| Author | |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2008 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Michael was "unschooled" through high school. I hesitate to write that because unschoolers tend to jump on me and quibble about definition. Essentially, he sat down with typical college requirements and followed his own inclinations about how to fill them.
He was a voracious reader and a very willing writer.
It worked out beautifully. Now, he's halfway through college, on track to graduate a year early if he chooses to do so, with a straight A average. So, I know it can work and I really believe it's the best way to educate teenagers at home.
But can it work with a young man who dislikes reading and writing? My 14yo doesn't want anything to do with paper or print. Is it possible to get a high school education without it? And, to answer the question before it's asked, no, he doesn't want to go to college. He wants to play professional soccer. What he refuses to consider is that if he's not drafted right out of high school, his soccer "career" is over without college. And the NCAA has very strict requirements for proof of high school education for homeschoolers. Michael's extensive reading list saved us.
What does unschooling look like if you're not a reader and you're keeping the door to college open (in hopes that maturity will kick in)? Truly, I don't want him to regret slamming a door shut. In his case, if he's not ready for college when his high school playing days are over, he might never play again. I know that would crush him. I'd love to be able to keep him from learning that lesson the hard way.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2008 at 2:33pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
NCAA Eligibility Requirements
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2008 at 2:38pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
well, just because he's 18 or such doesn't mean at that point he couldn't choose to do the things to get himself into college a year or two later.. so just because he might have to put off college a year or two, or go to a community college.. that door to college is awfully hard to get to permanantly close. And if you look into the regs he most likely would still be able to play just as long.
Can you work on getting around reading with dvd's and audio books? and such? (on an mp3 so he can go running or practise alone or such to work on his goal at the same time) then he'd only need to focus on his writing to get into college.. rather than trying to catch up with all the reading plus learning to write.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2008 at 2:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
JodieLyn wrote:
| well, just because he's 18 or such doesn't mean at that point he couldn't choose to do the things to get himself into college a year or two later.. so just because he might have to put off college a year or two, or go to a community college.. that door to college is awfully hard to get to permanantly close. And if you look into the regs he most likely would still be able to play just as long. |
|
|
He absolutely cannot take two years off and play Division 1 soccer.He won't be available to be recruited because there will be no venue to keep his game competitive. The competitive players at that age level will be in college or playing for the U-20 national team or playing professionally. So, he could go to college but he would have missed his window for recruitment to play soccer in college. Further, right now, he won't go to college for college's sake--too much reading and writing. personally, I don't care if he plays soccer in college. But I know he will regret closing this door.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JodieLyn
Forum Moderator
Joined: Sept 06 2006
Location: Oregon
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 12234
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2008 at 3:00pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
oh I see, our lacrosse team is a club so that there is still a venue to keep competitive and be seen. I believe we just recently had a young man just out of high school play for us and be able to use that to get to college.. the opposite I suppose from what you're talking about.
__________________
Jodie, wife to Dave
G-18, B-17, G-15, G-14, B-13, B-11, G-9, B-7, B-5, B-4
All men who have turned out worth anything have had the chief hand in their own education.
-Sir Walter Scott
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2008 at 3:16pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
After high school, club soccer changes dramatically. In high school, it's age regulated. So, once he's over 18, there's no good place for him to play. He could play semi-pro and not get paid and so remain eligible, but that's not really where the coaches are for recruiting and it doesn't tend to be a good year 'round thing. I'd like for him to be able to keep the door open for college, even though he's completely unmotivated academically right now.
How does unschooling work with a teenager who wants no part of books? In a "traditional" homeschooling situation, i could tie assignments to the right to play. If he didn't check things off, he couldn't play. But I really don't want to do that...
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Bookswithtea
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 07 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2621
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2008 at 3:23pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I have a child determined not to attend 4 yr college. We have really pushed alternatives and while I do feel like I am literally *dragging* him through high school at times, it seems to sort of be working. 
What are his chances of being drafted immediately after high school? Does he have a back up plan that is doable and does that plan have goals he could be working toward?
Carole Joy Seid does seminars nationally on homeschooling through high school and her high school suggestions are much more unschooly than most. She focuses a lot on reading but not on necessarily responding to all that reading. Perhaps audiobook and watching plays on dvd could substitute for some of it? You can pm me if you want more info. about her. I have her seminar tapes and outlines. She does phone consultations. I did it once and found it to be very helpful.
Also, its very expensive, but Clonlara is an established program that seems to specialize in credentials for kids with nontraditional transcripts.
NARS is less expensive but they seem to be open to alternative methods. We built a fine arts credit out of a mish mash of all sorts of things that did not include a stick of bookwork and I got the ok from my advisor on that.
