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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 8:19am | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
I was just wondering if he is the only young 15 yr old who doesn't know how to do this?
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Definitely not.
My 15 yr old would be classified a "slow" reader if in school. He's gotten where he enjoys reading and he reads a lot but neither of my boys are writers. My girls are.
I agree. Academic writing is stressful and hard work. But it's a great challenge as well, isn't it?
Everyone has given great advice and I cannot begin to tell you how great it is that you're focused on him understanding this now.
I have two children in college right now. I cannot begin to over emphasis to need for teaching your children the academic "formula" of writing..
Though they do the bulk of their essay writing, I find myself still "hsing" the writing process. Even my dd who won an essay scholarship asks for my suggestions, critic, and advice. My ds was never so patient about sitting with me while I edited his writing during his high school years. Now he patiently sits at my elbow and as we edit together. I tell him not to feel his writing isn't any good. I've had writing brutely edited as well.
I think they both have a new found respect for the art of writing. They see that it is indeed "work" for those gifted in other areas.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 4:31pm | IP Logged
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Thanks, Cay (and everyone). Ds is actually not a slow reader and he writes a great narration or summary. I have focused all these years on style, writer's voice, etc. Now he is doing English that isn't interested in style as much as formula. He is sooooooooooo discouraged because, to him it feels like learning to write all over again.  My heart is hurting for him. That said, it was HE who insisted on doing a traditional plan this year. He "hated" my way of doing school.  So, this is the bed he's laying in now. And its frustrating me to no end because I want to fix things but I can't. Its not just the 5 paragraph essay format, its also that he has asserted a desire to be independent from my subjective grading, school wise and I am trying to honor it, but at the same time, he isn't familiar enough with this format to be as independent as he wants to be. So its just a big muddle. 
One day at a time is my mantra...
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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SallyT
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| Posted: Oct 23 2008 at 8:51pm | IP Logged
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It is tough to hit this stage (I mean that in all kinds of ways, though I'm thinking specifically about the "learning to write all over again" business). Yes, it is like learning to write all over again. It is learning a completely different way of writing. It's a little like having learned to walk, and then having to learn to dance. OK, so you know how to stand upright and move your legs, but that doesn't mean that ballet is going to come easily or feel natural. (not a great analogy for a boy, maybe, but it's what I can think of right now).
I'm trying to think of useful things you could say to him that would either encourage or (gently) kick him through this current wall of discouragement. What he's experiencing is such a universal life . . . feeling. It's like the transition stage in labor. Not comfortable, but kind of necessary -- you wouldn't want to stay in early labor for the rest of your life (again, maybe not such the great boy analogy . . . hopefully you can translate!).
Honestly, I think this stuff is almost harder for a good natural writer to learn than for someone who doesn't just intuit his way through writing, but has to struggle to write anything. It's just so easy and comfortable to intuit your way through . . . but intuition isn't the same thing as reasoning and constructing an argument. Hard lesson -- and I'm speaking as someone who was that kind of student and went on to publish poetry and to work as a freelance journalist. In both endeavors, I had to learn the virtue of contrivance, and of making something of contrivance. I HATED that kind of thing at 15, but I owe my life's work to it . . .
So I'm being kind of pedantic, I realize, but I really just want to say hang in there, and I'll be praying for you and that independent learner.
Sally
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Natalia
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| Posted: Oct 24 2008 at 7:53am | IP Logged
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Books,
Maybe it is a little like learning to read.You know, they can sound out the words, but they can't tell what the word is. And then, all of the sudden, something clicks and they take off. Maybe something will click and at the end of the year, he will be turning in really good essays.
My dd is taking an IEW class at co-op, and I have found that she responds so much better to someone else' criticism. It has been a lot better than when I was trying to read over her papers. I like what Margot had to say about depth vs form. Right now we are concentrating in the form, and I am left to wonder when would she be able to dig a little deeper. I remember Julie B's advice of soaking up a whole bunch of information on the topic before writing so that you have something to say. I know that for my dd, is not a matter of knowing how, but a matter of having something to say. I don't know if their "teen brain" fluctuates. Sometimes I see a glimpse of "deep thought" or observation, and then is gone, and I am left with this "big kid" again.
No that anything I have said helps, but I wanted to tell you that you are not alone.
