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St. Ann
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guitarnan wrote:
No, everyone goes to Grundschule (elementary) and then the students are tracked toward college prep, vocational school, etc. The main decision is made after 4th grade - that's when students find out if they are eligible to go to a Gymnasium (college prep) - there is a limited amount of choice there, such as English-language immersion Gymnasium vs. one that emphasizes math & science.
Parents can't cooperate to form schools. School teachers are state employees. Parents can join parent councils - my friend is the teacher rep for her school's parent council - and make their views known via the council, but they can't break away from the system.
You have to understand, though, that citizens of other nations don't always think in terms of individual rights the way we do in the U.S. Their definitions of rights and freedom is different. In Germany, the government has more control, partly because the Germans want it that way. No one wants another Hitler. They're willing to give up some freedoms to achieve this goal. |
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Nancy, there are private schools also, where the teachers are not state employees. In this case the parents must pay big tuition fees to send their children there, as the state contributes very little. These schools have much more freedom, but do have to follow the state curriculum to a certain degree. I know of one Schoenstatt school near Koblenz and several private Catholic schools in Bavaria. These schools were founded through private initiatives. It is still very difficult to find faithful catholic teachers which can be very frustrating for the school administrators, but even more frustrating is the difficulty finding truly catholic families who support these schools. Many of these families are wealthy and wanting a good private school and could care less about the Catholicness. My dh was principal of such a school for 10 years.
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guitarnan
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Stephanie, that is good to know...but still too difficult for most parents to use. It sounds like there are too few alternatives and they are too costly. (Like where I live now!  )
On the military side - base commanders are out of the loop - some were making very arbitrary decisions about homeschooling based on personal opinion, so DODEA (the DOD education folks) are now in charge. You notify DoDDS you are homeschooling and that's it. No state requirements, either. I don't know about Germany, but we lived off base in Italy and I was able to homeschool without problems. I think as long as you're active duty you don't fall under German law.
What I don't know about - and need to learn about - is contractors who are working in Germany for U.S. military bases. My dh would like to do this some day, but not all contractors are located near DoDDS schools, and my daughter speaks very little German. I know we could pay for her to go to a DoDDS school (in English) but have no idea about homeschooling under those conditions.
Thanks so much for sharing this info!
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robynallen
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JSchaaf wrote:
Are American families living on US military bases still able to homeschool? It used to be at the "base commander's discretion". How about American military families living off-base?
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We were stationed in Germany with the military a little over a year ago. We are now in NM. Anyway, as of the time we left American military families were allowed to homeschool on and off base. My kids weren't school age at the time but I knew many families from my parish that homeschooled.
Robyn
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Kathryn UK
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italianalaskan wrote:
Kthryn,
maybe in England it is legal to homeschool, but I know for a fact that it is illegal in Germany. I have a friend who lives there and told me that only if you are non citizen you can homeschool.
I can assure you the Italian government interfere with the school system as much as they do in the States and I do consider Europe more as a country now that they have no more "borders" and same currency (England of course has no part in that- very smart).
I didn't want to make this post political, really.
I just thought that it is scary what is going on in Europe and in this country with more and more people criticizing Christians for having strong principals and wanting them to pass them on to our children.
Simona |
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Simona, Europe certainly is not like a single country. The variations in legal and governmental systems are huge. For example, in the UK our legal system (common law) operates completely differently to other European countries. We are no less free than people in the US ... or Canada ... or Australia, all of which have legal systems derived from ours. Both Italy and Germany have very different systems, very different histories (both were not united as a country until the later 1800s and both have a recent totalitarian past) and very different mindsets to the UK ... or Ireland ... or Denmark ... or Switzerland ... and so on. In the UK we have a long tradition of individual freedom, which we have fought hard to defend. If Britain had not been prepared to stand alone against Hitler's Germany in 1940 Europe very well might not be free today.
Homeschooling laws in Europe vary as widely as anything else. The UK has far and away the biggest number of homeschoolers and has quite favourable homeschooling laws. For example, if a child has never been in a state (public) school, we don't even have to register as homeschoolers. In many countries homeschooling is legal, though often very rare ... I know it is legal in France (though the regulations were recently tightened), Belgium, Austria, Italy, Spain and Ireland. So far as I know the German situation is unique. And awful  .
