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Elizabeth
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Cay has a post on the fairy tales ideas here. Great links! Don't miss them.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Mary G
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Elizabeth wrote:
Books,
The blueberry book is darling and would definitely work with Sal. But, Peter also visits Mrs. Cranberry, so it works for a fall book too. Did I mention it's darling? I love, love, love the Elsa Beskow books. And since they are translations, I'm really astonished at how beautifully written they are. The language is not stilted at all.
I think she draws like Alice Cantrell. And I love Alice's drawings.
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I too love the Beskow books -- and Maggie (my 7yod) has a nice collection she's gotten from St. Nick/Santa over the last few years. I've always foudn them just beautiful!
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Kristie 4
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I will start out by confessing that I didn't read the last rush of posts, but was keeping up with this in the beginning.
I was very interested in Waldorf when I was first starting out as a parent. I lived on a commune in a very new agey community and there was a local Waldorf school.
Reading through this thread I saw again, as I think Elizabeth did too, how in the beginning of my journey I emphasized watercolors, beauty and rhythm etc. with the kids I had then.
I got quite excited and talked to dh. He looked at me squarely and said that art, rhthym, and appreciation of nature etc. are not Waldorf. Yes, of course I told him. He also feels stongly that you can't have Waldorf without the Anthophosophy (sp??). He was deeply imbedded in the whole 'new age' (I will call it that for lack of a better word) movement for years, a very deep thinker and reader. He rarely ever makes a 'stand' like this on different approaches to learning etc. But I think with his knowledge of Steiner he wanted to keep a distance from it.
I know, this sounds like heresy after all these wonderful posts, from women of such faith. But I know for me, my husbands wisdom is a comfort (I am such a stubborn women, I VERY often don't bother to ask for it!). So I think I will leave my most recent 'foray' into the world of Waldorf and just endevor to find more time for our handcrafts, and try to live a daily rhthym and life of faith and beauty....
Just the thoughts of this mom's sort of cloudy brain this morning....
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Bookswithtea
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Kristie 4 wrote:
I got quite excited and talked to dh. He looked at me squarely and said that art, rhthym, and appreciation of nature etc. are not Waldorf. Yes, of course I told him. He also feels stongly that you can't have Waldorf without the Anthophosophy (sp??). He was deeply imbedded in the whole 'new age' (I will call it that for lack of a better word) movement for years, a very deep thinker and reader. He rarely ever makes a 'stand' like this on different approaches to learning etc. But I think with his knowledge of Steiner he wanted to keep a distance from it. |
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I would love it if you or even your dh were willing to maybe start a different thread on some of the things to watch out for in Waldorf, so that we can all be fully informed? Forewarned is forearmed, so to speak.
I suspect that if there were lots of other wonderful resources out there for these kinds of crafts, focus on gentleness with the child, seasonal meanderings etc that it would be easier to find alternate information. But I think these kinds of activities and ideas are very countercultural for America, and even for the hs movement. For better or worse, Americans are stuck with a Puritan heritage that is frankly very stiff. 
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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Elizabeth wrote:
Books,
The blueberry book is darling and would definitely work with Sal. But, Peter also visits Mrs. Cranberry, so it works for a fall book too. Did I mention it's darling? I love, love, love the Elsa Beskow books. And since they are translations, I'm really astonished at how beautifully written they are. The language is not stilted at all.
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Oh, now I am really excited, since I can butt my unit up against my Cranberry Thanksgiving one, also in the works! 
I'll check out the links on fairy tales, too. Thank you!
Sigh...I am sure I will be spending money this afternoon on books! What an addiction...and lately, its children's books that I can't stop drooling over...
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Bookswithtea
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Oh! And speaking of children's books, I want to buy one book on fairies that is not too weird, but has lots of gorgeous pictures. I already have a fairy tale book I love...
Anyone???
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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kjohnson
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Our favorite by far is The Complete Book of Flower Fairies. It's absolutely beautiful and lovely in a Beatrix Potter kind of way.
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Katherine
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kjohnson
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Oh, and Elizabeth's post on Flower Fairies links to great resources, ideas and sites related to this book.
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Katherine
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Elizabeth
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I completely agree with Katherine. That book has really drawn the kids in.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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~Rachel~
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Katherine took the words RIGHT out of my mouth 
Make sure that you get the original ones by Cicely Mary Barker and not the newfangled things that pop up whenever you search for 'flower fairies' 
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hereinantwerp
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Elizabeth wrote:
Bookswithtea wrote:
| Where can I learn more about the Christian sub-themes in Fairy Tales? I have some information on Anderson's, but I have never heard the things you mentioned about Snow White, Elizabeth. I was planning on reading Snow White this week as a go along to our Apple Unit, and would love to include this. |
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I'm giggling here. I'm working on writing a fairy tale unit for bigger kids. I talked to Regina Doman yesterday afternoon. She pointed all that out to me. Regina has authored three modern day fairy tales for teenagers. She points out that any story that continues to be told thousands of years later is one that we should note. We got cut off yesterday (I had to get out the door to the doctor) but I'm hoping to talk with her more about these very things. In the meantime, I'm cobbling together a unit so that my older ones can get from fairy tales something altogether different than my youngers, but we can all be on the same page, so to speak. |
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It seems like Tolkein and C. S. Lewis have written some about this (can't give references b/c it's been years since I read whatever I read that inspired me!)--the value of fairy tales, etc. They certainly had opinions about fairy tales.
