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Martha
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I'm tired to death of being the umm meany mom!!
Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but this issue has been happening on regular basis lately and it's seriously ticking me off. Here's the deal.
Okay. You, (because I'm sure all of you do this - right?), you teach your kids to mind their manner, be polite, take turns, let others speak, follow directions, blahblahblah...
The you go somewhere. Say camping trip with your girls and their fellow girl scouters. And at every turn your kid gets the shaft for it. You know, "nice finishing last" kind of thing?
The lady raises her hand and says, "Who wants to be in the skit?" And all the louder rowdier girls jump up, while a small group raises their hands and are ignored. One of them notes in a not rude or whiny tone, but a puzzled voice, "Hey, we wanted to do it? Don't we get a turn?" Not that you could have heard her about the yelling of another girl that "NOOO! I WANT TO DO IT THIS TIME!" The next time it happens one of those girls (Yes MY baby girl! I gladly admit it!) says with a hint of hurt and anger says, thinking surely the only acceptable explaination for this is lack of awareness, "Hey MY hand was raised! Can I join please?" And some poor unsuspecting mother laughingly says, "oh someone is tattling they feel left out."
Lord - the fact I didn't thump her one should have shaved off at least an hour in purgatory for me. 
The guy up front starts giving kids prizes for answering questions and in no time a horde of kids get wind and instead of waiting patiently for their turn, run up and demand theirs. (sans any Q & A) And oh yeah, he's out when your kid who was sitting right in front him asks if he can answer a question. Please?
Sorry kid. First come, first served.
Well now. There's another hour shaved for me.
I hate this.  
My kids look up at me like, "Why me? Why do I have to be the good kid? Why are you so mean and strict? Why can't I just do what the other kids are doing and actually get something for it for once?"
If I say something, and I'm one of "those" moms that almost always steps in and does only to get the dirty looks and eye rolls from everyone else for it. (Either because they feel, maybe rightly, that I'm stepping on toes or simply think I'm too strict or no fun or not kid friendly.) Even the supposed leaders in these things. One should note that if the leaders above had insisted on respect it wouldn't have happended!
I'm sick and tired of always being the party pooper or, as a friend in the same boat put it, the b- mom. 
But I don't want to teach my kids that nice finishes last either or that it's okay to act like that to get what you want. To be ignorant and inconsiderate of everyone else and without civil curtesy. And lately this is certainly the message they are getting. And this is everywhere. A serious herde/mob/rogue wolf pack peeking order mentality. Extended family, church, homeschool, private/public school, extracurriculiar events...ARGH!!!!
Okay. Rant over.
Now the questions.
What do you do about this?
How do you handle these things?
How do you let your kids handle it?
Thank you. I'll take my answer off air. 
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Martha
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SallyT
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I don't know. I hate that kind of thing, too. It happens to certain personalities in my house more than others, which probably means I've done a better job with some than with others, I don't know.
In the co-op English class I'm teaching, this has been a problem, usually divided along gender lines. I ask a question, the girls raise their hands, and before I can call on somebody, one of the boys shouts out the answer. They're really well-behaved, nice kids, just . . . impetuous? I've started telling them I can't hear them unless their hands are up, and really making an issue of it, which means that I really have to make myself NOT reflexively look at the person who's speaking, instead of the person with her hand up, patiently. That's incredibly hard, and I have to work at it, but this week's class was much better in that regard. It can be done!
The girls in my class are reporting the same problem in their Latin class, taught by the parish priest who gave us classroom space in his church. I'm thinking I need to have a word with Father about it, because the girls aren't going to! They really like him, but that's just too scary, I can tell.
So the thought I'm having as I write this is that this is one of those situations really needing grownup intervention behind the scenes, and pre-emptively. I don't think a kid can handle this sort of thing very well alone, because he/she inevitably comes off sounding like a whiner, which nobody wants. Before a group event, I might maybe have a quiet word with whoever's leading it, saying that I've been noticing that a pattern is emerging of quieter kids -- not necessarily my own kids, don't want to sound like Stage Mommie Dearest, but quieter kids in general -- getting passed over for things because frankly, it's naturally easier to notice the "assertive"/"extroverted" children first, been there myself, blah blah blah, BUT maybe we could find a way to spread things out more so that everyone in the group gets a chance to do something?
Or something like that. The leader's not doing the "assertive" kids any favors by allowing them to be rude, and it's genuinely not fair or right that rudeness is allowed to carry the day. Of course, this assumes that the leader is capable of being a leader, which is to say actually giving directions like, "I will only choose people who are sitting quietly with their hands up," instead of just going "Oh, hey! Hey! You guys! Okay! Okay!" and letting the loud ones run all over him or her.
Which I say because I'm having to be very deliberate about making sure that all the kids in my class get to speak, and even though I know the right thing to do, it's still not easy. And I'm grateful for the reminder about how those quieter kids feel!