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Lisbet
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I don't know anything about the homeschooling situation, but I can comment on the nudity. My mother was born and raised in Germany and I have visited many times and was raised with a big German influence. (my grandparents lived with us off and on.) They are very liberal with nudity, soap commercials bare breasts, nude mixed swimming, etc... I remember I received two dolls for my 7th birthday, a boy and girl, complete with the proper parts.
Their view of sexuality is very strange also. Well, maybe it was just my family, but they were very very open, and my mother made sure we were exposed to alot, so we would be 'educated'. It did not have a positive impact on me at all, as you can imagine. But again, maybe this was just my odd family.
German muslims, when I was there 10 years ago, every one of my cousins young friends, in their late teens early 20's were muslim - it was considered very 'cool'.
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mausi
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I just joined a few days ago and haven't really had a chance to introduce myself and then I read a post like this. Wow! I guess I will do a quick introduction and then make a few comments. My name is Tina and my husband is German. We have three children (8,6 and 3) who were all born in Germany. We moved to Canada (I am Canadian, btw) in June of 2007.
When I moved to Germany in 1998 (I was 20) to work as an au pair, my eyes were opened. My family took me on a family vacation a few weeks after my arrival. We went to Italy and I was shocked at the amount of upper-body nudity. My guest family and everyone else it seemed, sunbathed topless. They changed their little boy right on the beach. So did everyone else. I was in shock. I brought along an extra modest bathingsuit (it was pretty high in the front) because I though it would be appropriate for playing on the beach and swimming with a two year old. I guess from their point of view it didn't matter if I had anything on.
Nudity is everywhere in Europe. Commercials in Germany included an extreme amount of nudity. When I was in Paris some guy came up and grabbed my backside while I was crossing the street. My mother-in-law was constantly bugging me to buy sexy things in order to make her son happy. All pretty weird and foreign for a hicktown country girl.
As far as the school system goes... My son went for fear of having him taken away. We also couldn't pay the fines they threaten with, we were just barely getting by. We do regret ever sending him. He came home very aggressive and he is usually mild tempered. Materialism is a big thing in Germany. We were "nobody's" and didn't care. My son didn't get this whole "you've got to have this or that to be in" thing. I could go on about the school system, but this isn't the place or time. They do have religion courses at the school he attended. They separated the Catholics and Protestants and they got a special teacher for religion. My son loved his religion teacher and class and he learned a lot in that class. But as for the rest... We spent half of last year undoing what the school system had done to our son. We weren't practising Catholics at the time. The Catholic Church in the area where we lived wasn't very Christian any time we ever went. People talked behind our backs about the nerve we had to bring our little kids to church. I didn't have the nerve or guts to stand up to these people. After all they were my elders. My husband and I were next to our children the youngest people in church and there was a huge age gap between us and the next older parishioners. My son went to a Catholic kindergarten (which is not part of the school) and one of the mother's asked me where I got the name Noah (my son's name). Duh!? I thought you should at least know that if your kid is going to a Catholic Kindergarten. Again, we were dealing with a lot of people who renounce the faith, but send their kids to receive the Sacraments (my husband was one of those kids). The mentality of career oriented, maybe one kid when I am settled by my late 30's is very dominate. People thought my husband and I were nuts to get married and start a family when we were in our early 20's. When I was pregnant with my third, people declared me as being careless and irresponsible. I even was asked, "Why, you have the perfect family? A boy, and a girl? Why would you want to ruin it?" The society pushes birth control on 14 years olds. They think it is normal for 14 years to take the pill, not because they are sexually active, but because of it's promises~no pimples, regularity etc.
You are probably wondering what this all has to do with the topic of anti-homeschooling Germany. It has to do with a culture that is Anti-Family. The birthrate is so low that they acutally started paying women to have babies. The government pays a lot of money for women with good jobs to have a baby. You get something like €1400/month for 12 months if you have a baby and were working before conception. The money is less if you had a lower paying job and if you weren't working at all it is peanuts. Most people have children as a status symbol before it is too late. Just one, maybe two, so they can give them all there is to offer.
Moving to Canada was the best thing we have ever done. We started going to Mass a few weeks after we moved here. There is also a Children's Holy Hour at our parish and a very good Catholic Home Schoolers community in our area. My son is doing much better in a home school environment and has an abundance of firends. We are learning our Cathecism together and I feel closer to God than ever. We are very involved in the Church community and feel closer to God then we ever did before.
