at my children differently... in fact, something I've thought lots about vis a vis NCP is that this seems to be how God relates to us...
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Julie
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juliecinci
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| Posted: Jan 03 2006 at 12:12pm | IP Logged
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MacBeth wrote:
I have also heard some say that we have no right to give the children those resources unless they ask for them. |
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Yeah, I haven't heard that from what I've read. But I totally take your word for it. That seems to go against the idea of involvement to me... perhaps this is the extreme form of NCP that the unschooling list is rejecting.
MacBeth wrote:
| That's a bit much for me. I see unschooling as more of a give and take situation. I give what I think I need to give. Sometimes they ask, sometimes I must be more tuned to what they need. Sometimes they thank me. Sometimes they give me a look (always in charity towards poor old mom). |
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This is true for me as well. It is a give and take and a take and give too.
MacBeth wrote:
| And this above statement also assumes that all adults want to live lives of value. Is that so? I am very doubtful. I have seen adults who were quite apathetic. I have seen kids who are apathetic. |
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I keep coming back to this though. How do you make someone become not apathetic? This is what it boils down to for me. We see a reality and we want to change it. We are trying to figure out if it is possible to even change it through requirement or coercion or whatever you want to call it.
I am truly wondering this.
If you have an apathetic kid, does requiring someone to perform generate motivation? Or do we simply "require" and figure the motivation is unnecessary? Does this eradicate the likelihood of being an apathetic adult later?
Most of the stuff we deal with isn't true apathy. It's momentary "I don't wannas." So I'm with you - do the best we can to create conditions conducive to living together in peace.
"Hey we need to get these dishes washed before we can play Canasta. Who wants to help?"
If no one helps, then it takes a lot longer to get to the game or TV show or whatever.
I know this is too simple, but it's an orientation I'm trying to speak of.
So for me, the ideal is to be a part of the process of seeing my kids as they are, honoring their choices, offering them new adventures and learning opportunities, developing our relationship with each other so that there is bondedness, trust and support while casting a vision (or helping to cast one) that includes a future that the child would look forward to (for one of my kids, that future has to be next week or he can't see it...).
Sometimes that includes asking for everyone to drop everything to get the house picked up NOW and other times it means leaving the house a mess while someone beats a level on the X Box.
Well, now I'm off to saxophone lessons. 
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Sarah
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| Posted: Jan 03 2006 at 1:39pm | IP Logged
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juliecinci wrote:
Non-coercive parenting.
A couple of you have mentioned it.
Usually very deep reasons attend any intentional parenting style decision.
NCP. . .
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I didn't know there was an actual term for a pareting style here, I was thinking it was a generic term. Sorry if I offended anyone! (Do we have a foot-in-the-mouth emoticon!) . Again, didn't mean to single out a certain specific group of people-didn't know there was such a thing as NCP. I should have done my homework before I said anything  . I'm going to lay low now for awhile since I might be making more of a mess of things. Off to *require* a little math since we haven't done it for weeks!
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MacBeth
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Sarah wrote:
| Again, didn't mean to single out a certain specific group of people-didn't know there was such a thing as NCP. I should have done my homework before I said anything . I'm going to lay low now for awhile since I might be making more of a mess of things. Off to *require* a little math since we haven't done it for weeks! |
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Sarah, please don't feel like you have to head for the hills. I think this is a very valuable discussion, and everyone is sharing ideas, and that means everyone!
The big problem with discussing something like unschooling in an open forum is curiosity vs. antagonism. Many folks here, in visiting the unschooling forum, are curious. Perhaps we have heard something about unschooling that makes us nervous, or something that makes unschooling seem like the answer to our prayers. Either way, we might visit with questions, which open up a discussion. I love discussions. But in a limited medium like a BB, one misses the clues that tell when a person in curious or plain negative, and I don't think anyone is being just plain negative, but I do think that a serious discussion like this one in an open forum can seem more heated than it really is. Misinterpretations are a real concern (I misunderstand things ALL the time ), and I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable on this board.
