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folklaur
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| Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:45am | IP Logged
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LisaR wrote:
I could say you get what you pay for with a secular education- maybe a good prof here or there, maybe some really damaging ones.
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I have come to understand, that it is a totally false sense of security to believe that just because your child goes to a "good" Catholic college, that they will be in an environmemt that is truly "good."
It is like living in a gated community and thinking that that makes you "safe."
It doesn't.
It is a totally false sense of security. It is a lie,
It is just that, at "good" catholic colleges, they work very, very hard to be sure that these things are kept quiet and secret. What is always the most important, is not what is best for the student, but the "image" of the college.
Secular colleges - even those considered "party schools" - can still have WONDEREFUL teachers, a STRONG Catholic community, and a safe experience for your child. Plus, there isn't the same need to keep their warts secret, so problems can actually be addressed.
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CKwasniewski
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Cactus mouse,
I am so sorry to hear that you and your daughter have had these troubles. I will be praying for you.
Of course, no place is perfect. At small places when problems arise, there is a sympathetic community of people who can deal with them and who want to help. Unfortunately, some colleges even in the Newman Guide are trying to reform themselves but they are not yet thoroughly Catholic in all the "nooks and crannies."
***There is such a thing as an "oath of fidelity" which some Catholic colleges insist on--at WCC it is even part of the contract. It is basically an oath not to teach anything which goes against the Catholic faith and teachings. (At WCC even the 2 non-Catholic teachers take it.) There is also a "mandatum" for the theology professors, which is even stronger--they have to be teaching "with the church".
Here are some links which explain more:
Mandatum
Profession of faith
The professors swear fidelity anew in the opening mass of each school year. It's taken very seriously.
ck
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Mary G
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Another thing to keep in mind is that college is the last step before the "real world" ... tests of faith and folks thinking or teaching non-truth will be around our kids forever ... and, unfortunately we can't always be there to protect them from that.
Prayers for ALL our kids and their discernment of college and later!
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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Mackfam
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I wanted to plug Thomas Aquinas College in Nashville. My dad is a professor there. They are run by the Dominican Sisters of St. Cecelia, and all professors teaching in the area of theology sign the mandatum that CK linked to above. They offer a top notch nursing program!
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Jen Mackintosh
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Wildflowers and Marbles
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Mary G
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Mackfam wrote:
| I wanted to plug Thomas Aquinas College in Nashville. My dad is a professor there. They are run by the Dominican Sisters of St. Cecelia, and all professors teaching in the area of theology sign the mandatum that CK linked to above. They offer a top notch nursing program! |
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And I believe they're moving to put in more dorm-space? It is a lovely spot they have in the rolling hills of Nashville! Awesome!
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MaryG
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Mackfam
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It is beautiful there, Mary! But, I'm slightly biased since it's home!
I'm not sure about adding the dorm space on campus. I do know the Dominican sister's order in Nashville is growing so fast and so exponentially (thanks be to God!) that they've been adding to the sister's facilities - a new chapel and motherhouse and a wing for the sisters is all in the works. My dad thinks it hilarious to see Mother screaming into the parking lot in a big van amidst rush hour traffic on West End in Nashville and a flood of sisters bouncing out to classes. 
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Jen Mackintosh
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LisaR
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cactus mouse wrote:
LisaR wrote:
I could say you get what you pay for with a secular education- maybe a good prof here or there, maybe some really damaging ones.
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Please, please keep in mind, that even small, private Catholic colleges, that get "great" reviews, can have awful, horrible, lousy professors who damage your child's faith. |
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I would hope that those who sign a mandatum or oath would then be instantly fired or have some serious recourse.
with Steubenville, I would tell people it is not heaven on earth, and in admissions I would actually advise parents NOT to send their kids there if they thought it was going to be perfect, or "reform" their child, etc.
There were girls pregnant. there were drugs. there was alchohol. there were some kind of questionable teachers.
but the positive peer pressure and the "norm" and the standard and lifestyle was in favor of authentic Catholic living, in all areas, in and outside the classroom, on and off campus.
that beign said. I've done some research. it is interesting that some of these schools such as benedictine and belmont abbey, jsut to name a few, have a Catholic student body hovering at 55-70%, where at Steubenville, Christendom, Ave maria, etc it is 99%.
not saying that is bad necessarily, just something I never thought of. I assumed ALL of those authentic Catholic colleges on the list drew pretty much only Catholic students/faculty!!???
