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Martha
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| Posted: April 30 2009 at 1:42pm | IP Logged
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some links of interests on the Swanns and accelerated learning:
Joyce
http://www.home-school.com/Articles/#JSwann
her dd alexandra
http://www.home-school.com/Articles/#ASwann
her ds
http://www.home-school.com/Articles/phs25-benjaminswann.html
I'm slowly reading through some of this.
and talking to my dh aobut it.
I'm not sure I understand the question "What si the point of a master at age 16?"
What is the value of any level of degree? Does the value go down if done younger than average? what about older average? I'm not being snarky, I'm sincerely asking because I've never equated any of my children's educational value with their age.
I keep comming back to structure and discipline being the big factors to her success.
I already dedicate our mornings before 12:30 to academics, but I'll admit they coudl do a lot more during that time. (like not go to the bathroom 10 times to avoid their long division work!)
I don't think we'd ever be so harsh about time off. I can't imagine not having 2 weeks for christmas and easter, plus 3 weeks in June. Not to mention the "light" sessions while I'm puking sick with HMG while pregnant.
And when she did it, accrediation was more relivant.
There's no way I could afford to have all my kids enrolled in an accredited program K = 12. Esp if I was basicly paying that enrollment fee 2 or 3 times per kid in one 12 month time span. (YIKE$!) It seems to me the key there is not what you use, but that you have a plan (yours or a providers) of what to do next each step of the way.
Now if I were to do it (I made a spreadsheet last night for this!  ) I'd create my little spreadsheet for each child of material/subject I want covered K-12. There'd be boxes next to each one to be "checked" when completed and dated. Rather than use an outsourced diploma, I'd probably go the route of CLEP, AP, and such to back-up our homeschool diploma.
I spoke to dh about this last night and he very quietly said, "oh good, I don't have to have this conversation then." Apparently since my dh started working from home, he's noticed how much free time the older kids have and he isn't pleased by it. He likes the idea and thinks they need the disicpline of sitting down to focus for a set amount of extended time. He likes that because we homeschool they have lots of free time, but he thinks 3 - 4 hours per day is not a lot to ask. He was planning on making this a request when we started back up in July.
Now neither of us view education as a "hurry up and get done" or a "hurry up and move out" kind of thing. To us education is on-going and that's not going to change no matter what method or materials we use or how quickly we progress through them. And I've never really thought of college and moving out and being 18 yrs old as a combo deal either. If they do, then that'll be fine. But I'm perfectly happy with them continuing to live nad learn and earn income while living with us too. I would not push for them to move out and into debt though. That's a huge factor foe us too.
Again, my oldest is only 14, so I have no doubt a LOT of my perspective is yet to be formed.
I guess I just don't see it as accelerated, to me that implies speeding through with no real learning or something?
It seems to me she put in the same amount of hours as we all probably will, she just did it in concentrated 3 hours segments. 
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Martha
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Red Cardigan
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Not a fan of accelerated learning for its own sake, but fine with it when a child is constantly outpacing levels in a field and shows a real talent for it (in theory; we stay pretty much at grade level in my house, which is also just fine).
But as far as college at home, I've thought about it, and discussed it a bit with my girls. We have a neighbor who used an online university for his Masters and thus was able to get the degree while still working and raising their five children (three of whom they adopted around the time he was finishing the degree, IIRC). So I know an excellent education is perfectly possible this way.
Other homeschool families have done the "Live at home and get your core curriculum or an associates degree at the local or community college" route; again, there are a lot of positives toward doing this.
I think what it boils down to are a few questions:
1. Can you afford a four-year degree? At a state university, or a private university, or a Catholic university, etc.? Or will your child be graduating with more in debt than they could reasonably pay off within one to three years of post-collegiate work? Will the child have to postpone a vocation (priesthood, religious life, or marriage) in order to pay back these debts?
2. Does the child know what he/she wants to study and why? Do his future job plans require a specific degree? Or are you in an income bracket where this does not matter (e.g. child can change majors multiple times and/or study without future job prospects without this affecting your family)?
3. Is the child more interested in a career field in which some technical training and/or apprentice-type experience is more important than an immediate degree? Is he not inclined by temperament, etc. to want to go to college immediately after high school?
4. Do you think the child needs some aspect of the "live-away college experience?" Why or why not? Is this more important than considerations 1 or 2 or 3?
Each family is going to answer these four questions quite differently. For some of us at-home college, either online or via a local or community college, is going to make more sense than an expensive four-year degree from a private school; for others, the child's burning desire to study something very specific and work in a field in which degrees are mandatory will make the equation look entirely different.
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Elizabeth
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I have just two seconds before dashing to baseball. I see a very big distinction between getting a degree at home via online college when you are much younger than the average college age and doing so when you are working and raising a family. I also see a big difference between living at home while attending college courses on campus and staying home while only pursuing a college degree via the internet.