Others who are unschooling might come here looking for simple unquestioning support. More than any other forum on this board, unschooling lends itself to a two-fold purpose. When there is some crossing over between info-seekers and support-seekers, things get tricky. That's why we hired Lissa .
Here's a question for you all--would we benefit from separate forums for "unschooling debate" and "unschooling support"? Would we all feel more comfortable separating these topics?
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juliecinci
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Sarah wrote:
I didn't know there was an actual term for a pareting style here, I was thinking it was a generic term. Sorry if I offended anyone! (Do we have a foot-in-the-mouth emoticon!) . |
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Not offended and I don't even practice NCP in the way it is often taught. I just wanted to also be sure that anyone who did didn't feel singled out as unconscientious toward her children.
Like Macbeth, I hope you will continue to participate as ideas occur to you. Some of your concerns are so common and they are valuable issues to raise and discuss!
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mrsgranola
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Julie and all, I'm sorry I put in "junk" in reference to NCP. I have also read a great deal of NCP materials and unschooling materials and I shouldn't have lumped that extreme wing in NCP into "junk". It's just MHO... I'm afraid my lack of sleep had me a little too freely rattling on. Mea culpa...
However, IMO, those who completely wait for the child to have an interest in something (i.e. religion, hygiene, math, whatever) are doing a real disservice to their children. So that's where I draw the line (or we draw the line) in our family... God gave parents for guidance. I think that's where Christian unschooling authors tend to draw the line, as well. SO that's where I'm coming from...
The "eclectic", relaxed homeschooler-
JoAnna
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Lissa
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| Posted: Jan 03 2006 at 5:21pm | IP Logged
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mrsgranola wrote:
| So that's where I draw the line (or we draw the line) in our family... |
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Thinking through this discussion, I'm wondering if you haven't just nailed the bottom-line issue (so to speak) right there. MacBeth and Julie touched on this as well. The reason unschooling is so hard to define (and the reason so many unschooling discussions founder at some point because of the malleability of the definition) is because somewhere, every unschooling parent (like every other parent) has to decide where that line is. On one side of the line is *what the parent will require a child to do.* On the other side is *what the parent will allow the child freedom to choose or not to choose, as the child wishes.*
(I struggled over that "other side" description--not sure that's the best way to say it.)
Joanne, I agree with you that most of the Catholic and other Christian unschoolers I have encountered do put chores, bedtime, hygiene, manners, family prayers, etc on the "parent will require" side of the line. I certainly have my own set of non-negotiables. You WILL write a thank-you note to your grandmother; opting out is not an option.
(However, I am open to discussion as to how that requirement will be fulfilled. Perhaps you would like me to take dictation. Perhaps you would like to draw a picture. Perhaps you would like to use my fountain pen and this pretty paper. Perhaps you would like to type it on the computer and print it out. Etc.)
Many unschooling discussions become tricky when the line-drawing opinions of people not present are introduced into the conversation. "Some would say that a real unschooler should never..." etc—but if the folks *saying* it aren't present to articulate their case, the conversation bogs down.
Personally, I'm very interested in hearing where people do draw this particular line. I'm less concerned with nailing down an exact, fixed definition of unschooling: you aren't an unschooler if you draw the line *here*--or if you draw the line at all--that sort of thing.
I'm constantly reassessing my own placement of this line. That's where I like to hear from others on the subject: what's your experience with X subject or task? Have you had more success putting it on the "must" side of the line or the "may" side?
And as I write this post, I see that I'm also convinced that it isn't just a matter of what goes over the line, but how we "make" the "must" stuff happen. Julie, I think you're raising this question too, when you ask if it is really possible to MAKE someone do something.