I pray that Germany will change it's ways, but we can't just pray that home schooling will become legal, but rather for families. We struggled in Germany. We didn't want to conform, but also didn't find comfort in the Church. Please remember this country in your prayers, its leaders, its educators and especially the Church and families.
Btw, my inlaws and friends really don't understand home schooling. They cannot visualize it at all, not even friends with a few kids.
God Bless you all.
Tina
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CrunchyMom
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Just because something is cultural doesn't make it okay, though, right? When I was in Germany, I remember being horrified at the pornography that was so openly available in the stores and such. Then, I saw something hidden behind the counter as a Playboy or such would be here, and it turns out that it was *child* pornography--perfectly legal.
So, while the casualness towards nudity could be cultural and not a direct attack against Christians, per se, it is still an attack on virtue, and attempting to force those who are practicing Catholics and Christians to be comfortable with it is awful!
Plus, I would think that years and years of a growing casualness regarding modesty are what contributes to a government legalizing and society accepting something as evil as child pornography. It is happening here, just slower.
I'm also confused about how Germans are willing to give the government more control in these areas to *prevent* another Hitler when it was Hitler who instituted compulsory public school laws, preschool, etc... so as to *better* be able to indoctrinate the people from an early age.
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St. Ann
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Tina, I am curious where you lived in Germany? I have lived in different areas of Germany since 1989. I am back in the States now for 1 year.
Remember Pope Benedict was born and raised in Bavaria.
Today, there are many good movements within the Church in Germany.
Not that anyone gets the impression that Germany is THE dwelling place of Satan.
Tina, I feel your pain. We went through a terrible episode with our oldest.
The 3rd Reich did so much soul deep destruction to many people. Also to the germans themselves. It has its' effect on the following generations. So much healing still has to happen.
I think that the post war government was formed with much "attention" from the allies. US, France, UK wanted securities built in that no young nazi movement could evolve. One may not legally buy or sell a copy of "Mein Kampf" or use a Swastika flag in Germany. I think this is a main reason the Gov. has its' hand in everything. There is also the tinge of socialism.
I am not trying to defend the path Germany is taking right now. I just think we need to balance the picture a bit and remember that there are always exceptions.
Oh, yeah. I know several german catholic moms that would love to homeschool.
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guitarnan
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Linday, you're right - not all cultural things are morally right. There's no question about that.
Perhaps my German friends are more atypical than I thought, although all their friends whom I've met seem just like them. They're very frugal people, not materialistic at all, my friend is very active in her church, etc.
Your comment about Hitler is correct, too - I don't see the logic, either, but this is how it has been explained to me by my German friends. (I'd never presume to speak for the German people - I can't even speak for many of my countrymen, LOL!)
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CrunchyMom
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I also find so much of this ironic since much of our family-centered heritage here in the US comes from the German immigrants. In his book, The American Way: Family and Community in the Shaping of the American Identity, Alan Carlson devotes an entire chapter to "Hyphenates, Hausfraus, and Baby-saving: The Peculiar Legacy of German America."
It was due heavily to the influence of German-Americans that the model of the housewife tending the children at home was promoted. As an industrial country, it had become very common for both mothers and children to go to work in factories and such. There were more German-Americans than any other immigrant nationality, and it was not until WWI that their influence on culture began to wain (for obvious political reasons).
Of course, it was about the same time that Germany's (and the rest of Europe) culture began to morph and become more secular as well, but I do find it ironic that what was once such a strong family-centered culture could find more remnants of its influence here (in the US) than in the home country.
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folklaur
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CrunchyMom wrote:
| Just because something is cultural doesn't make it okay, though, right? |
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Yes....but.
Child porn - any porn - is wrong. Plain & simple. Wrong and evil.
But - I think, sometimes, the idea of "modesty" isn't quite the same. I guess, I am thinking of, say, indigenous peoples in South America. They wouldn't fall under our idea of "modest" - some of them are completely naked or nearly so - but they aren't really being "immodest" w/i their culture. It isn't sexual in any way. *We* would see their nakedness as immodest, though, but is it?
Also, I know from my Anthropology years, that many, many indigenous peoples do not see breasts as anything sexual. They are for feeding babies. That is their job. Even in cultures where they do keep their lower parts covered, breasts are not usually an issue, as they are not viewed as anything exciting. Our culture gives them a power that other cultures can't even relate to.
So in those senses, I think culture can play a role, an important role, in how we view things.