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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Mary G wrote:
Don't forget that Mt. St. Mary's gives scholarships to children of Catholic school personnel ....  |
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and Marian College in Indy give between 50-100% scholarships to Dicescan Employees kids!!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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Elizabeth
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LisaR wrote:
I could say you get what you pay for with a secular education- maybe a good prof here or there, maybe some really damaging ones.
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Wow! We got a bargain then. Our experience at GMU has been very positive. Our son has had several good professors and many, many visiting lecturers who have been excellent. In the one instance of anti-Catholicism, he was supposed to write a regular response paper to a lecture he heard. He knew something wasn't right in the way the Church's role had been presented, so he turned to the campus minister (it's a FOCUS ministry).That priest put him in touch with the diocese historian, who helped him with the research. Michael wrote the response and the professor was so impressed he sent it via email to everyone in the class along with his public apology.
My son has an opportunity for confession and spiritual direction once a week. The campus minister is at most of his soccer games.There is a lively and vibrant faith community. Last fall, it was hard for Michael to be away from home while our family was in crisis in the time before and after Sarah's birth. Fr. Peter stayed very close to Michael during that time. Michael was in the chapel at adoration with all the FOCUS ministers the morning before the baby was born and when the need for blood became known, five people (or more) left that chapel to go roll up their sleeves for me. While Sarah was in the NICU, Fr. Peter drove out to the hospital (a good 45 minute drive) to visit me twice and then he baptized our baby. We had no previous relationship to him before Michael went to GMU.
Mary is right: this is the last step into the real world. And the real world will challenge faith at every turn. As I look at my current crop of teenagers, I recognize how critical it is that they are ready for those challenges before they leave home. Like teaching them how to find information, I think we need to teach them how to find appropriate spiritual direction. And then, of course, we have to cover them with prayer, because they *will* stumble and they will question.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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crusermom
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My DS is considering Notre Dame for next fall. I have my hesitations and want him to take good look at some other places before making a final decision.
But, I agree with Mary and know that no matter where he goes he can probably find the spiritual nourishment they need.
Mary
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Mary G
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Mary: we have a good family friend (actually a few) who went to ND and not only got a fabulous education, but also kept and built their faith, and this in the midst of some of the more liberal leadership.
Prayers for your son's discernment ... God will place him where He wants him!
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MaryG
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Matilda
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You know, I didn't even know that UD was a Catholic college when I applied. It was not a factor in my decision making process at all. That is a common criticism of UD, that it has lost it's Catholic identity. And I know for a fact that some departments are not as faithful to the Magisterium as others. I never heard of a mandatum while I was there so I can't speak to that.
My story was one of a cradle catholic who never received any religious education other than very weak CCD for an hour mostly every week and public school the rest of the time. I discovered my faith while I was there, but it wasn't from the professors. It was the other groups of kids I met. There was a very large group of faithful students and directors who made all the difference to me during the very difficult time of my parent's divorce. God used everything He had at His disposal to bring me to the place I ended up which became just the first step on my spiritual journey.
All of that is to say that God is in charge and that our children’s journey is in His hands. I can easily see how a child who has grown up and thrived in a faithful Catholic family who has studied his faith and has made it a part of his everyday life would do well at a secular college with a strong Catholic community for him to belong to. A Catholic college (even one with pockets of liberal theology) might be just the place for a cradle catholic child like I was who had never had the real Truth of her faith presented to her.
I can’t agree with Mary G. more. God will place your child where He wants him if you allow Him. I know some parents who forced their children to choose from only a handful (or even one) acceptable colleges and that line of reasoning backfired in a serious way. Even though I wasn’t aware of UD’s Catholic identity when I applied, I had no doubt in my mind that it was the place I needed to be. I credit the Holy Spirit with guiding my heart for reasons I couldn’t know at the time. (Most likely the prayers of my grandparents!) In fact, I remember the first time my parents saw the campus. Wet, dirty with decomposing fall leaves and empty. Desolate. They couldn’t understand what I saw in it, I couldn’t either then. But I did.
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Charlotte (Matilda)
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LisaR
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Elizabeth wrote:
LisaR wrote:
I could say you get what you pay for with a secular education- maybe a good prof here or there, maybe some really damaging ones.