Lewis's book "Till We Have Faces" is an "adult level" fairy tale if I ever met one. So are the Narnia and LOTR books, for that matter. GEORGE MACDONALD is wonderful--I read his fairytales and his "Curdie" books as a college student, and got so much out of them! Lilith and Phantastes get a bit surreal and hard to understand though. Rosemary Sutcliffe has done some excellent treatments of the King Arthur stories for youth (though at least one is more for ADULTS). Related might be a study of epics (such as beowulf or the iliad) or myths. A few years back we went through a curriculum based around LOTR (Literary Lessons Through LOTR) and it had a really neat unit study of epics. That was an excellent, excellent literature curriculum, BTW! Though I tried to use it a bit too young, it would be great for high school. Whew, well that was launching off . . . can you tell I love this stuff  !
I have found that as an adult I have really enjoyed classic fairy tales. The "color" books (blue fairy book, etc.) by Andrew Lang have good, much longer, classic versions. There are just so many allegories and paralells to life, many I've just seen and come up with on my own after reading. You could probably do the same by just reading them aloud and talking about them afterward with your older kids.
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Bookswithtea
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hereinantwerp wrote:
| I have found that as an adult I have really enjoyed classic fairy tales. The "color" books (blue fairy book, etc.) by Andrew Lang have good, much longer, classic versions. |
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Aren't those recommended in Mater Amabilis? Can you tell me more about them?
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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KathrynTherese
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I'm jumping in here very late, and this comment is unnecessary. But I want to comment anyway 
Every objection to Waldorf-as-is has been answered beautifully here already, so I am only putting an exclamation point on all the fine discussion. And it's only because I feel compelled to say that the "attractiveness" of anything "Waldorfian" is its naturalness. The part that we are interested in is not the underlying worldview, but the beautiful way it expresses the need to attend to what is good, beautiful, and true, with an eye always on naturalness. In our culture, this is often a lost art that we are forced to rediscover.
The natural rhythms of the day and the year, the natural progression of a child's growth, the natural attachments people have to one another. It's warm. It's true.
And lighting that warm truth even further with our own understanding of family - natural and spiritual, earthly and heavenly - makes the whole thing glow and draws us in.
We see what the true Waldorfians fail to see - that God is in those natural things, natural rhythms, natural attractions. They were God's idea.
When we give Him credit, and let grace have its way in the whole thing, we have something different than Waldorf, even though our contact with Waldorf sparked it. Christ makes all things new, even this!
So, we sometimes refer to ourselves as "CCMers" because we are not purely CM. We are all so eclectic that no one of our homeschools would fit any category at all, I think. We glean ideas from everywhere and see what works within our families and try to keep our heads above water.
This week, Waldorf has been our gleaning field. It's a beautiful thing, used right.
There's my .02 for the year, as I rarely post!
But I do enjoy the discussion.
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LisaR
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KathrynTherese wrote:
When we give Him credit, and let grace have its way in the whole thing, we have something different than Waldorf, even though our contact with Waldorf sparked it. Christ makes all things new, even this!
So, we sometimes refer to ourselves as "CCMers" because we are not purely CM. We are all so eclectic that no one of our homeschools would fit any category at all, I think. We glean ideas from everywhere and see what works within our families and try to keep our heads above water.
This week, Waldorf has been our gleaning field. It's a beautiful thing, used right.
There's my .02 for the year, as I rarely post!
But I do enjoy the discussion. |
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AMEN!!!  off to find our "color" Lang fairy books...
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Mary G
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hereinantwerp wrote:
It seems like Tolkein and C. S. Lewis have written some about this (can't give references b/c it's been years since I read whatever I read that inspired me!)--the value of fairy tales, etc. They certainly had opinions about fairy tales.
Lewis's book "Till We Have Faces" is an "adult level" fairy tale if I ever met one. So are the Narnia and LOTR books, for that matter. GEORGE MACDONALD is wonderful--I read his fairytales and his "Curdie" books as a college student, and got so much out of them! Lilith and Phantastes get a bit surreal and hard to understand though. Rosemary Sutcliffe has done some excellent treatments of the King Arthur stories for youth (though at least one is more for ADULTS). Related might be a study of epics (such as beowulf or the iliad) or myths. A few years back we went through a curriculum based around LOTR (Literary Lessons Through LOTR) and it had a really neat unit study of epics. That was an excellent, excellent literature curriculum, BTW! Though I tried to use it a bit too young, it would be great for high school. Whew, well that was launching off . . . can you tell I love this stuff !