Sally
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folklaur
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Oh, Martha,
I'm so sorry, no advice, but yes, I have BTDT (and still doing it...). I am sure my children will attest to me being in the "mean mom" camp.
sigh.
I feel bad for the kids. And yes, there have been MANY a parent I would have liked to thump too  !
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Philothea
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I probably wouldn't stick around in a class where that was being tolerated. It would drive me insane. Kudos to you for trying to find a way to fix it.
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mimmyof5
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Oh Martha,
My first thought was 'it still happens to me, and I'm 47'! Some of it might be a personality thing. I'm quiet, not aggressive. My dh is the same way. He gets run over at work. We were taught manners - that it was rude to interrupt or speak out of turn. But we're also naturally more quiet people. We do wonder if some of these other adults were ever taught any manners as children.
I've really had to come out of my shell to stand up for my children. Poor kids got a double whammy with a quiet mom and dad!!! Plus, if they were rude they would have to answer to us later. I agree that this is something that the children themselves can't handle, and an adult, behind the scenes, should be saying something. I'm always surprised at other parents for not telling their children to be polite. So often it seems as if they're oblivious to the rude behavior.
I would probably say something to the leader after the meeting and see what happens. My dh has actually sometimes taken our child by the hand up to teacher/leader to make sure they don't get left out. Then he would probably make some little comment about how funny it is how the kid who raises his hand politely is always the one getting left out!
But definitely, I think something needs to be said.
Janet
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JenniferS
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I could have posted Janet's reply. I so hate confrontation, but I wish I didn't. And I have never rolled my eyes at the Mom's like you, Martha. I have always wished I was more like you. I hate situations like that! UGH!
Jen
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Red Cardigan
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This is one of the reasons I try to avoid large group activities. I agree with you--who wants to have all that hard parenting work undone by an afternoon with kids who get rewarded for bad behavior? 
I don't blame the kids; it is the responsibility of the adults in their lives to insist on the rules, and to refuse to reward children for breaking them. But I dislike putting my kids into a situation where they're going to be "punished" for being good.
And maybe I'm just sensitive to this because I only have girls, but it seems that so many people are willing to give boys a pass for this kind of thing! Why is it that girls are expected to sit quietly and raise their hands, as Sally said above, but it's okay for the boys to shout out the answers? Things my girls would be criticized harshly for get overlooked indulgently as "boys will be boys" when a boy does it. What would be called "obnoxious" in one of my daughters gets chuckled over as "boisterous" or "spirited" in a boy. Yes, I know boys and girls are very different, and I'm certainly no feminist, but I get tired of this attitude that girls should be quiet, mannerly, and well-behaved, while any boy who behaves that way is just a "wimp" or a "nerd" and not a REAL boy.
Sorry for this slightly off-topic rant. But I get about this attitude, because I see it as two things: unfair to the girls, and unfair to the really well-behaved boys out there who get judged as somehow "unmanly" for not being rude and selfish.
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Martha
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Okay... I don't know if I've been clear.
My kids aren't very quiet by nature. Or even all that shy most of the time. (After all they are MY kids!  )
This is a situation of people letting kids be bratty and getting annoyed at ME for not having much patience for it. I do say something and get the "vibe", the "who peed in your cereal this morning" look. They say things like,
Oh they're just excited!
They're just kids you know!
Oh they're just having fun!
Relax!
I don't understand it, but I'm mighty tired of it.
I always make it a point to never say anything in front of the kids or to naysay, undermine, or whatever who ever is in charge.
The impression I get is this is NOT an issue of unawareness, but an issue of simply thinking "kids will be kids" and not caring to remember we are raising adults?
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marianne
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BTDT!
Last spring, at his first t-ball game, my ds7 was the only one on his t-ball team to not get a chance to bat, b/c everyone else was jumping up and down screaming for their turn, and since he didn't, they figured he'd already batted. He just looked so pathetic standing there with this huge batting helmet on his little head, looking confused, but too mild mannered to march up to the coach and demand his turn. I didn't handle it as graciously as you, though - I said something (nicely) and the coaches gladly gave him the first bat the next time. It was painful and I made a small scene by going ONTO THE FIELD, but that is my baby and obviously no one else was looking out for him.
And funny you should mention Girl Scouts - I am a new leader this year for my dd's troop and I am APPALLED at the lack of maturity and the very behaviors that you are describing. My dd might sometimes deteriorate to some of that behavior ("me first") at home with her brothers, but she would *NEVER* act that way in a group of girls her age. I have been so disappointed all year at the fact that she is being exposed to all this.
Feeling for you!
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Martha
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For me, I get that kids will do these sorts of things. It's a given if allowed they will become wild heathens, my kids included.