What about outside classes for a subject or two? Lots of times boys will come around and at least do the minimum work if they are in a coop type setting with friends.
And I guess I wouldn't push any subject that is not absolutely necessary on paper. I came to that this year, grudgingly. 
These kids are smart and driven, but they don't fit in the current societal box that says, "College is important." For them, college is like water torture. Parenting them through their high school education is exhausting. You have my empathy.
__________________
Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Willa
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: California
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3881
|
| Posted: Dec 12 2008 at 7:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
| But can it work with a young man who dislikes reading and writing? My 14yo doesn't want anything to do with paper or print. Is it possible to get a high school education without it? And, to answer the question before it's asked, no, he doesn't want to go to college. He wants to play professional soccer. What he refuses to consider is that if he's not drafted right out of high school, his soccer "career" is over without college. And the NCAA has very strict requirements for proof of high school education for homeschoolers. Michael's extensive reading list saved us.. |
|
|
Is his refusal to consider alternatives temporary, do you think? as in, he is burned out for whatever reason and needs some deschooling time?
What does he say about it? (not asking you to tell about his thought processes on here, just wondering what he envisions in his future).
Could he talk to his coach or some type of mentor and get some ideas/influence/feedback that way? I know when my 15 year old went to football camp they were pretty heavy on the emphasis towards college prep since it is pretty difficult to have a future in football without college.
A few ideas, which I'm sure you have thought of already:
Take some community college courses?
Teaching Company DVDs and books on tape?
Private tutoring for the "basics"?
COmmunity internships with an educational component?
Fourteen years old seems young in some ways-- in that he could probably take a few months "off" academics, just deschool, and yet catch up easily in the long run. How much does the NCAA micromanage? (I mean, most of my kids didn't do all that much in 9th grade but by the time they were juniors or seniors they had racked up more than enough solid credit hours. In their transcripts we just smoothed it out over the four years so to speak.)
Yet in other ways fourteen years old seems fairly grown-up -- old enough to figure out to some extent how to do what it takes to get where he wants to go. You could ask him for his plan and give him counsel (your own or someone else's) on how realistic it is.
Just a few thoughts to throw into the brainstorming mix!
__________________
AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Erin
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5814
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2008 at 1:38pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
| In a "traditional" homeschooling situation, i could tie assignments to the right to play. If he didn't check things off, he couldn't play. But I really don't want to do that... |
|
|
Elizabeth
I so understand what you are saying. I'm going to assume that you are where I am with my ds13, you want him to have that spark, that desire himself. To be engrossed and absorbed, if only you can find the key...
JodieLyn wrote:
Can you work on getting around reading with dvd's and audio books? and such? (on an mp3 so he can go running or practise alone or such to work on his goal at the same time) then he'd only need to focus on his writing to get into college.. rather than trying to catch up with all the reading plus learning to write. |
|
|
I actually have a similar situation as Elizabeth's. Dd reads voraciously, ds reads a limited genre. After taking the Mercy Academy Learning Style Test, I realise that ds is very audial. Does anyone know of resources, sites that you can download to the mp3? Not talking books so much but the more traditional subjects?
Elizabeth,
Dh keeps assuring me that alot of this (total lack of interest, lethargic, everything school related is too much effort)is hormonal, typical for a 13yr old, is 14 that different for boys? Mind you ds hasn't often been enthused . I remember you doing the learning style test with your dc, did that help with direction? I told dh yesterday that I feel like a failure because I haven't found the key, he totally doesn't understand why I beat myself up. Hugs to you.
__________________
Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2008 at 2:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Erin wrote:
Elizabeth,
Dh keeps assuring me that alot of this (total lack of interest, lethargic, everything school related is too much effort)is hormonal, typical for a 13yr old, is 14 that different for boys? Mind you ds hasn't often been enthused . |
|
|
I absolutely think it has a whole lot to do with age. Michael went through this and so did Christian to some degree.But Michael was at least reading the whole time. I hesitate to write much more because it's not fair to Patrick to have it all out here but I just want to find a way to help not entirely waste this time and regret it on a big scale later.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MarilynW
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 28 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4275
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2008 at 3:10pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth - I have no experience of this and no kids reached this age yet - but I agree with you completely on not closing the door. And he is such a very clever boy - he could really do anything he wants. Not sure if any of my suggestions will be useful:
- studying in a group or coop with other boys/girls his age - I know both our views on coops - but just wondering if the whole competitive thing (this is Patrick!!) might help - of course the problem will be finding the other boys/girls for the coop
- can you sit down with him with the requirements framework and let him choose his plan
- what about the "vocational route" - doesn't he want to be a professional chef? - would he still be able to play soccer this way?