Natalia
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mariB
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| Posted: Oct 27 2008 at 5:00am | IP Logged
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Dear Books,
I was reading through these posts on this thread this morning and realized that my previous post was rather "skeletal". It's so hard sometimes to convey on the forum what you really want to say with so few words. So I feel I should tell you that although I wrote out a "formula" that the 5 paragraph essay in our house has not always been an "easy" task in our household (although I love teaching it). My 17 year old really gets it...but he's 17.
My just 15 year old( He's in 9th grade and we waited to start kindergarten until he turned 6) has been walked through TWO 5 paragraph essays so far. I sat down with him and we went through samples and then I helped him with a thesis. So, we basically walked through two of them together...although he did the writing on his own.
I'm sorry to have given the feeling that he's got it! He doesn't have it and is in the process of learning how to analyze, come up with a thesis, and then move on to the essay.
Now...my thoughts for our boys. I really think analysis is developmental.
And I personally love the 5 paragraph essay. The reason why? Just my own personal experience and that is it! Period. I spent the last two years of high school in every literature class I could find writing 5 paragraph essays. Reason? I LOVED the teacher...he was an edifier.
Before 11th grade I never wrote anything outside of a few research reports.
Here's my solution when I don't think my children are getting a certain skill ...
I sit down and write the pros and cons of what they do scholastic wise. And you know what? I always come up with many more pros than cons.
I think the most difficult thing about homeschooling is the wondering if you as a teacher/mom are doing enough. Are we giving our children the best education that we could give them? I know it's always in the back of my mind. That's when it's time to make a pros and cons list for homeschooling. Surely, there will be many more pros than cons!
Reflecting back on my own Catholic school education, there were many holes. (My education was weak in sciences, writing, art...although there was LOTS of copying from the blackboard which I think was invaluable...we had copywork :) But there were many strengths too!
I guess that is what I am trying to convey. Our children have many strengths in their education and that is what we have to focus on even while we are trying to figure out how to help our children "get it".
I can tell you right now that I have a third son who won't be doing the 5 paragraph essay for awhile. I just don't see it even though our other two boys were writing much more at his age. But, I am looking at his strengths. He is very artistic, constantly singing, very ambitious(get up at 5:30 to start the day..even on weekends), loves to draw, and loves to read. AND...he loves lists. He is constantly going from the moment he gets up to the moment his head hits the pillow. I have to write out a list for the school week or he falls apart.
What is difficult for him? Writing..can't spell worth a darn. He is writing on his own personal blog just for fun. That is his writing right now. And tests? We don't do them. It stresses him out. And if we do them, they are open book for now. Am I creating holes in his education? Very possibly. But to me seeing him be joyful when he home schools is more important for me at this time (He is almost 13).
Praying for all homeschooling mothers..especially those with children in high school.
And Dear Books, I hope I have been a little more helpful this time around and it is true...you are NOT alone!
Blessings,
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Oct 27 2008 at 7:58am | IP Logged
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You all are so encouraging. Thank you. 
We got through the assignment. Natalia, we sent the essay to someone else for review, and I do think that helped. I wasn't the meanie...I was able to be on his side helping him to give them what they want. We'll see what grade they give him. I'm not in charge of this one (part of that independence from me as a teacher thing...his choice, over my protestations!). I do feel like I helped him more than either he or I would have liked, but I don't think he could have seen what it was supposed to look like without it. Next one, he'll have to do more of it on his own.
Mari, he does have wonderful strengths. Thank you for reminding me to notice them.  Its just going to be a hard haul for us this year, getting through all of this, but in the end, I think he will be a stronger person for it, even if he continues to hate academics. It just makes me so mad because its not lack of ability...he would just rather be in the woods roughing it, or jumping out of a plane or something like that. He doesn't understand why anyone would want to sit at a desk for any reason! 
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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| Posted: Oct 30 2008 at 7:45pm | IP Logged
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Well, I guess someone thought the final draft was ok, because we got ds's grade back today, and he got a B+ !!
Doin the happy dance tonight...
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Angie Mc
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Congratulations to you both!
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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mariB
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Wonderful!  ...hey, a son who would rather rough it in the woods or jump out of an airplane? Wow! I love those qualities! Those ones you just can't learn! Boldness..tenacity...I love it!
Blessings to you!
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marib-Mother to 22ds,21ds,18ds,15dd,11dd and wife to an amazing man for 23 years
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: When do they really *get*...
