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missionfamily
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| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 6:47am | IP Logged
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I think we may also need to realize that maybe a moderator is protecting her own attempt at holiness when she shuts down a thread. If she can no longer moderate it objectively and without her own emotion in the way, maybe it is in HER best interest to close it down and let the discussion reform in another way or under another's care. Yes, we are moderated for our own protection, but the moderators do in fact have their own souls to consider as well. Just a thought to consider.
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Colleen
dh Greg
mom to Quinn,Gabriel, Brendan,Evan, Kolbe, and sweet St. Bryce
Footprints on the Fridge
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Bookswithtea
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Fwiw, moderating is a *tough* job. I've done it in three other communities over the years, and whenever a topic gets heated, my family "loses" me for a significant part of each day, my dh is more likely to see the back of my head than my face after the kids are in bed, and honestly, I usually go to bed wishing I had never agreed to moderate in the first place. And these are also nice Christian communities. 
Unmoderated boards require a certain toughness of skin that many homeschool women do not wish to acquire. 
Moderating is an often thankless and exhausting job, and its hard to make decisions knowing that everyone is going to consider and judge whether or not they made the right decision.
Martha is right that moderators will normally pull public questions like this and redirect the post-er to PM. I don't think anyone has been uncharitable in this thread, btw. Just that its a blessing to be able to ask the question and discuss it publicly.
As someone who has taken the heat more times than I can remember now, I guess what I'm saying is that its hard to make these kinds of decisions...harder than it seems from the member-side of the monitor. I don't know if I would have locked the thread or redirected it or just continued to watch. But I suspect the decision was made with consideration not only for our community but also with consideration for the moderator's families.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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JennGM
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Just FYI, no thread is locked by a sole moderator's decision. The moderators all work closely together to come to a unified decision and action.
We all have to remember that the written word is sometimes harder to convey all our thoughts and feelings, and can easily be miscontrued. It's important in discussions that can be controversial to stick to the philosophy or subject at hand, rather than question the person behend it.
There have been very few threads that have been closed in the time this board has been open. And that's quite amazing.
Like Books and Martha have mentioned, moderating takes up a lot of time and energy away from our own family life. This board has become quite large, with over 1000 registered members. The discussions can come quite fast and furious, and in this case, heated and too personal. Family and Faith come first. When more than one person (and I'm not only talking about moderators) are losing sleep, getting anxious, spending an overly amount of time over a thread topic, then our balance and purpose has been skewed.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
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Martha
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| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 8:52am | IP Logged
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chicken lady wrote:
Because sometimes a crazy bird starts clucking to loud  Got to get those loose hens back in the coop |
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A very good way of putting it!
cluck! cluck! 
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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Jane Ramsey
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Angie Mc wrote:
From my perspective, the topic got personal, circular, and heated. We did discuss the spirtual foundation of the Waldorf method to the best of this group of moderators abilities at this time. I'm sorry that you were disappointed. I'm also happy that you can continue the discussion with Lissa. |
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I would agree that it got "personal" only in the sense that I was asking Elizabeth, personally, to clarify her positions and statements, but "personal" does not equal "uncharitable." The moderator mentioned someone making DESTRUCTIVE comments--by which I assume she meant me--and that is just not accurate or fair.
I would think that since Elizabeth was the one promoting this method and trying to inform everyone else about it, she would be willing to answer those questions. If the discussion of the spiritual aspects went beyond her abilities to answer, she could have stated that and we could have moved on.
I am also glad we can continue the converstaion with Lissa, but I am sorry that that was the only way it COULD continue.
As always, if anyone wants to discuss any of this with me personally, they call PM or email me (you can find my email on my blog). If I have offended or hurt anyone, I beg them to contact me so that we can restore peace between us. I do not know how to contact Elizabeth or I would try to do that.
God bless all here.
Jane
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LisaR
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just wondering here: how many hours per week/day DO the moderators spend on this board?? It just seems like it could be alot of time/effort - do any of you ever get a break, burn out, get frustrated?
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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mrsgranola
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Jane Ramsey wrote:
I would agree that it got "personal" only in the sense that I was asking Elizabeth, personally, to clarify her positions and statements, but "personal" does not equal "uncharitable." The moderator mentioned someone making DESTRUCTIVE comments--by which I assume she meant me--and that is just not accurate or fair.
I would think that since Elizabeth was the one promoting this method and trying to inform everyone else about it, she would be willing to answer those questions. If the discussion of the spiritual aspects went beyond her abilities to answer, she could have stated that and we could have moved on.