Also, I didn't mean that a child shouldn't work to his ability. Of course, if I have a child who is capable of more advanced work, they do that work. OTOH, if my 11year old is ready for high school literature in terms of reading ability, I don't hand her Tess of the D'Urbervilles or The Scarlet Letter. By the same token, she might be capable of high school biology but not ready to have the whole of human reproduction. Likewise, she might be able to read high school theology, but no way should be exposed to theology of the body on a typical high school level. That's what I meant when I said I wasn't for acceleration. But I think that that literature, that biology, and that theology are a part of high school.So, for those reasons and others, high school graduation at 11 wouldn't happen here.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Erin
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Marilyn
Doing university by correspondence is very popular with many homeschool families here in Australia. In fact my two closest friends children are doing this. But they start this in their late teens.
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Willa
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Martha wrote:
| I'm not sure I understand the question "What si the point of a master at age 16?" |
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Some questions that come to mind related to that one are:
--What do you do with it?
--How seriously does the academic or professional world take it?
--Is it worth what you miss?
Three hours a day is not that much to spend on something that is valuable, but education is not just getting through material, it's the interaction of the material with the individual. Though I agree with you Martha that children shouldn't be held back because of conventional expectations of what a child can do, I do believe that a real education takes some time.
I think many 14 year olds are perfectly capable of doing college undergrad level work. I'm not as sure about 11 year olds. I know that my 14 year olds often go through college-level material, as do most homeschool children I know, but not to get degrees so much as for other reasons.
The fascination of the Swanns to me is that she could run a restaurant PLUS have all those kids plus keep going year round. I remember reading a loong time ago when Joyce got run over by their van. The day after she was home from the hospital, I believe, they were back at the kitchen table working again, even though she was dizzy with pain.
here
I've always admired her though I wouldn't do it that way myself.
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Tonya
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There seems to be two different ideas on this thread. One is whether to push your children academically early on. Some of my children would have been ready academically for college level material fairly early. However, I have always had them spread out rather than up (except in Math). My kids have had many different hobbies over the years that might or might lead them to different careers. They have had a blast following their interests. My husband and I are fairly academic but I want my kids to enjoy learning and see it as an adventure. Also, as it has been mentioned previously, there are concepts brought out at the college level that younger children are not ready to understand. Just because a child can read a book and understand the general idea, they may not have enough life experience to understand all of the different levels of it.
The second idea is whether to homeschool college. After having several children go off to college, I think that it would be very difficult for me to homeschool college. In her last year of high school, my oldest daughter became restless and a little difficult to be around. She was ready to fly the nest. I remember thinking how much easier my second, then 15 year old daughter was. I knew that she would never act that way. Then that daughter turned 17 and she too became restless and a little difficult to be around. But my then 15 year old son was such a delight and I knew that he would never act that way. He was perfectly content. Then he turned 17 and.......well he is still seventeen and we have another year of homeschooling and it is not looking easy! My oldest daughter (now a college graduate) called me the other day and apologized for her senior year. She is now an admissions counselor and deals with juniors and seniors in high school as her job. I would keep our children home if they were going to accumulate a great deal of debt but the oldest two have been very blessed. At least in our family, it seemed like it was time to have a little bit of independence. And I like the young ladies that they have grown into. They are not perfect but they still love their Faith and they love their family.
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MarilynW
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Erin wrote:
Marilyn
Doing university by correspondence is very popular with many homeschool families here in Australia. In fact my two closest friends children are doing this. But they start this in their late teens. |
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Thanks for this Erin - this was really my question - not so much the accelerated degree as the online/correspondence degree for a college age child.
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Martha wrote:
I keep comming back to structure and discipline being the big factors to her success.
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Martha - I so agree with you. I don't think that having structure and discipline means that you are not having a real education. I think it can free the children up to have a lot more time to pursue their own interests. One of the things that frustrates me with my slowness and exhaustion of late pregnancy is that school drags through the day - so my children end up with less free time. I would love to be done by lunch each day - just not sure how to do this.
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MarilynW
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Willa wrote:
[
The fascination of the Swanns to me is that she could run a restaurant PLUS have all those kids plus keep going year round. I remember reading a loong time ago when Joyce got run over by their van. The day after she was home from the hospital, I believe, they were back at the kitchen table working again, even though she was dizzy with pain.
here
I've always admired her though I wouldn't do it that way myself. |
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Me too Willa. I feel a little wimpy too when I read about her. And I think it worked for her family and their goals. I love the link you gave - I had never read that.
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MarilynW
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Just to add that though my original question was not actually about accelerated learning or getting graduate degrees at 12 - and I would not do this. BUT, I think it has worked very well for the Swanns and I don't think I would hurry to assume that their children were miserable or missed out on their childhoods. It would be interesting to read the book that Kim linked to by Alexa Swann to see her perspective.
