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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: March 28 2009 at 6:19pm | IP Logged
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stellamaris wrote:
The greater part of excellent writing occurs before the pen ever makes a mark on the paper; it occurs in the thought processes of the writer. Discussion of historical events or literary themes develops the ability of the student to analyze, organize, and identify important points/themes. Writing is not just grammar and mechanics, but it is the conveying of (hopefully) insightful thought. So one might see history and literature as essential to writing.
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This is very helpful to me. I am going to chew on this awhile, I think. Do you have any thoughts about how this might affect the choice of literature re: Natalia's question below?
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Martha
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coming from another perspective... I have a particuliarly difficult time deciding what is "high school" or college prep level literature because I read almost everythiing on the Kolbe lit plans by 6th grade in public school. I had already read most college level lit by the end of jr high. (And then went on to literally flunk out of every lit class because I was bored out of my mind.  )
To ME I read those lit plans and think of all the sunny afternoons I passed reading those under the overpass when I skipped school and have to wrap my brain around my 9th grader reading them for the first time. 
So, I'm rather curious as to how level is determined too!
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Willa
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Martha wrote:
| coming from another perspective... I have a particuliarly difficult time deciding what is "high school" or college prep level literature because I read almost everythiing on the Kolbe lit plans by 6th grade in public school. |
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Did you mean to say Kolbe? or Sonlight?
If it IS Kolbe, I think for most 6th graders it would be worth another go-through in high school and/or college. But SL, yep, I read a lot of those books or at least those kinds of books by jr high too. I suppose it's different reading them more formally though, rather than in the afternoon instead of homework like I did.
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: March 28 2009 at 7:44pm | IP Logged
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stellamaris wrote:
The greater part of excellent writing occurs before the pen ever makes a mark on the paper; it occurs in the thought processes of the writer. Discussion of historical events or literary themes develops the ability of the student to analyze, organize, and identify important points/themes. Writing is not just grammar and mechanics, but it is the conveying of (hopefully) insightful thought. So one might see history and literature as essential to writing.
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I absolutely concur with this assessment. I think this is the strength of Sonlight. This is also why I particularly like the history themed IEW lessons.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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LisaR
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Martha wrote:
| coming from another perspective... I have a particuliarly difficult time deciding what is "high school" or college prep level literature because I read almost everythiing on the Kolbe lit plans by 6th grade in public school. I had already read most college level lit by the end of jr high.So, I'm rather curious as to how level is determined too! |
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I snuck in books to school everyday and read them under my desk. I know I read the Good Master and the Singing Tree in 2nd Grade. I was bored to tears!!! my older two kids have already read most of Sonlight's books,
(Eight books on the SL 7 list are actually used in a history co-op we are in- for grades 3-6,- read aloud for grade 3 if need to- 7 and 8 grade get those as well as some harder choices.)
however, my sons do not care to write and develop from them, and yes, we've tried IEW, and are still using it with mixed results in the co-op.
It took ds going to high school and taking an intense honors English with a brand new teacher who had them diagramming and breaking down and analyzing (SO not me!!) for him to confidently approach writing.
I think of how I dropped Voyages in English and Seton's grammar many times. I just could not stand it!!
Dialoging and extemporaneous thought (think open ended creative writing questions or even some of Andrew Pudwea's stuff- "dress ups", ly words, etc)just did not jive like this for him.
My older two have told me they think of English grammar like a math problem.
again, so not me, but I need to find ways to teach to them, and to the way they respond to writing and tests.
When I read Joe's papers, they are very mechanical, almost stiff "sounding" to me, yet he is pulling A's.
I guess we all have a different voice.
Joe read some Steinbeck, some F. Scott Fitz., Willa Cather, Harper Lee, Catcher in the Rye, and three I can't recall freshman year.
He asked me to check out Moby Dick over Christmas from the library, he said the kids read that 8th grade..
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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LisaR
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ok, this is my question. what would you suggest for an 8th grader/freshman who LOVES to read but feels like writing about the book "ruins it". (ruins the good and enjoyable experience of the book?)
I just asked and this was the reply.
My boys tend to compartmentalize and so I guess this makes sense.
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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LisaR
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stellamaris wrote:
For this reason, mathematics needs to be consistent, but not so over-emphasized that it crowds out other subjects that require different modes of thinking.
Looking at it from this perspective might make it possible for you to meld "how you think education should be" with traditional academics.