Just some ideas..and prayers coming your way...
__________________
Marilyn
Blessed with 6 gifts from God
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MarilynW
Forum All-Star
Joined: June 28 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4275
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2008 at 3:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
On a side note - all my boys are completely convinced that Patrick is going to be famous and play for a Premier Division soccer team in the UK - and that he will be the youngest player ever to play with the highes $ contract  - not that this helps with the schooling dilemma right now...
__________________
Marilyn
Blessed with 6 gifts from God
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Natalia
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Louisiana
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1343
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2008 at 3:28pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth,
I don't have a graduate yet so I am not an expert. But I can see the difference in my dd's (high schooler)and my ds (middle school)learning styles. Unschooling would never work with my dd. I don't think "unschooling", even using the term loosely, is not for everybody. That is my opinion. I think to "unschool" you have to have the perfect combination of learning styles and personalities both teacher's and student's.
Then, my question is: Does he need to be unschooled? How does he feel about just getting it done in a more traditional way? The environment in your house seems to be so rich that I am sure he gets a lot of the extras just by being there when books and ideas are discussed.
Also, is he refusal to go to college a product of his love for soccer and his idea that he has the rest of his life figured out or is is a rejection (base on fear) of something he doesn't think he can handle- academically speaking?
In our house we have the opposite- a son that is highly intellectual in his approach to life but who rejects most physical activities. We frequently discuss the importance of being a well rounded individual, how is better to develop evenly and not lopsided , how it enriches our life to be knowledgeable about many things, how we can better grow in virtue and maturity when we work at those things that don't come naturally to us.
I guess to answer your question, I don't think unschooling would work the same way that it did for your older son. But it doesn't mean that homeschooling won't work. I think you are right about keeping his options opened. 14 is too young to make a decision of this nature. So I guess the question is how to homeschoolin such a way that it gets him to college, if he chooses to go.
Maybe his desire to play soccer would work as a motivator to comply with a more traditional way of doing school?
Blessing,
__________________
Natalia
http://pannuestrodecadadia.blogspot.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Betsy
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 02 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962
|
| Posted: Dec 13 2008 at 4:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
When I was about that age I got my first "summer" job picking strawberries. I only picked during the season (which wasn't very long). However, that experience had an impact on my determiation to go to college...so I wouldn't have to do that for a living.
So, getting a "job" might be helpful????
Betsy
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Angie Mc
Board Moderator
Joined: Jan 31 2005
Location: Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 11400
|
| Posted: Dec 16 2008 at 1:48pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Betsy wrote:
When I was about that age I got my first "summer" job picking strawberries. I only picked during the season (which wasn't very long). However, that experience had an impact on my determiation to go to college...so I wouldn't have to do that for a living.
So, getting a "job" might be helpful????
Betsy |
|
|
I picked rags in a factory. Really . Ask my sister  . That will get your mind on college ASAP .
The challenge is...these athletes put in so much time just to master their sport, it is part-time or full-time job, really.
Elizabeth, I'm with you. Devin and Michael have followed a similar path. Aiden and Patrick are following a similar path. What I'm hoping to do with Aiden right now, and he doesn't mind me sharing this, is...
I've read to him from Cal Ripken the stats and recommendations of this athlete who is an idol to my ds. The stats aren't pretty. This isn't to discourage, but to encourage truth. If God wants my son playing pro ball, then he will. If not, what is your back up plan? Dave and I expect a back-up plan  .
On a practical note, we're fortunate here to have a community college that assesses students after their sophomore year of high school and places them into free classes to get them ready for college. Devin did this and it has been a huge success. I asked her if she thinks that Aiden would do as well, she said, "Absolutely!" So...he may not test into the higher classes, but he will be "in college" and getting a taste of it so he can make an informed decision about college.
Thanks for the great helps here, ladies. Keep them coming, please.
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
About Me
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Shari in NY
Forum Pro
Joined: Nov 23 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 358
|
| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 8:08am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I agree about getting a job. Working at golf course maintenance for minimum wage was a great motivater for my son to succeed in college! But in high school, working to get into college was a non-negotiable. I didn't really care if he went to college or not but being able to was the point of high school like it or not I assigned reading and required very little writing (he actually refused to do the writing and I let that battle go. You really can't force a boy to write. He gets good grades in writing in college and I attribute it to all the reading...) I wouldn't worry too much yet though. 14 to 15 is not the most cooperative age for boys!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
StephanieA
Forum Pro
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 394
|
| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 8:19am | IP Logged
|
|
|
My oldest son was unschooled junior and seniors years. The second son was unschooled sophomore, junior, and senior years.