In my thank-you note example above, I've put that task on the "must" side, but I'm aware of the big difference the "how you must" can make. This involves my attitude (cheerful or stern?), my flexibility, my timing, my child's personality—in short, it requires the kind of connectedness that folks here keep talking about as an essential component and strength of unschooling. Julie, you once used (elsewhere) the term "relational coziness," and I think that is such an apt and useful phrase.
My quest isn't to determine whether I can define myself as an unschooler, but rather to determine where, in regard to my individual children, to draw this line, and how I can maintain an atmosphere of joyful connectedness in everything my family does, be it Must or May.
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Leonie
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MacBeth wrote:
Here's a question for you all--would we benefit from separate forums for "unschooling debate" and "unschooling support"? Would we all feel more comfortable separating these topics? |
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I don't know.
I think there will inevitably be times when the debate and support will overlap - and I probably won't post on a debate forum. I just like to chat and share! 
Perhaps just leave it as it is and recognize that sometimes buttons will be pressed.
I know we all strive to practice charity in our posts and I think disagreements can arise in any folder - just that the unschooling one is the hot button right now.
That is my long two cents worth!
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Willa
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Lissa wrote:
| My quest isn't to determine whether I can define myself as an unschooler, but rather to determine where, in regard to my individual children, to draw this line, and how I can maintain an atmosphere of joyful connectedness in everything my family does, be it Must or May. |
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My first children were born in a very liberal university town in the Pacific Northwest. I guess there was probably a lot of NCP-type parenting there. Anyway, my first years of mothering were very confusing to me. My mom's parenting was pretty good but I wanted to find my own balance, not try to be a copy of my mother. But I sort of hit the extremes, for a while -- didn't even want to say "no" to my first child, was a bit hesitant about asserting authority.
All this is a prelude to saying that it took me some time to realize that kids actually like to have some boundaries. I think it was a lightbulb moment when I first read Charlotte Mason talking about the anxiety a child feels when it has to make its own decisions, not just once, but over and over again every day. Habits!! My kids relaxed when they had some habits set for them. They had not asked for them in so many words, because they didn't know that they were lacking them, but they DID like them and haven't raised any real resistance.
Of course CM also warned about the opposite extreme of the parents who lay down every single micro-detail and never let their kids exercise any choice or have personal responsibility. That leads to the child either becoming passively compliant, or reflexively resistant, and neither is a good thing for the human spirit.
Now does unschooling prohibit a certain kind of boundary-setting? Why should it? I think it has been well demonstrated throughout history that all humans like to have rules and customs, and will invent their own if none are already established. But often they prefer their rules and customs to be set FOR them; when you have to make up ALL your own rules, you're like Harold with the Purple Crayon, who has to draw his own bed and blankets in his own room -- that always seemed haunting and pitifully lonely to me, when I was a child!
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Willa
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Also, I was going to point out that philosophically, "There ARE no rules" IS of course a rule. Unschoolers make rules, even the most "non-coercive" ones. If you took an extreme "I will never tell you to do anything, my child" the corollary is "I have made a rule that you must never look for explicit direction from me".
I doubt if many unschoolers actually do parent that way. I like the "mindful parenting" term better because it implies that the parents don't do things reflexively, just because of their own personal temperament or because they were raised that way or raised the opposite way. They think and explore alternatives, and try to model that for their kids. Anyway, that's what we try to do.
If the kid is putting up a stiff resistance, there is usually a REAL reason in their mind. Even if I don't agree with the child's reasoning, it is helpful to listen and try to understand and see the germ of truth in their viewpoint, and work from there.
I personally also think there is a real JOY in doing something just "because it is right" or just out of simple obedience. My children really do benefit from being asked to do things on that basis. One thing that bothers me sometimes about the secular unschooling rhetoric is that sometimes it seems too individualistic, too little appreciative of the way our nature is set up to be hierarchical -- what Charlotte Mason calls the "fulcrum of authority and obedience". Authority/obedience is not the same as superior/inferior.