What is driving me insane is the adults allowing it or worse, giving me the hair eye for not going with the flow and rocking the boat.
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ALmom
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Well we've been the stick in the muds about the batter batter stuff. It is plain poor sportsmanlike conduct and isn't even allowed in professional ball - so our son didn't do it. He rooted for whatever good things his team did. The coach said something to him about not having team spirit or some such thing and my son was a bit confused. We explained to the coach that we did not allow this and would not allow it and why. He never got on my sons case again, but the team did what all other little leagues did. (Perhaps I was sensitive to this as this son had some eye-hand issues and it took intense concentration to do even simple tasks. He didn't have a chance with the cat calling).
In situation you are describing, I think I'd take one of two approaches. They could continue as long as their behavior did not deteriorate and they were benefitting somehow OR if that seemed too much to ask, we would personally find something more in keeping with our values to substitute in its place. I'd find something they have been wanting for a long time and substitute along these lines so it isn't a big denial for being good - but you found your own way to reinforce their good behavior. It is a tough balancing act.
Janet
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jugglingpaynes
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I'm assuming you are dealing with a group that includes children who are in school?
I've found that in large groups with schoolkids it is better if my more polite kids sit at the front. They are less likely to be missed than if they sit in the back of (or even the middle of)the group. Hubby says I'm being snobbish. Let me explain. Schoolchildren are used to being told what to do, when to sit, where to go, all day long, so they sometimes don't know how to conduct themselves outside of that environment. When adult organizers indulge the wrong behavior "because the children are just having fun" kids take this as a sign that what they're doing is OK.
Among a large group of homeschooled children, we don't usually experience this. The kids are much more aware of each other's existence and sensitive to their peers. But all children get excited. It shows a lack of control on the part of the person/people running the event if things get out of control. I've been a children's entertainer and I've organized homeschooling and public events at our library. I've always found that it is MY job to make sure everyone is involved in my activity.
You say that at one point there was a guy doing a Q&A and giving out prizes. When everyone started getting up, he should have made the rules clear or else have enough for all. When I have done facepainting, I make it clear that I will not do more than one picture per face so that everyone who wants to has a chance to be painted. When you explain it to them, kids are very understanding about this.
Peace and Laughter,
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SallyT
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I see what you mean, Martha. It's the adults' thinking you're some kind of weirdo for having this bizarre expectation that children should have self-control and consideration for others and not just behave like selfish louts, instead of just being laid-back and relaaaaaaaxed . . . I feel for you all over again. I hate feeling like the wet blanket. And now that I think of it, maybe that's why we avoid lots of large-group stuff, too.
Sally
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mariB
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Wow! I am admiring your kids. Sounds like too much of a frenzy at that group. When I taught music(preschool), I always made sure I rewarded good behavior first while the wild ones would have to wait.
I've pulled my children out of groups because of that very thing. I don't want my children thinking that wild behavior is O.K. I think a lot has to do with what kind of adult is running the group.
We have been very fortunate in the past to have found group leaders that encourage polite behavior:)
My husband coached a soccer team one year that was so unruly. If they talked back or refused to do what he required of them, the had to run laps.
The bad behavior diminished greatly.
Martha, it sounds like you are a wonderful parent! I've gotten glares from people when I don't agree with is going on in a group...but it doesn't really matter what they think. As I tell my kids, "Pray about everything. It really boils down to one thing in life...pleasing the Lord."
Oh, by the way. I hate parties with pinatas where kids run wild and shove others out of the way to get to the candy. Easter egg hunts were very controlled at my SIL's house because she divided groups by ages and kids were only allowed to collect a certain number of eggs!
Blessings,
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julia s.
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Martha,
Do you notice it is worse with the girls than the boys. Not so much the behavior of the kids, but the lack of response by moms and dads to say anything to them.
I only have boys, but I'm amazed at what flies with girls when we are in mixed groups. The moms just seem to accept it as regular acceptable behavior. Maybe it is the women's movement pushing their girls to be more assertive, but I have a friend with a little girl and I'm awed at all she has to do to raise her daughter to be a good wholesome girl in today's world. Her daughter goes to public school too which I think makes the task even that more daunting.
I'm not so much trying to hi-jack the thread as I think there is some difference in the genders (perhaps because dads don't discipline girls as much as they do boys) or maybe it's an outsider looking in kind of thing.
Also, I think parents are just unaccustomed to parenting. They send their kids off to these activities so they can get a break and not have to be "the bad mom" and let someone else take over. That's just the way society seems oriented. I'm not saying they don't care about their kids or love them, I just think they don't have the skills to deal with their kids the way we do who are around them all the time.
I don't have any real great answers. Sometimes I do encourage my kids to jump in the fray. Most of the time I just shrug my shoulders at them from across the room in sympathy for what they must be going through and usually afterward we talk about how rude the other kids were and how the person in charge didn't handle things very well. I make sure they do not feel bad for following good manners and I put the blame where it belongs -- on the other kids, their parents, and the adult in charge -- not me or them.