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I do see both sides of this. From my reading, it would have made sense for clarification rather than assuming Jane was making a personal attack. Words on a screen can be so tricky to interpret, however. So what I read may have indeed "sounded" like a personal attack to someone else. It's all about our own mood when we're reading it, the history we have with the subject matter, our hot-buttons, history with the writer,etc.
God bless all the moderators and the 4Real staff! I really do appreciate all the hard work you do!
JoAnna
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Mom to Jacob, Grace, Mary, Lucas, Emma, Carrie and Gianna
Parente Adventures
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Lissa
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Angie Mc wrote:
Well...Lissa did offer to take on that conversation so the conversation can continue at her place. That seems like a practical solution to me. We're swamped here, she has the time and interest there. Win-win!
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Well, to be honest, Angie, I *don't* exactly have the time. I am *making* the time because I think it's an important issue to discuss, and Jane asked fair and reasonable questions.
Truly, I am very happy to be able to help, but in this case I'm sorry it was necessary.
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Lissa
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Cindy Mac
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If anyone would like to contact Elizabeth, her email address is on her blog (all the way on the bottom underneath the sidebar on the left hand side). You will get an auto-response since she is taking this week off from the computer to celebrate her kids' birthdays. She's also not responding to PMs for the same reason.
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Cindy - wife to Chris, mommy to my 4 sons!
Kellys Klassroom Korner
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Bridget
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Jane Ramsey wrote:
I would think that since Elizabeth was the one promoting this method and trying to inform everyone else about it, she would be willing to answer those questions. If the discussion of the spiritual aspects went beyond her abilities to answer, she could have stated that and we could have moved on.
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The important thing right now seems to be that many need a clear explanation of the problems with Waldorf and how a Catholic can use parts of Waldorf and reconcile those problems without compromising their faith. Not specifically how Elizabeth does that.
I am actually interested in that as well since Waldorf comes up about once a year. I am quite ignorant of it.
So, instead of being frustrated about why the discussion can't be here, or why certain people are not doing what we want them to do, lets focus on getting the information where it can be discussed.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Martha
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LisaR wrote:
just wondering here: how many hours per week/day DO the moderators spend on this board?? It just seems like it could be alot of time/effort - do any of you ever get a break, burn out, get frustrated?
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I don't know the personal experience on THIS board, but I'm guessing it's nearly a full-time job due to the size of the board and I'm sure they do get burnt out and have times when they get frustrated.
If they are "short handed" as mentioned previously, they may not have time to delve deep into threads, thus they have to make quicker assessments of the "tone" and "direction" of the thread. It's not personal, just the way it goesduring those times.
So why not recruit more mods? Well it's truely not that easy and mods should be carefully considered because well... not everyone should be or realisticly can be a moderator.
As for the spiritual aspects of Waldorf...
I think these should be discussed!! However, especially in forums such as this one, our faith is extremely near and dear to our hearts and imparting it to our kids is probably our hearts' greatest desire. So it's a fine line between questioning the spirituality of the method and questioning the spirituality of the person. Now, I don't think anyone intends to do that, (and certainly not with our dear Elizabeth!!) but a mother's heart can be a bit tender on these things. Or at least MINE can be. 
I had a very "ah-ha" moment reading the very heated KIC/Sedes vs Charlotte Mason threads that I would have loved to explore for example, but those fires were too hot even for me. But I'm very glad 4RL was having those discussions because I really gleaned some valuble insights I wouldn't have received otherwise and I've adjusted our homeschooling a bit because of it.
So maybe there needs to be yet another forum (yikes there's a LOT of forums here!) for serious debate exchange over methodologies?
I'll also say those with hurt feeling should, but usually don't, post their sentiments. It's a very vulnerable feeling even online making it hard to articulate in writing very well and most people tend to retreat when hurt rather than confront. Moderators know this and with experience can often quickly foretell the situation and the mods here seem to have acted on the experience.
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Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 10:15am | IP Logged
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Yikes, since I've started writing this reply, several posts have come through...my sluggish writing just might make this post obsolete! I'm coming in after Jane's post (quotes below) and I feel that there has been a misunderstanding here. I hope this helps.
Jane Ramsey wrote:
| I would agree that it got "personal" only in the sense that I was asking Elizabeth, personally, to clarify her positions and statements, but "personal" does not equal "uncharitable." The moderator mentioned someone making DESTRUCTIVE comments... |
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OK...I'll give you that the word "destructive" is a strong one and moderators need to be careful with the words we choose to use. Considering all the words that we write a day, can you give us this one? Can we assume good intent and understand it as meaning that comments were made that were feeling devisive or hurtful from the perspective of some moderators?