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Willa
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Willa
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Oh, and I just realized I came in on the second page of this thread, without realizing there was a first page.
I see in Julie's earlier posts something I wanted to bring out, though I think she started the Human Nature thread to develop it herself.
The example she gave was of her brother who "seemed" lazy but was not. Rather, he was dealing with emotional trauma from his parents divorce.
I've had similar experiences in myself -- times when it seemed not much was getting done, but in fact, I was processing or dealing with something physical or emotional. The fact is I don't LIKE being unproductive, but sometimes it happens. Cycles of productivity are part of life -- my life at least -- and it's not quite the same as irresponsibility.
The bigger point behind Julie's posts was, I felt, that we don't always KNOW what's going on with our kids. We don't know their motives, what their heart attitude is. St Therese of Lisieux went through a period of several years in her childhood when she would cry at the drop of a hat, at anything and everything. Most people would probably think she was being a crybaby and self-indulgent. In fact, she was not at all. She was processing her mother's death and growing up into a highly sensitive person worthy to be a great saint. She felt the flaw in being so emotionally fragile, more than anyone, and as soon as she could, she moved past it. But at a younger age, she COULDN'T move past it, she had to cope with it, and I think a get-tough attitude would have really hurt her spirit.
We as parents sometimes think we can judge WHY our children are acting a certain way. Not so, though. Interventions designed towards changing behavior are usually more successful than those targeted towards imputing heart attitudes.
If we get bothered by seeing our child lying under a tree, it may be going too far to say, "he is just lazy." Who knows what he's doing under that tree? If we don't like it, we as parents can say, "no lying under trees" or "you can only lie under a tree for 30 minutes a day." We have that authority, and it will not hurt our child to obey this kind of directive, unless we heap "command upon command, grievous to be borne" as CM says.
But there are other alternatives, and I get the sense that unschoolers prefer to explore the other alternatives first. Perhaps they think, "Well, when did he START lying under the tree so much? Is this an interim between phases? Should I wait and see if he stops doing it on his own? Should I ask him? Has there been any change in his health recently? What's he doing when he's NOT lying under the tree? etc"
I think all good parents do this quite a bit, not just unschoolers. The fact is there could be a lot of other reasons besides laziness for spending time under a tree. Christian charity tells us to assume the best of another's behavior. That doesn't exclude our children, I don't believe. In fact, perhaps we may be MORE obligated to assume the best of our children because they are so vulnerable to the force of our parental judgement. Try treating a child like an irresponsible scamp for a few days, and see if his behavior deteriorates or improves. Try treating him like a young child of God who wants to do his best but needs instruction and help in coping, and see what happens then.
Simple behaviorial intervention is fairly effective sometimes, but limited because it doesn't reach the heart, by itself. That's why CM didn't believe in reward/punishment type devices, but preferred real-life consequences. And imputing motives is usually quite ineffective. It doesn't really affect the behavior, except adversely, and it doesn't usually help the parent to really get a fix on what is going on with the kid.
People don't find happiness in sinning. If they are sinning, they are inevitably miserable. Often children are harder on themselves than we are on them. In my experience, they want and need help and guidance when they get bogged down in their human nature. That's a matter of give-and-take, of reciprocity, of asking and listening. This is not indulging sin or ignoring it, it is Christian counsel.
Sorry if this sounds too strong or controversial, it is not meant to be at all! I don't think I am disagreeing with any of you, but I just wanted to bring out that slightly different perspective.
These are the kinds of issues I know I could never see worked out on a secular unschooling forum, so I'm grateful for this one!
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Willa
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Willa
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Lissa wrote:
Ooh, interesting point, Mary. Necessity is the mother of activity?
An atmosphere of connectedness and trust means that a kid is going to grow up with an understanding of his role as a valuable and contributing member of the household. If the slacker unschooler exists, it seems to me the problem lies in how he was parented, not how he was educated. |
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Sorry to flood the forum. I guess I'm catching up.