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Lisbet
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Well, from my experience, German culture is very relaxed about nudity, and very tantelized. Say, a Caress soap commercial, just like here, may use a s*xy woman in provocative poses to 'sell' their soap. Only in Germany, the woman is naked, where here she has stratigic clothing or towels. It's the same 's*x sells' idea, just taken a step further. KWIM? Really though, like someone mentioned before, I see our culture sliding in the same direction, faster than what most of us would like to think too.
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CrunchyMom
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cactus mouse wrote:
[But - I think, sometimes, the idea of "modesty" isn't quite the same. I guess, I am thinking of, say, indigenous peoples in South America. They wouldn't fall under our idea of "modest" - some of them are completely naked or nearly so - but they aren't really being "immodest" w/i their culture. It isn't sexual in any way. *We* would see their nakedness as immodest, though, but is it?
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I get what you are saying, but I think it is somewhat different applying that standard to a pagan culture (which may or may not have the same beliefs regarding s*xuality and morality in general) and cultures in Europe.
Western Civilization came largely out of the Church and Catholic teaching; so, for modern "enlightened" Europeans to become complacent regarding modesty and "liberated" regarding sexuality, it does seem to be a definite break from Christian morality and Catholic tradition.
Immodesty has become the norm culturally; so, perhaps no one there thinks it is a big deal, but from my experience interacting with German teenagers (as a teenager) during my visit there (I went with a youth choir and we spent two weeks in a public school working on a musical and helping with conversational English in the English classes), my impression is that they are equally indifferent about s*xuality and other definite moral issues related to modesty. The assumption, like it is here by many, is that young people will be promiscuous. So, to force them to have co-ed showering facilities, etc..., isn't really less evil due to any sort of cultural mentality. I would also assume that this arrangement was not the norm until fairly recently (I would be very suprised to learn that German school children would have been expected to change in mixed company 100 years ago!).
Plus, there are many issues in many cultures worldwide that, while I couldn't venture to say how they are judged for their actions and how ignorant they are of the objective morality of their behavior, the cultural practices are indeed objectively immoral. I don't see why the same could not apply to modesty?
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mausi
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St. Ann wrote:
Tina, I am curious where you lived in Germany? I have lived in different areas of Germany since 1989. I am back in the States now for 1 year.
"Remember Pope Benedict was born and raised in Bavaria.
Today, there are many good movements within the Church in Germany.
Not that anyone gets the impression that Germany is THE dwelling place of Satan.
Tina, I feel your pain. We went through a terrible episode with our oldest." |
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I lived near Frankfurt and in Bonn and surrounding area for the greater part. I guess I came across quite harsh, but this was the reality of the areas in which I lived and my husband grew up in. We visited a number of churches in the area where we lived and never felt part of the community. That is very different here. My husband could never understand why I liked church so much or even enjoyed it until he came here.
Another thing that I failed to mention, but think it is important to state is that marriages take place first and foremost in town and city halls. It is a legal matter and not a matter of the church. I knew a lot of people and am not aware of anyone having their marriage blessed in a church. It doesn't happen that often. In Bavaria, I believe that the more people practise and therefore have marriages blessed. Again, I could be wrong, but this is what we observed.
I don't want to paint a horrible picture of Germany. There are things in Germany that I miss very much. For example, midwives assist during delivers primarily, not doctors. Doctors are present for emergencies. Another thing is the testing of products for consumer use is much more meticulously tested. There are laws against cancer causing agents in toys and ones that don't pass tests from China for example, don't reach the consumer (for the most part) and if they do, they often get called back.
Once I lived there for a while, I realized that the nudity thing wasn't perceived like it is here. I was shocked, but never grossed out. Commercials for some shows here are worse than a soap commercial there. Does this make any sense? I didn't feel like it was being pushed on me or that it was a sex sells thing. They were tastfully done for the most part with exceptions of course. I noticed that German television was becoming more Americanized and that less quality television was being produced. Again this is off topic and I should try to keep my posts shorter.
God Bless.
Tina
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Lisbet
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I don't want to paint a poor picture of Germany either. I have some very fond memories of some things my mother carried on from her culture in my upbringing, (ohh, how I would love on of my Oma's brotchen!!) but the nudity/sexuality thing was not one of them. It was very unhealthy for me, and I carry alot of baggage from it. Again though, this may be more just my odd family rather than German culture, but I do know it played into it at least some.