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thank you!!  this makes so much sense to me. I just want to make sure I am teaching to what my kids NEED, not what I WANT, kwim?? I feel like this is part of the beauty of homeschooling and sometimes I think my rabbit trails as a teacher are for MY enjoyment , not theirs, and now I have kids old enough to tell me what they think really works for them, or what they feel is/was lacking, and it's humbling/hard, you know??
and there is an emotional run on sentence!!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
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Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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KackyK
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I find that searching on our local public high school's website very interesting. I've been able to gauge a bit with what we are doing, with what they are doing. I mostly look at the English teacher's pages. Some of them post their syllabi and book lists. Sometimes I think, oh yeah, we could do that one, forgot about it...or other times I have been unfortunately not shocked to see books like The Golden Compass on their lists.
I have been trying for the life of me to remember the order of history that I did in high school. I remember the World Hist in 9th, then the AP American History in 11th and Govt in 12th...but 10th is drawing a blank. I know it wasn't Ancient...no idea.
I'm impressed with all of you for remembering what you have read in the past. I'm lucky to remember what I read last year
Did anyone do IEW for high school along with SL before? I've never done IEW either, but thinking we might need this. Or do you think if we follow along with SL pretty well, we won't need it?
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Natalia
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Martha wrote:
So, I'm rather curious as to how level is determined too! |
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I was looking at SL's high school cores. Core 100 for example has books like Tom Sawyer, Amos Fortune, Call of the Wild, Dear Mr. Henshaw, From the Mix-up Files, Maniac Magee, My Side of the Mountain. None of this seem High School material. So I wonder why the chose this particular books for a High School core. If they are studying American History in Depth why didn't they choose more classical American Literature? Maybe it is because this particular core could serve as a transition to higher level literature? maybe they can concentrate on teaching certain skills without having to worry about the content getting in the way.
I just wonder what their rational is to choose this particular books. It seems like a stark contrast when you compare Kolbe's 9th grade list with SL's...
Maybe what is important is not so much the books themselves but how you use them. Maybe SL uses their books as launching pads for some more in depth writing and thinking.
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Natalia
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Kacky,
I have never used IEW in conjunction with SL (we haven't done SL in a while) but this year my dd is using IEW's Window to the World, and I think it is an excellent book. It guides the student through the process of reading and analyzing a text as well as how to write lit. analysis essays.
With my younger son we have been using the History Themed lessons and have been very pleased with them. I also noticed tonight, as I was poking around in their site, that they have an Excellence in literature course for both American and British literature that look really good. I wonder if they could be use in conjunction with SL or if it would be an over-kill.
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Elizabeth
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I started a new thread here that is specific to how to modify Sonlight Core 7. I cut and pasted all the pertinent posts from this thread (please let me know if I missed something--I'm cutting and pasting with a nursing baby on my lap). That leaves this thread for general discussion of high school literature and Sonlight and Kolbe and how it all can work.Please try to keep the posts encouraging for families who have discerned that keeping teens home is what works best for their families.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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stellamaris
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Bookswithtea wrote:
This is very helpful to me. I am going to chew on this awhile, I think. Do you have any thoughts about how this might affect the choice of literature re: Natalia's question below? |
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I've been thinking about this over the weekend. I thought about how I used books with my own four older children throughout their high school years. When considering books, there are three possible purposes:
1. You want to persuade or influence your child to adopt a certain point of view, e.g., you assign a book on modest dressing to your teenage daughter. This has nothing to do with academics, but does promote interesting discussion  and, of course, moral formation. I kept such books to a minimum (1-2 per semester at the most).
2. You want to enrich the child's understanding of a certain time period or place and engage them with a story that will "stick" and help them remember important people, place, or events in history. Here any level of book is useful, from picture books to advanced novels. I think this is the use SL has in mind for most of their selections. Sometimes an easier book has a little more impact because the student doesn't have to struggle to comprehend it. Per semester, I'd say about 1/2 or a little more of our reading time was spent on such books.
3. You want to expose your student to great literature, the Great Conversation, and the skills of literary analysis. Here is where you need to select "classical" works and really delve into them. You only need about 4 or fewer per semester, but the key is to discuss, analyze, and dissect the work. One problem with this type of literature, especially for the 9th and 10th grade levels, is that a more developed understanding of the human condition and life is usually necessary to "get" what the author is trying to convey, so you will have to point out key concepts frequently. For example, we read Beowulf with our 8th and 9th grade students and discussed some of the Christian symbolism, contrasting it with some of the remnant pagan ideas in that work. The children needed help to see both of these elements. We spent several weeks on this work. For the teacher, this type of literature is the most time-consuming to teach (you HAVE to read it yourself, make notes, be prepared to discuss key points, etc.), but it has the greatest pay-back in terms of mental development. It also is the richest source for writing assignments.A Cliff Notes Guide or other study guide can really help here. I noted when we used Kolbe that most of their selections were of this type, and it was a little overwhelming for some of my students. I personally prefer to limit these more intensive literature works to a few a semester, as I think it is the analysis, discussion, and critical writing that is important, not getting through a huge reading list...they can't read it all in high school and hopefully will have a long lifetime to pursue classical literature.