This brings up another aspect of the unschooling thing to me. It seems that environment plays a fairly crucial role.
Successful unschoolers, from what I've read and seen, seem to set up an environment that phases in with "the real world" as much as possible. No glass bubble; no enabling and co-dependency.
I feel a bit challenged by that when I look at my home. My kids do a fair bit of pitching in because in the real world, it's fair that they help maintain and restore what they have used and enjoyed.
But they could be doing more, and in some ways our home environment is artificially easy for them.
I think that could be one possible pitfall for the unschooler. The fact that our lives as Americans are so utterly luxurious. Abraham Lincoln was basically an unschooler. He received very little formal education and the little he did get, he got because he desperately WANTED it.
But his life was "realistic". He got little shielding from the difficult aspects of surviving and thriving in a rough world. His circumstances made him mature and then the work ethic and scholarly energy followed from there.
This is true of the Colfax kids who unschooled in No California while their parents homesteaded. They worked hard and were real members of the family team. Everything they did was personally meaningful to them, and they were realistically motivated to succeed academically as well, getting the most accomplished in the least possible time.
It makes me think that if I keep unschooling, my kids' life will have to take on more of a "natural-consequences" model so that getting out into the world will not be a huge shock for them. And perhaps that is one reason I'm attracted to unschooling. Our more structured form of homeschooling sometimes seemed like a bit of an "academic glass bubble" to me.
I think "necessity is the mother of activity" is a very excellent point, in that regard, and Julie made the same point in another thread, saying that she was inspired to make up Bravewriter because of financial need.
It's doing our kids a favor perhaps, to let them experience "necessity" -- or "discrepancy"-- but in my experience, parental injunctions aren't usually experienced as "necessity", at least not by themselves.
Anyway, just another thought to add to the flood of mine !
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Willa
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tovlo4801
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WJFR wrote:
If we get bothered by seeing our child lying under a tree, it may be going too far to say, "he is just lazy." Who knows what he's doing under that tree? If we don't like it, we as parents can say, "no lying under trees" or "you can only lie under a tree for 30 minutes a day." We have that authority, and it will not hurt our child to obey this kind of directive, unless we heap "command upon command, grievous to be borne" as CM says.
But there are other alternatives, and I get the sense that unschoolers prefer to explore the other alternatives first. Perhaps they think, "Well, when did he START lying under the tree so much? Is this an interim between phases? Should I wait and see if he stops doing it on his own? Should I ask him? Has there been any change in his health recently? What's he doing when he's NOT lying under the tree? etc"
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I'm dipping my foot in the water again. :) I hope you don't mind me taking off on a little bit of a tangent from your post, Willa. I was so glad to see you write this because it melded with something I've been thinking about the last day or so. A personal rabbit trail has taken me toward discovering personality types. I've discovered that my own personality type is likely a rather "dreamy" sort of type. A type that on the outside I imagine might sometimes show behavior that could be interpreted as lazy. The thing is that just like any other type it has it's own unique strengths and weaknesses. When the comments about sitting under a tree in the backyard came up I couldn't help but think that for someone with a rather "dreamy" disposition, there could be a whole lot going on internally under that tree. Grand things could be being contemplated and solved inside the mind of the person sitting there. So I just wanted to add one additional question to the list of questions a parent might want to explore with their dreamy tree sitter. "What were you thinking about?" It might reveal a depth not imagined based on the physical inactivity.
I just think that we tend to view productivity in a somewhat narrow way. It's very possible that someone who could easily be labelled as "lazy" might be terribly internally productive in the thoughts they are working through in a quiet and still way while looking an awful lot like they are doing absolutely nothing.
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Chari
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| Posted: Jan 04 2006 at 12:07am | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
| Either the beer-drinking, TV-watching dude is a help to his poor aging mother, in which case she's probably glad to have him around despite his unimpressive hobbies. |
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Lissa???? You know my uncle?????? I thought you had never been to California???
and, I cannot tell you his other unimpressive hobbies.........
nevermind...........just ignore me ......back to reading........