Jane Ramsey wrote:
--by which I assume she meant me--and that is just not accurate or fair.
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And this is the tricky part, several members began to take things personally and make assumptions, certainly not just you, Jane. If a moderator did have a personal concern with you and only you, you would have been contacted by PM. It was the topic itself that became too tough for the moderators at this time.
Jane Ramsey wrote:
| I would think that since Elizabeth was the one promoting this method and trying to inform everyone else about it, she would be willing to answer those questions. |
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I can't speak for Elizabeth, and she can correct me if I'm too far off here, but I can put myself in her shoes. Have you ever started one conversation only to find yourself in another one? The difference between talking about a method and talking about a philosophy can sure be a big one. Most recently my dh sat for a professional board certification which was all about philosophy, and my poor dh is Mr. Method! It was really tough for him. (BTW, you all prayed for this special intention and he did well, thank you.)
Jane Ramsey wrote:
If the discussion of the spiritual aspects went beyond her abilities to answer, she could have stated that and we could have moved on.
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But, what if she couldn't for some reason at the time? This is where moderators step in for each other, so that we can share the load and not need to feel personally available 24/7. Since we, the moderators have shared that this discussion is beyond our abilities at this time, we would like to move on.
Jane Ramsey wrote:
I am also glad we can continue the converstaion with Lissa, but I am sorry that that was the only way it COULD continue.
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I am sorry we let you down, Jane. I really am. It is very humbling to say that we simply aren't up to moderating this topic for a variety of reasons.
Jane Ramsey wrote:
As always, if anyone wants to discuss any of this with me personally, they call PM or email me (you can find my email on my blog). If I have offended or hurt anyone, I beg them to contact me so that we can restore peace between us. I do not know how to contact Elizabeth or I would try to do that.
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Thanks for making yourself available, Jane, and I see that Elizabeth's contact information was posted. I appreciate your honesty and the many contributions you have made to this topic and board at large. You certainly haven't offended or hurt me - promise promise - if a moderator feels the need to restore peace at anytime with any member, they do PM so no PM means no worries (not that PMs should make anyone worry .)
Love,
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Angie Mc
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| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 10:22am | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
Angie Mc wrote:
Well...Lissa did offer to take on that conversation so the conversation can continue at her place. That seems like a practical solution to me. We're swamped here, she has the time and interest there. Win-win!
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Well, to be honest, Angie, I *don't* exactly have the time. I am *making* the time because I think it's an important issue to discuss, and Jane asked fair and reasonable questions.
Truly, I am very happy to be able to help, but in this case I'm sorry it was necessary. |
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I'm sorry I misrepresented you, Lissa. Thank you for clarifying.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 10:26am | IP Logged
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My son is home for fewer than 24 hours to celebrate his birthday. His father leaves this afternoon. My daughter turns 5 tomorrow. The rest of the week is really public knowledge since my birthday schedule has been linked.
Ladies, a child turns five once in a lifetime. The same can be said of other birthdays. Last year at this time, I was overdue expecting my eighth baby. To say that birthdays got the short shrift is an understatement. This year, I'm not going to let that happen. I'm going to be completely dedicated to my children and to the joy that should come with celebrating feasts. I cannot do that and constantly be checking threads where people are demanding something of me. As much as I love people here, no one here has a "right" to me or my time.
Someone asked if it's a fulltime job. There have been weeks it's more than that. That is completely and totally inappropriate.
She turns five once in a lifetime. I mean to be there, totally, for it. My decision has far less to do with any of you and far more to do to my family and the fulfillment of my vocation.
This entire fiasco has given me great food for thought.
I think God is calling me to be with my family.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Willa
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| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 10:26am | IP Logged
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LisaR wrote:
just wondering here: how many hours per week/day DO the moderators spend on this board?? It just seems like it could be alot of time/effort - do any of you ever get a break, burn out, get frustrated?
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In general, I think some moderators are more busy and on-the-spot than others. Some forums (fora??) are more controversial than others. My Special Blessings and Classical ones tend to be very calm, because many fewer "hot topics" seem to come up on there (though I'm sure there's the potential in any forum).
I don't think Elizabeth gets much of a break.... which makes me sad. Truly, I liked the way she and others were sharing something that had brought joy to their homeschools. I was following the thread with a lot of interest.
I did and do think that a concern for the orthodoxy of the philosophy was relevant, though. I think other people than Elizabeth are in a better position to disuss those questions, so I am glad Lissa is taking it on because if I remember rightly, she does have some background knowledge about the Waldorf philosophy.