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Wow! We got a bargain then. . |
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I would stand by this statement. I'm the first to say a big shout out to public institutions AND the great opportunities they provide with FOCUS, Newman Centers, Opus Dei and all Catholic dorms, etc.
Our Diocese just constructed the world's biggest Newman Center Dorm at the univ of IL in Urbana- and it is a college within the University! I think they have Mass at least 5x per day, their own cafeteria, and even Catholic Degrees.
that being said, it is still much more of a toss-up as far as what type of education/lifestyle one gets from the secular campus at large.
that was all I was saying.
To have Catholic profs at authentically Catholic schools (or trying to get there!) who have signed an Oath/mandatum is really amazing, and so unique and something to be supported/celebrated, too!!!
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Lisa
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many little saints in heaven!
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LisaR
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Mary G wrote:
Here's a story about a cool study done by the Newman Society that shows that good Catholic colleges aren't all that much more expensive than other private colleges ... and they tend to have deeper pockets for financial aid/scholarships.
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I looked back to the original post of this thread- and I took it as kind of a cheerleading moment for Catholic universities/colleges.
It's exciting to see how many listmembers here have connections to the many Catholic schools, and I'm hoping to refer back to this thread with ds in the next year or so!!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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Elizabeth
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LisaR wrote:
that being said, it is still much more of a toss-up as far as what type of education/lifestyle one gets from the secular campus at large. |
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That's true. If a child isn't equipped to be a young adult and to take on the responsibilities of being a man of faith in a secular environment, he should not go to a secular college. I mean that. If they aren't ready to take on the world and its warts, protect them from it until they are.(And if they aren't ready, I would seriously reconsider if they were ready for ANY college.)
But, for a young man who has discerned that his professional aspirations would be better served at a university that offers what Catholic colleges don't (in our case, professors from and work opportunities in all the major news/journalism operations in Washington DC) and who is certain that his faith will be fed and grow within the FOCUS community, a secular school can be a good fit. Certainly, we've seen more positives than just a "good prof here and there."
You painted with such a broad brush with "you get what you pay for," as if the product was cheap and inferior. Sometimes the product is quite high quality.Campus ministry isn't even paid for in the tuition of secular schools. We get way MORE than what we pay for.
Lifestyle is a choice. When a kid goes to college, he can choose how to live and no matter what college he attends, he exercises that choice. We all know instances of students who made good lifestyle choices and we all know instances of students who made poor ones--at both Catholic and secular schools. If it's a "toss up," the ball is in the hands of the child, both at the time he chooses a school and once he gets there. That choice has to be made with an eye towards maximizing the opportunity to grow into the man God intends (or woman).For some people, a secular school with lots of Catholic support is a good choice and not a cheap substitute for an authentic Catholic education. I'm just grateful that good campus ministries support good Catholic kids even on secular campuses.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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LisaR
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lastly, I promise! 
we found out recently that Ave Maria University in Naples is offering to pay 200.00 toward airfare for homeschoolers to come visit the school. they have about 30% homeschool grads at their school.
they have a special visitation day coming up April 3-5, but I think that the offer is for other times as well.
My sister got a full scholarship to attend Ave Maria Law School about 5 years ago, as did about 1/2 of her class, the rest got I think at least 50% scholarship.
The connections she made with Alan Keyes, Ginsburg, Scalia,Bork, the Thomas More Center for Law and Justice, etc. are priceless, not to mention her amazing classmates!
She is a mom of 2 little boys now, and is working parttime as a Deputy Disctrict attny in Denver, as a child advocate.
The Law school is still offering wonderful scholarships- we have nominal Catholic friends here whose ds is very bright. he applied and was accepted to law school at Loyola, DePaul, Notre Dame, and a few others, but got far more money offered to attend Ave Maria.
He wsa blown away when he went to visit, and is totally "sold" on the mission of the entire school, his parents are kind of scratching their heads and along for the ride!!
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
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LisaR
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Elizabeth wrote:
[QUOTE=LisaR]
You painted with such a broad brush with "you get what you pay for," as if the product was cheap and inferior.
it is a public institution, and that is what you pay for. by that very nature, it is not Catholic. usually one pays more for an authentic Catholic education, whether it be choosing to home educate in a Catholic was as opposed to the "free" charter/public homeschool option, choosing to pay tuition for Catholic High School as opposed to public high school, etc.