The third is struggling being schooled or unschooled . He's 16 and we have had to come up with very low standards (comparatively), and have tied rules to getting his driver's license. I know what this kid is capable of, but he is ADHD and too talkative and way laid back (and he loves playing with his one year old brother  . I know no other way but this way or throwing the towel in...and then suffer lots of regrets. We have hired tutors (2 of them, but he didn't work for them either), enrolled him in Kolbe (whole set of problems there). The two older sons are encouraging us to let him enroll for a math class in college. They think it will pull him into reality. I have my hesitation because he is extremely impressionable. I didn't have this exact problem with sons #1 and #2.
I say my boys were unschooled, because they simply didn't "take" schooling from me anymore at some point. It was what THEY choose to do. I did a lot of planning, and buying books, etc., but they eventually choose what they wanted to do.
My 14 year old is a girl and is a bit more pliable and a lot more motivated (most days). Gosh, what a breath of fresh air!
That said, I sometimes approach the problem with "how would explain my actions/choices to God on judgement day. Well, that's pretty sobering, but when you come to a point where no answer seems great, this thought gives me some vision....even though it is blurry.
A better solution for this child would be an all-boy's solidly-Catholic day school....one where the boys were steeped in the faith, competitive, but not neurotically so. After reading Pat Buchanan's book, a solidly Jesuit boy's school really is the answer for some boys. Too bad none exist anymore and certainly not in my area. I am not sending him off. He would miss the family too much.
Blessings,
Stephanie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Leonie
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2831
|
| Posted: Dec 17 2008 at 6:03pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
What does unschooling look like if you're not a reader and you're keeping the door to college open (in hopes that maturity will kick in)? Truly, I don't want him to regret slamming a door shut. In his case, if he's not ready for college when his high school playing days are over, he might never play again. I know that would crush him. I'd love to be able to keep him from learning that lesson the hard way. |
|
|
Our unschooling is built on discussion. For example, one son is good at maths but never wants to do any formal maths. We've had a time of doing no maths but this year, at age, fifteen, we had a discussion. About life goals. About how maths will help him with university entrance and thus the career in which he is interested.
So, he doe maths about three times a week. Still complains but does it beaue he knows it will help hom get where he wants to go.
Would a discussion about college help yopur fourteen year old? So, you and he can come to an agreement about a few have-tos academically?
And can you have a complete unschool time for ahwile, in case this aversion is temporary? Then do the discussion thing above, as Thomas and I have done.
__________________
Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: Dec 18 2008 at 7:10am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Here's a little more detail:
He's had an extended no school at all time for almost a year. So it's not that he's burned out on school.
He's sees absolutely no point in college at all, even to play soccer there.
He's exhausting me. I feel like I'm "dragging" him through anything unrelated to soccer.
It might be that this is all temporary and very much related to his age. And it might be that I just need to ignore it for awhile until he figures out that he really needs a Plan B in case professional soccer doesn't work out and that professional soccer players would do well to be at least a little educated (so much for my grandiose dreams of being well read). It sounds like some of you have faced/are facing the same kind of things in your homes.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
StephanieA
Forum Pro
Joined: May 11 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 394
|
| Posted: Dec 18 2008 at 8:09am | IP Logged
|
|
|
My 16 year is doing the same, a 1/2 year off and on of unschooling for the past 3 years. He is not burned and he isn't being challenged. Also he is immature; he can't project himself 3-5 years down the road, so these talks are nearly useless.
My problem with this is.....when WILL he take it seriously? One of my brothers (who homeschooled) did the same thing and it cost him an engineering degree. He simply couldn't make up 1-2 years of math and chemistry once he got to college.
Yes, he could have kept plugging through IF he had a serious calling to engineering...BUT there is something called male ego and self-esteem
My youngest brother (18 years) also is struggling. The problem is that he has told my sister that he feels useless, not challenged. My parents just do not want to put any pressure on him when it comes to schooling.
His situation, to many of his siblings, is clear, but then again, we aren't the parents
This also dovetails into a large family situation. I just don't have TIME to check up on my 16 year old so very much. This is why we enrolled with Kolbe - for accountability. Ummmm....I wasted my money.
There are kids that are so very smart (and eventually motivated) that they can overcome these years. But there are also kids that are above average, but not stellar, who have to have that incremental formation to reach certain goals.
I think we have to figure out which fits our kid's talents and what possibly God is calling them to do and parent from there. Really some 14 and 16 year old boys haven't got a clue. We parents are suppose to have the wisdom and foresight. But really sometimes it is just darn hard to feel right about enforcing it without causing so much havoc in the family.
Blessings,
Stephanie
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: Unschooling High School