In summary, I would say to think about what you are wanting to accomplish with each type of literature. For the more advanced material, I stuck with "Great Books" writers (Homer, Virgil,Shakespeare, Augustine, Dante, etc.) and 19th and 20th century writers of note, keeping the really anti-religious works until the later high school years and adding in some of the writings of the saints (Story of a Soul, Divine Mercy in My Soul, The Dialogues of Saint Catherine, The Interior Castle). Remember to include some poetry, too!
If your worry is testing, that should be addressed as a separate item. Use SAT review books, programs, or online prep to prepare your student for the SAT's, especially if you are using Saxon math for the upper levels.
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Caroline
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Elizabeth
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Caroline,
I just want to take a moment to tell you how happy I am that you've joined our conversations. I'm really benefiting from your wisdom and thoughtful musings 
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Natalia
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Caroline,
I am heading out the door but I wanted to thank you for your post. It is a jewel! I love clear thinkers, it helps my muddled brain.
Elizabeth,
I apologize if any of the comments I made were discouraging. I am just talking out loud to try to answer my own questions. I didn't mean to sound negative.
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StephanieA
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What Caroline has described is very similar to what we have done so far. We choose 2 Shakespeare plays a year in high school and use lit guides about 1-2 times a semester for other pieces of literature. After that analysing gets too tedious and becomes overkill, IMHO.
We have used literature guides for Tales of Two Cities (Progeny Press), 2 guides from CHC (a play and Chesteron's poems), Animal Farm, etc., Novel Inquires (Julius Caesar). After that the HSer reads from history that he is studying or simply anything that appeals or looks interesting to him (or me
I am always on the lookout for good study guides, especially written from a Catholic perspective. I wish CHC would come out with some more. Some of the ones that they have chosen to do (The Betrothed and Path to Rome) aren't as interesting and fast-paced as other books. To do guides with them really drags. Path to Rome (Belloc) was interesting though as a read without a guide to one son. The other couldn't get it finished.
Blessings,
Stephanie
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Martha
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I have a question about the literal reading of the matierals...
what do you do when they HATE slowly reading a material? for several of my kids, it's less argument about reading the materials and more about having to read it for an extended time when they would normal be done reading it in a few days on their own pace.
I have to admit this frustrated me too and still does.
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LisaR
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Elizabeth wrote:
| Please try to keep the posts encouraging for families who have discerned that keeping teens home is what works best for their families. |
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oh I am sorry. I'm not sure what I'm doing with my 13 year old, and like Natalia, was just thinking out loud here.
If anyone would like to PM me with suggestions to my questions, I'd sure appreciate it!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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Martha wrote:
what do you do when they HATE slowly reading a material? for several of my kids, it's less argument about reading the materials and more about having to read it for an extended time when they would normal be done reading it in a few days on their own pace.
I have to admit this frustrated me too and still does. |
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this is what my sons have communicated to me is a struggle. (and for me , too  )
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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StephanieA
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Keep the study guides to only 1-2 a semester and only for books that "need" analyzing or simply might be more interesting to analyze.
Most of their reading should be just for "fun", reading at their own pace, for enjoyment and edification.
BTW, I gave my daughter (8th grade) a Hillside Guide to the Bronze Bow to begin last week. She did the whole guide in 4 days because she couldn't stand to not know what was going to happen.
HA! I don't do many guides with kids below 9th grade for this very reason. The material isn't too difficult and doing the guide become a chore at times. But we did find questions to discuss and develop thoughts with.
Blessings,
Stephanie41
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stellamaris
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Thank you for your kind comments.
Wrt children wanting to read through the book to "find out what happens", I let them! Then we go carefully through the book in detail. Just because they read it, doesn't mean they gleaned all that could be gleaned from it. The type of questions that ask the student to "predict what comes next" are meaningless if you let them read ahead, but everything else, vocabulary, background information, identifying writing techniques such as foreshadowing, character development, etc. is still worth investigating. As far as the prediction questions, every reader already naturally does this as they read (I wonder what will happen next? How do they solve this problem?), so I don't think you lose anything by letting them read it through once. In fact, this is the first step given in How to Read a Book, an excellent book about approaching literature at the high school/college level. My children used this as a text during high school.
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Caroline
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Sonlight for High School