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folklaur
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CrunchyMom wrote:
Plus, there are many issues in many cultures worldwide that, while I couldn't venture to say how they are judged for their actions and how ignorant they are of the objective morality of their behavior, the cultural practices are indeed objectively immoral. I don't see why the same could not apply to modesty? |
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I have been thinking about this quite a bit today.
I think, I have to disagree with the idea presented of modesty and objective immorality.
In the Middle Ages, a woman showing her ankles would be considered a trollop - it was considered totally immodest. A woman wearing pants during Colonial American times - that would be totally immodest. However, now, I can wear flip-flops, and a pair of jeans, and not be immodest at all. It is relative to the culture, even in the West.
As an aside, I really don't think indigenous tribe automatically = pagan. Many are, probably, sure, but I don't think it is synonymous.
Thank you for the good discussion!
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guitarnan
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Many countries have civil marriage requirements. France, for one. (We have been to French and German weddings...you go to the city hall, then to the church.) In that regard, they do the "separation of church and state" thing more rigorously than we do. I don't know how the tradition arose in Germany; in France it dates back to the French Revolution.
I think we have to be careful about discussing modesty and its implications. I lived for five years in Italy and I can tell you that summer attire for young women is more tight-fitting and revealing than most things women wear here...but that does not mean Italians are more promiscuous than we are. It means they live in a warm, sticky climate where air conditioning is still an unaffordable luxury for many people.
I talked with a friend yesterday who homeschools and has lived in Germany several times - in fact she just returned from several months there. She gave a talk to a group of moms at her German church about homeschooling. She said that several of them told her they thought the idea was crazy at first, but once she explained it, and described the benefits, they really liked the concept and could see why she had chosen to homeschool. I was very happy to hear this, especially given the conversation here.
Maybe more of us need to make friends with German families and "plant" tiny seeds!
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CrunchyMom
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cactus mouse wrote:
CrunchyMom wrote:
Plus, there are many issues in many cultures worldwide that, while I couldn't venture to say how they are judged for their actions and how ignorant they are of the objective morality of their behavior, the cultural practices are indeed objectively immoral. I don't see why the same could not apply to modesty? |
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I have been thinking about this quite a bit today.
I think, I have to disagree with the idea presented of modesty and objective immorality.
In the Middle Ages, a woman showing her ankles would be considered a trollop - it was considered totally immodest. A woman wearing pants during Colonial American times - that would be totally immodest. However, now, I can wear flip-flops, and a pair of jeans, and not be immodest at all. It is relative to the culture, even in the West.
As an aside, I really don't think indigenous tribe automatically = pagan. Many are, probably, sure, but I don't think it is synonymous.
Thank you for the good discussion! |
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I think it usually does equal pagan, at least from my definition and the one found here:
Paganism
I am not prepared to argue that modesty is objective morality in different cultures--though, I think a strong argument could be made for the case, I don't really think it should be argued here and now!
I also don't agree that Italians are modest in tighter, more revealing clothes than we are just because they are in a hotter climate without air conditioning. Middle Eastern cultures wear robes because covering your skin with a natural fiber like cotton can actually be cooler than removing clothing. Plus, from the stories I've heard from those traveling, the incident as described above of the man coming on to a strange woman by grabbing her is not isolated. In general, the cultures seem quite open about such things, and while I might buy that an isolated tribe in South America doesn't see revealing tops or tight pants as particularly tantalizing, I think that Europeans, in general as a culture, do! The traditional garb of these countries for most of their history was not particularly revealing in spite of their climate. Even the Romans wore robes/togas.
I guess all this is kind of off topic--I'm just not convinced you can write off the practices in the schools in Germany as merely a cultural difference. It may be "culturally" acceptable in the same way other things have become culturally acceptable here, but I think it is due to the rise in secularism, not because of anything inherently found in their culture or history. And secularism is in essence an attack on Christianity.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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Just to add, a large part of Germany was communist until recently, and I think that the acceptance of secularism and rejection of God is probably due in large part to the forced removal of God and religion entirely from the public sphere--much like it is in Russia.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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graciefaith
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Yes, even off base military families can homeschool legally in Germany. We thought we were going to be stationed there so i did some research on it.
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Blessed wife and mom of 3 girls, Sept. '01, Dec. '02 and Oct. '07
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Germany declares war on homeschoolers