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Chari...Take Up & Read
Dh Marty 27yrs...3 lovely maidens: Anne 24, Sarah 20 & Maddelyn 17 and 3 chivalrous sons: Matthew 22, Garrett 16 & Malachy 11
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Natalia
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MacBeth wrote:
Many folks here, in visiting the unschooling forum, are curious. Perhaps we have heard something about unschooling that makes us nervous, or something that makes unschooling seem like the answer to our prayers. |
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There are those (like me) that perceive in unschooling something that they lack- a sense of enjoyment, an ability to be in tune with my children, a respect for who they are and a trust in what they can do. I am not saying that these things can't be obtained other wise but, it is these qualities i have seen in those here that profess to unschool, that have attracted me to this unschooling forum.
I don't think that I could totally embrace unschooling but reading about it hear has had a definite impact in how I see homeschooling and, most of all, in how I actually homeschool.
MacBeth wrote:
| But in a limited medium like a BB, one misses the clues that tell when a person in curious or plain negative, and I don't think anyone is being just plain negative, but I do think that a serious discussion like this one in an open forum can seem more heated than it really is. Misinterpretations are a real concern (I misunderstand things ALL the time ), and I don't want anyone to feel uncomfortable on this board. |
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I personally think that you guys have handled the disagreements beautifully. I think that if we keep assuming the best intentions on the part of every one, we will go a long way in avoiding getting hurt. Also asking for clarification when in doubt helps .
MacBeth wrote:
| Here's a question for you all--would we benefit from separate forums for "unschooling debate" and "unschooling support"? Would we all feel more comfortable separating these topics? |
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I personally think that having two boards will dilute the discussion. I don't think people are interesting in debating for its own sake. It seems that people want answers and answers are not always easy to give so debate arises.
That is just the opinion of an outsider, meaning somebody that doesn't unschool but who has benefited from everything brought up in this forum.
Natalia
PS I am sorry that this post is OT but I had to say something somewhere :-)
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Leonie
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Natalia wrote:
There are those (like me) that perceive in unschooling something that they lack- a sense of enjoyment, an ability to be in tune with my children, a respect for who they are and a trust in what they can do. I am not saying that these things can't be obtained other wise but, it is these qualities i have seen in those here that profess to unschool, that have attracted me to this unschooling forum.
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I guess this is another reason why I prefer just one unschooling board - it is my hope that it allows for a broad and varying, individual/personal definition of unschooling.
I said, in an earlier thread to Tina, that not everyone has to unschool or unschool in the same way. I stand by that.
I think there is a definition of pure unschooling - many people call this radical unschooling.
And then there are other definitions of unschooling - Suzie Andres has one, so does Pat Farenga and Helen Hegener. These are more loose, more broad - and may look a lot like Real Learning, as described in Elizabeth's book.
I like the fact that people can come to the unschooling threads and take away that with which they feel most comfortable, be it a definition or a concept or an activity and idea.
I think, for me, unschooling means questioning my paradigms so, before I require anything or expect anything schooly from my children, I really question why.
And requiring only happens as a sort of last resort - after strewing and talking, giving it time, modelling, etc.
I think there is a fine line of differences and balance in unschooling - a lot of things come into it - personality and vision and my particular circumstances and the particular child.
I don't argue about it because I know there are always subtle differences.
I *do find that sharing my vision with my children helps - and I try to share some of that joy on these boards.
And I learn a lot from all these discussions!
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Mary G
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I second the "don't split the discussion" vote.
I too garner so much from the discussion -- sometimes I agree and say YES and other times I just file the comment for possible later "use". But I do the same with parenting discussions -- I have to parent the way I think is right for my children, just as I have to homeschool the way that is right for my children.