St Paul says "Test everything; hold fast to what is good" and Pope Pius quotes one of the church fathers to the effect that we act like the bee and take the honey from the flower and leave the unpalatable part.
So to me there seems to be room both for the testing part and for the taking the good part, and I don't think they necessarily have to be done by the same person. Taking the honey seems to be the key part; in this case, all the actual things that were being said in favor of Waldorf were about specific things that were very compatible with Catholicism.
Elizabeth and others expressed their understanding of the truth and beauty in the method; I am not sure if it is their job to express the problematic part, as long as somebody does.
I wrote another version of this and accidentally hit the post before I meant to. If that one comes to your inbox, I apologize, since it wasn't meant to be published.
Which tells me I probably ought to get off here before I make any more mistakes. Angie is right -- it's a tricky business being moderator, and no one can claim to get it right all the time. I think good intentions and sincerity and good planning can make up for a lot, but sometimes there will be things that get ironed out along the way.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Willa
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| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 10:30am | IP Logged
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Oops, I cross-posted with you, Elizabeth.
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AMDG
Willa
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Take Up and Read
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Natalia
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There is something that has been in my mind and I don't know if I can put it into words. I am afraid I'll offend somebody or add fuel to the fire :-)
I don't think anybody was promoting the Waldorf method. Promoting means to actively say go and buy this. I also think that there are people that are more influential than others. Some people here are very gifted with their words. They can paint a picture so well. They describe their educational experience with such beauty and enthusiasm that it makes me want to be like them. Great gifts means a greater responsibility!
I hate for Elizabeth or Lissa or any other of the really gifted writers to feel that they have to second guess everything they say. But there is a reality: when some of the more recognized members of this group say something it often carries more weight than if, lets see, I say it.
Think about the times something as simple as ribbons or candles (or whatever it was)has been talked about here and there has been so many purchases that the vendor runs out! I am sure that Waldorf suppliers have sold a lot of beeswax crayons in the last weeks. So there is definite power in the words spoken here. That is something to think about and keep in mind.
I don't think that anybody has been irresponsibly promoting anything. But I think it is good to stop and think of the responsibilities that this forum and our blogs have placed on our shoulders. And unfortunately the responsibility isn't equal. Some carry a heavier burden and we should always keep them in our prayers.
As for closing the threads, well I don't know. I would not have closed it but, I am sure that the decision was taken after much thought and prayer.
With much love,
Natalia
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cathhomeschool
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You ladies have done a good job of explaining "why" moderate and how much work goes on behind the scenes. How many hours a week does it take a moderator? Well, it depends on which boards she is moderating and on how many other boards she's helping "cover" at the time. Some weeks, it may not take any longer than an average reader takes. Some days (when there is a heated discussion in a board that "you" moderate and there are also other discussions going on in that board or on others you moderate), moderating dominates the day.
The Waldorf thread: Part of the reason that I am SO glad that Mary locked that thread is that the two main moderators on that board were off-line -- I had a son going prepping for surgery (He had it yesterday and is still needy. I have hours of reading to "catch-up" on without the Waldorf thread.) and Elizabeth has a houseful of birthdays. We were busy with our lives at home, doing things that could not be postponed until later. At the same time, we are short-handed and several other moderators who could normally help cover the Waldorf topic were also offline. When we do not have enough help to read a sensitive/heated topic and that topic has already been discussed from every angle, it is time to lock. For those that feel that the spiritual aspects of Waldorf needed further discussion, you can search the archives for the old thread that expands a bit on those aspects. If that is still not enough, then Lissa is hosting a discussion. Lissa, I am sorry that you felt that you "had" to do this, but am glad that you are able to make time for it. If Lissa ends up without time, then there is a vast internet out there that each member who feels that they must know more can google.
(FYI -- in case it isn't very apparent from this post, I tend to be one of the less senstive moderators!  )
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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cathhomeschool
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WJFR wrote:
| Oops, I cross-posted with you, Elizabeth. |
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And I cross-posted with both of you and Angie and Natalia.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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Willa
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| Posted: Sept 29 2007 at 10:57am | IP Logged
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cathhomeschool wrote:
| (FYI -- in case it isn't very apparent from this post, I tend to be one of the less senstive moderators! ) |
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I am in that camp, too. I like a bit of discussion. Maybe because I grew up with all brothers and am raising a bunch of boys?? It takes me a long time to realize that something has the potential to cause hurt. Then sometimes it's too late. I'm glad there are enough moderators that we share the judgment calls. I don't think any one person could do this job.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Why are threads closed? (
Topic Closed)