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I just posted this on the fairy tales for older kids post that Cay's post but thought y'all would be interested in the links too.
Mary G. wrote:
Fairy tales as a story-telling tradition have a plethora of proponents ... many of whom are good orthodox Catholics. Tolkein wrote/spoke extensively on fairy tales -- here's an article from from the EWTN site that gives an overview. And here's the full text of an essay he wrote called "On Fairy Stories". |
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MaryG
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Kristie 4
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Kathryn T, you said it far more clearly than I did. That is what I, in my scientific mind , was trying to relate. Beautiful!
Books, I will talk to hubbie more, but I think what he was getting at is that if a movement is birthed out of a philosophy, how can you keep the movement without the philosophy....
I second the flower fairies books. Also, Books, you could look at the Baldwin Project to take a peek at some of the Andrew Lang 'colour' fairy books. My son, 12, LOOOOVED them! My daughter, 10, found them a wee bit gruesome at times!
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Kristie in Canada
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Elizabeth
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Jane Ramsey wrote:
Don't tell me that pagans know more about those things than Christians do, or they do it better. I'm just not buying it.
I still do not understand the desire to promote a curriculum based on a pagan philosophy. I do not consider any of it worth risking people's souls.
God bless,
Jane |
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I think it is worth noting that Rudolf Steiner was not a pagan. He was not Catholic either. He was a philosopher and his educational theory is rooted in his philosophy not in any theology.Waldorf schools are not religious schools.We are not going to discuss his spirituality on this board because it beyond the scope and purpose of the board. None of us is looking for a new faith system or for spiritual guidance from Steiner.
Donna Simmons is a professed Christian. In all my correspondence with her and all my reading of her materials, I have found her to be nothing but gracious and warm towards Catholics. Please remember that the boards are public. Labeling people with pejorative terms is not what we do. Catholics believe that we are all created in the image of Christ and I hope that we can all be as gracious and kind towards one another as Donna has been.
From everything I've read (and I've read a whole lot), there is nothing in the Oak Meadow materials that is even remotely pagan. Nor do I think that the folks at Oak Meadow are pagan.
This thread is becoming so long and diverse that I encourage those of you who want to continue to discuss particular aspects of Waldorf education to start new threads so that we can easily follow the train of thought.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Bookswithtea
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Kristie 4 wrote:
Books, I will talk to hubbie more, but I think what he was getting at is that if a movement is birthed out of a philosophy, how can you keep the movement without the philosophy.... |
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That's ok. I am not looking so much for that as a "what to watch out for if you decide to read" thing.
Kristie 4 wrote:
| I second the flower fairies books. Also, Books, you could look at the Baldwin Project to take a peek at some of the Andrew Lang 'colour' fairy books. My son, 12, LOOOOVED them! My daughter, 10, found them a wee bit gruesome at times! |
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OK, so does the gore *need* to be there for the stories to work, or is it just there for effect? This is the same question I ask dh, btw, when he brings home guy flicks!
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mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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Willa
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I think Rudolf Steiner was probably some sort of neo-pagan. They do exist and Waldorf certainly has a substantial neo-pagan following. He wrote some weird stuff, seriously weird. The Christian language and symbols don't take away from the strangeness of his philosophy.
It's probably a very good idea to be careful and vigilant when delving into this stuff.
On the other hand, the discussion on this forum has been focused on things compatible with Catholic sensibilites -- long blocks for lessons, liturgical and seasonal awareness, the therapeutic importance of art and music and other creative expression. That is what I have been taking away from the discussion.
I have appreciated not having to actually read Waldorf materials or buy anything (I checked some books out of the library and found them very off-putting).
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Willa
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Willa
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I wanted to add: I doubt if Rudolf Steiner called himself a neo-pagan, so perhaps it's taking too much upon myself to use that word. There's no real hard and fast definition for paganism anyway. I doubt if he worshipped the Greek gods or was a wiccan or anything like that.
In the sense that his philosophy mingled with religious symbolism drawn from all over the place, I am thinking that his worldview had elements in common with the Greek and Roman religions, where different elements from different religions were assimilated rather indiscriminately because of their drama or appeal. That is what I meant by neo-pagan.
I am not trying to use pejorative terminology (sorry, Elizabeth) just to make distinctions. A lot of Protestant Christians (I used to be one) think that Catholicism is neo-paganism and syncresis of Christianity with Greek and Roman elements. It is not, of course. But I just wanted to make it certain that we don't get lumped in the same camp as true syncretists, since we represent the face of Catholic homeschooling for a lot of people.
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