I think these discussions have been fabulous -- like chatting on the phone with many dear friends -- sometimes you'll agree, sometimes you won't but you wouldn't want to miss the chance to have the discussion in the first place.
Y'all are so helpful and have taught me so much in the year-and-a-half of this board's existence. 
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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Willa
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Sarah wrote:
| I think what Elizabeth might have meant about the passion and service thing was more detailed than the big picture. I am passionate about mothering, and motherhood is service. I am not passionate about thinking up a dinner menu each week. |
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I think this rings very true. It's interesting though, I went through 17 years of structured schooling and I still have some trouble putting together the "big picture" and the nitty gritty details that it takes to get you there. Somehow, all that structure didn't get me there. When I started progressing was when I had the motivation, something I really cared about for MYSELF -- wifehood and motherhood, for instance.
Some of the examples of hard work that Elizabeth and others are mentioning seem to me to be examples of hard work *bought into because of personal vision/commitment*. That to me, seems to be a version of unschooling -- learning and doing because the learning and doing is personally meaningful.
juliecinci wrote:
What I was trying to get at is how it happens that education and vocation are made the priority in such a way that our kids bought in.
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This is a big question for me too. Elizabeth's family is undoubtedly successful, there is no question about that. When I look at families where the kids buy into their parents'visions and work ethics, WHAT is it that makes the kids buy in? Is it modelling by example, or exhorting, or directing, or punishing?
Surely the "coercive" aspect is only a tiny percentage of what works, and the huge underwater part of the iceberg is the *other* things, the modelling by example, the guidance, the discussions.
Sarah mentioned the example of the son who wanted to give up the musical instrument and is glad that his father kept him at it.
When I used to read Growing without Schooling magazine, these were the sorts of issues that came up regularly. The answers are not clearcut, are they? for anyone, whether they are unschoolers, or not. Clearly, it would be better if the kid WANTED to continue of his own volition. But since he doesn't, what's the best solution? I don't think there is one easy answer, whether "force him to continue" or "let him drop it." The parent would have to look at the child, and at the whole picture, and make sure he (the parent) wasn't operating out of some wish-fulfillment or other attachment of his own, not having to do with the child's well-being.
Julie talked about meta-messages. In this case, could a parent share his or her reasons for wanting the child to continue? Could the dad share best by just saying, "I want you to continue, and maybe you'll see why someday?" It goes back to what Julie said about just HOW kids buy into their parents' messages. Which to me is a tricky question. Parenting is a very mysterious thing. Sometimes our weaknesses are turned to good in our parenting, and our strengths become our failings.
One other thing that occurs to me as a "tough question" in regards to unschooling. I have 6 boys. Sometimes boys, at least, don't seem to LIKE all the angst and pondering and negotiating that I am inclined to do when they're resisting. They would prefer someone to just tell them to hop, and specify how far! I do not think this is always demeaning. Some boys, to some extent, seem to see it as empowering and challenging, as long as it's a sort of game. It's hard to explain. But that's one reason that you hear men tell stories about their mean coach or the way they jumped when their dad spoke, and they are proud of that! Perhaps some unschoolers would think this is demeaning and always negative, but I see that men, at least, sometimes seem to propel themselves by this kind of counter-energy. I do not think this is purely a social, cultural thing; or rather, I think that social, cultural things that manifest themselves across cultures usually have a deeply human reason for their existence.
My 12yo is presently in a phase where he argues and negotiates when I ask him to do something. He used to jump to obey almost BEFORE I asked him, and now he gets a glint in his eyes and drags his heels! I know it's a developmental stage and I can SEE that he wants me to reaffirm the boundaries. He doesn't want me turning red and screaming at him and acting like a child myself, of course! He wants to see authority that is firm and light, that he can respect. And he is getting where he needs to feel like more of a man, so masculine authority is more important to him. When I look at him as an individual, I can see some of his needs that he wouldn't necessarily be able to put into words himself.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Unschooling: the Tough Questions