I also think that a few years ago much more was expected of children and teenagers - at 16 they were usually working, they got married earlier and took more responsibility than today's teens. Teenagers in our day are pampered - their lives consist of going to school, socializing with peers, being chauffered around to sports and other extra-curricular activities by parents, and having way too much provided for them by their parents (ipods, cellphones,computers, cars, etc
etc etc)
So whilst I think that children should keep their innocence and childlike qualities and enjoy their childhood as long as possible - I don't think this means we should raise spoiled, lazy children - and I do think that often homeschooled children from large families are more responsible and less self-focused. I think that we can definitely find some positive lessons from the way the Swanns and others like them educate their children.
(And Martha - I have actually been out of my pyjamas by 9am all this week - honest!! )
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Martha
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Marilyn!
You have no idea how often my house is clean and the schooling is done and I'm making dinner and
I'm the only person in the house still in PJs 
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dancingmama
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I can't see my kids having college done that early. My 19 year old is still really trying to figure out what she wants to major in at college. Right now it is dance and art.
My second one wants to be a equine vet. All I can say is that it will be good that she will be in her 20s when it is time for her to start vet school.
My third daughter, who is 8 wants to fly for the Army. LOL
My fourth one wants to be a dentist.
My fifth one, who is only five and doesn't read yet is clueless. LOL
My little guy is three. No aspirations for him yet.
I really don't see the point of accelerating the kids, unless the kids really accel at something. I am a big advocate of junior college to start things off. It is a big savings of money. But, even then, I worry about my second daughter taking classes there. There are some professors who do NOT like having high school aged students in their classes. Plus, there is the darker side of what is at college, namely, drugs. My son's godfather is a business professor and he really warns me about the atmosphere.
I have a friend who's daughter skipped kindergarten and she graduated from high school when she was 16. She stayed home and taught at a dance studio. She is just now at a junior college starting out. My friend said that she wishes that she hadn't pushed so hard.
But, just because my kids aren't ready for that, doesn't mean that there aren't other kids out there. I hadn't had the chance to read that article, but I can't understand how that many kids finished school work that fast.
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Martha
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dancingmama wrote:
| I can't understand how that many kids finished school work that fast. |
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2 things to note:
the kids were not going off to college at 13 - they were distance learning for the vast majority of it.
I've been inspired by Swann this week. Altho I don't want to "push" my kids (she didn't either btw), I do want to dedicate a set amount of time to serious concentration of our academics. By doing that this week, we did 2 weeks worth of work in one so we're taking today off (which I'm certain Swann would never have done! ). We did not skip any of the weekly lessons I had previously laid out, nor did we do less quality of work. In fact, we added in some painting yesterday, which we often didn't have time for before.
I stayed in the room as often as possible, to assist, to motiviate/encourage, to say "focus on your studies", or answer questions at the moment so they don't have to wait to finsih their work.
There's some grumbling about the change, but not nearly as much as I expected. There really wasn't as much of a fight as I thought there'd have been.
So I don't know that I'd suggest this for everyone. It does take some serious organizational effort and dedecation of MY time too. I have to be far more militant about guarding our "school" hours than I was before. But I could see the benefits of doing this even if the goal is not a masters degree by 16. 
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Bookswithtea
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Martha, don't you have a new baby in the house? How are you pulling this off with an infant?
Also, what kinds of different things are you doing to guard schooltime? I'm not interested in the accelerated thing, but I am incredibly frustrated at times with how many interruptions happen and would like to improve that aspect of our school day.
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Books, this is also a big frustration for us. I've tried to enforce the "no-phone-answering" rule, but especially with older college students at home there are a variety of interruptions. Do you think we could start a whole new thread on this topic? I'm sure others are in the same boat.
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Bookswithtea
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stellamaris wrote:
| Books, this is also a big frustration for us. I've tried to enforce the "no-phone-answering" rule, but especially with older college students at home there are a variety of interruptions. Do you think we could start a whole new thread on this topic? I'm sure others are in the same boat. |
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Sure, go ahead and I'll follow. The phone is only a small portion of the problem for me. Its also dental/doctor appts! 
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Taffy
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Martha that is so motivating for me to hear right now! We have been having a very frustrating year with all the interruptions in our "table time" and I am SO frustrated!
I am definitely finding that extra kids means extra planning is necessary on my part. And extra self-discipline too!
 Thanks, Martha, for showing us it can be done! (And I totally see what you are saying - about just trying to get more done in the day and how it frees up more time for fun stuff and that you aren't meaning to get your kids to college early.  I'm in the same boat.)
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Martha
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| Posted: May 08 2009 at 12:50pm | IP Logged
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books - I replied on the interruptions thread...
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Martha
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: College at home?