Although it doesn't solve everything I think this works. That way they can problem solve it and realize that sometimes there is no great solution to out of control situation and they did the best thing.
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hylabrook1
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Julia -
Parents who are unaccustomed to parenting... That's a thought I have been having a lot lately, but haven't been able to articulate. Thanks for giving the *words*. From my experience, both past and recent, I would like to mull over that idea; it seems to say so much about what I observe.
Peace,
Nancy
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onemoretracy
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julia s. wrote:
Also, I think parents are just unaccustomed to parenting.
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That is quite an observation. I have noticed how many moms I meet that are almost scared of their kids! They seem to feel very uneasy at their parenting role.
I know I make mistakes as a mom, for as much as I try to do my best in my vocation. However, for the most part I am very confident in my parenting role. I am not always perfect, but I know and act my role as best I can. That does include intervening when my kids are acting inappropriately for the occasion. I too have been witness to events with many parents sitting on the sidelines while they kids act like wild, rude animals. I am not speaking of times of general kids rowdiness either, but just some truly inappropriate behavior.
I think what we need to do is encourage other parents in their roles. We can do this by our gentle and loving but firm examples and also by engaging other moms in conversation just to build those relationships. Also the sensitvity to this kind of behavior can vary alot. I know I am far less tolerant of this kind of stuff than my DH so we talk about it often and I try to make sure I am not being overly sensitive and I try to point out times when I think he could step up the awareness
I do not see this as a homeschool vs. regular school problem, or even a boy or girl thing, but just a general generational and societal issue.
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julia s.
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I'm kind of basing my parenting comment on a few people I used to know who would get very anxious when their kids had off from school or the daycare was closed. They used to plan out their day as if it were some sort of military ops. mission.
I know how anxious I was when I first started parenting (the first year or so) and I used to hyper plan my days, but it wore off as the years went on and I realized nothing was going to come undone if we just "hung out" sometimes. I think some people never get to that kind of a comfort with their kids because they don't really have to -- there is always an activity or a party or sport practice/game. And the few hours in the evening just aren't going to bring about a relationship based on things intrinsic to the family (not externally from school/after school activities or friends).
There are just so many ways to disconnect from the human experience these days. Even I who am with my kids find myself doing it if I let myself go online too much, or I turn the television or radio on a lot. Even dinner which gets whipped in the microwave or PB&J'd to death because I want to be done with it. I don't think it's just the problem of parents, but as Tracy stated a societal issue.
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TracyQ
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I'm meeting many adults these days who don't use manners themselves, and therefore don't expect it from their children, or anyone else's children. They don't think anything's wrong with how their children are acting when they act the way they do, so they think there's something wrong then with the people who do use manners, and expect others to as well.
Just my observations lately on the matter. 
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ALmom
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This has been interesting. One thing I thought I'd pass on - just thinking back to some of the obnoxious behaviors in our household that I learned to handle from someone else's children. There is something about not having been deliberately trained and certain family habits that we don't notice until God uses someone else to bring out attention to the matter. I had a toddler (one of my older children now) that grabbed food. We had another family's children over (older children who were staying with our 2 older and I was keeping an eye for the other mom so the mom wasn't even present). Her children were so absolutely polite - they offered their chips to my children to share with them, etc. It was the genuine shock on their face when they saw my toddler scoop and grab and basically greedily hog this coveted food that caught my attention and made me aware that this was something we would have to deliberately work on in our house. These children never said a word to me about anything, never complained or anything. They, I presume, simply offered it up as no one would have wanted the chips even as I said something to my toddler. On that occassion the greedy child did seem to benefit - But their good example taught this mama something. We began to consciously do more asking of sacrifices from ourselves and our children. It isn't all about me.
Recently, I'm doing CHC with my 1st grader and realizing that a certain chaos in our family is starting to get under our skin. The virtue card was on not interrupting - and whalla, I knew what it was finally. But, then I realized where my children had learned this "skill." I and really my whole family are habitual interrupters. We are now seriously working on this in with myself and our children. Why our oldest child didn't develop this bad habit, I really don't know - but I'm glad God provided for our lack because we are just now realizing this habit in ourselves. People have obviously been very kind and patient with me over the years.
I have learned so much so often from those who will not judge me but offer me their patient acceptance and good example. However, in a mob, you simply cannot benefit or provide benefit to others as easily as there is some other kind of mob mentality that takes over. It is in the one on one or very small group settings that provide more opportunity unless there is a strong, organized adult leader with the large group.
I'm not sure I would have noticed in a mob setting. But being able to be with those who are more practiced in these social virtues has been a real blessing when it has been one other family or a small group.
Janet
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Okay a rant and ?