I assumed that this thread was a shout out and cheer for supporting Catholic Colleges, as per the original post.
Sometimes the product is quite high quality.
I am not disputing this one bit!! Dh worked with Curtis Martin extensively. We were and are beind FOCUS from the beginning, and work weekly with Newman Center students at 3 Universities in our Diocese!! Dh also prepares for marriage many Newman Center couples!!
again, I just meant that the ENTIRE school package at a public instituition is vastly different, and really cannot be compared.
Campus ministry isn't even paid for in the tuition of secular schools. We get way MORE than what we pay for.
yes, so PLEASE tithe!!! although in many schools there is some money which is alloted for these ministries...
a whole 'nother post
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
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Angel
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Mackfam wrote:
| I'm not sure about adding the dorm space on campus. I do know the Dominican sister's order in Nashville is growing so fast and so exponentially (thanks be to God!) that they've been adding to the sister's facilities - a new chapel and motherhouse and a wing for the sisters is all in the works. |
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Well, this has nothing to do with Catholic colleges (I have a question about WCC in a minute), but I just wanted to say yay!! The Dominican Sisters of Nashville taught me in elementary school. Our 6th grade trip was to St. Cecilia's, which is gorgeous...
BUT the actually applicable question I have about Wyoming Catholic is about all the outdoor stuff... do you have to know horseback riding before you get there? My kids are too young for serious interest, but when my dh and I were discussing various colleges the other day WCC did seem to raise quite a bit of interest around here. (OF course, it's my 10 yo dd who told us that she was absolutely going there, but we'll see if she keeps all these outdoorsy interests into her teen years!)
Anyway, it looked interesting. My 12 yo ds surprised me by saying that he wanted to go to a Catholic college... I didn't actually expect it from him. The problem as I see it as he gets older is that so few of the colleges in the Newman guide are strong science schools and he's quite interested in the sciences. It seems like some of the Great Books schools give science short shrift as well, and I don't understand that either. Shouldn't Catholic universities be trying to produce more scientists?
Bit off topic there, too. Probably time for me to make dinner.
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SusanMc
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While we have quite a while before we start making these decisions for our own children, I wanted to pipe in with our point of view. My husband I have both worked in academia (he as a professor and I as an administrative professional) at multiple institutions, including Catholic institutions.
We agree with Elizabeth's viewpoint that limiting one's search criteria to Catholic-only institutions may not be the best idea. A kid with a strong Catholic faith at a secular institution is going to make a beeline for the Newman Center, Opus Dei, etc. If they aren't prepared to be in the "real world" then perhaps they aren't ready to leave home and go to college period.
One of the more respected Catholic colleges that has been mentioned on this board has spent the last decade or so pushing out some of what I would consider its more faithful faculty (both from a Catholic perspective and a educational standards perspective). Still some great professors at that institution but perhaps not the bastion of faith and learning that it once was.
There are some fantastic Catholic colleges out there and each student has different needs. Whether or not you do choose a Catholic college you still need to look hard at academic quality. With the internet it is easier than ever to evaluate the seriousness of the faculty by checking their CVs to see if they still do research. Read back issues of their alumni magazines to see if alumni and professors continue to publish in their area of expertise. Look at syllibi and reading lists for courses. Finally, sit in on an upper level class (not an intro) to get a feel for the progress of the majors.
I hope this is helpful!
edited to remove the names of certain former professors at the unnamed institution I refer to. Upon reflection, I think this borders too close to gossip for my comfort.
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CKwasniewski
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Angela,
Quick reply to your q.s about WCC's outdoor programs. No, a student doesn't have to know how to do these things like horse riding or rock climbing ahead of time--that's why there's a class on it! The idea behind it is threefold 1) balanced development of mind and body 2)leadership skills, building self confidence 3) reading the "book of Nature" ie., kids need to "unplug" and get in touch with God's reality!
On the q. of sciences: many small Catholic colleges are trying to give a liberal arts education (liberating arts, someone said  ), a broad formation in theology, philosophy, literature, logic, etc. of the western tradition which would come BEFORE specialization in a specific field.
hth
ck
eta: Just want to say that I know this idea does not appeal to everyone. Some kids have very specific ideas and are ready to specialize. But there have been successful doctors, for example, who started with a liberal arts degree first.
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Catholic Colleges
