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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Sept 25 2007 at 6:39am | IP Logged
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hereinantwerp wrote:
Is Waldorf therapeutic for moms, do you think?  Slowing down, honoring seasonal rhythms, doing handcrafts (which I enjoy and always wish I had time for!), etc. sounds just wonderful. But the last thing on earth I need is to get excited about one more "system", try to impose it on everyone, and have it not work! However, the other "systems" have been designed around my oldest, and now I am realizing I need to focus on the younger one, that he really does need a completely different style. Another thing is I get very frustrated trying to do crafts & projects with a 2 year old around. (She hasn't napped in months, and goes to bed fairly late, so there's no opportunity when she isn't around!) I just don't find handcrafts relaxing in these circumstances--in another year maybe--! |
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In a word, yes, it's therapeutic for mom. And I have a one-year-old around which to do crafts. We crafted quite a bit yesterday, it was utterly chaotic at times and my house looked like a stuff bomb went off. But then the rhythm kicked in, we restored order and I went to bed feeling satisfied.
Don't impose the system. Just start living it. No grand pronouncements, just ease in . You will eventually find yourselves falling into those wonderful tracks of habit that Charlotte mason so loved.
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| I am also concerned because I feel my kids are way too dependant on media (we DO limit computer time & movies more strictly than most families I know, it just feels like such a constant conflict, and I sense some emotional dependancy on these things in them), Waldorf has my entire sympathy with the idea of just completely nixing that stuff, but I feel like the fallout would be quite terrible. And once they get older, and certain activities feel very important from their point of view, should you just come in and "nix it" like that? And I also confess I use these things for a "break", when dh is gone many nights, or the 2 year old does not nap, it gives me a little space--but at a cost. Bleh. |
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My dh is a television producer. That said, we limit TV to pretty much only what he produces. He's gone so much and I do empathize. But, in the end, TV comes back to bite you. Set up a watching schedule of preselected shows chosen for their merit.Then, when you are tempted to use it as a babysitter, don't. Don't turn it on. It adds to the noise and confusion and it creates children who don't do two-way communication very well. So yes, nix it. Force them to think of something else to do.
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One thing about the Christophari stuff in particular that appeals to me is just the basic help with--uhhh--parenting. I am not naturally a very "nurturing" person, am trying to learn to be more so, especially with my 3rd child now. Today I was looking at one of her books for earlier childhood on movement and fingerplays, and the sample just intrigued me, that here, maybe, was something that could help me in practical ways to be more the kind of parent I WANT to be. I also listened to the free audio sample about therapeutic waldorf, and I just loved some of the things she had to say about children in general. It's my heart to live and do these things but somehow, the "natural knack" for it is lacking  , but in God's grace I am hoping to learn and do better. have to save my pennies for those christophari books . . . ! I would love to hear more comments on specific ones that are most helpful . . . |
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I rarely recommend parenting books because they rarely resonate with me. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend these as long as the person reading them was firmly rooted in the faith and could read around the stuff that doesn't mesh. They are really, really good parenting book, imo. It's attachment parenting and firm limits--a rare combination.
Now, I must go feed a child who is quite certain he will starve if I read one more post 
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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SusanJ
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Elizabeth,
Have you thought about starting a separate Waldorf forum on the board? I just clicked through and opened all the tabs the topics that interested me--most of which were about Waldorf and I think I have about nine open, here.
Just wondering . . .
Susan
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CKwasniewski
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Elizabeth,
Can you say something about how these Waldorf-inspired materials can help a mom be more fulfilled in/with/by her homeschooling?
I noticed you gave a quote about this on your blog. I've read this thread, and extensively on Donna Simmons website... and that is something I am left wondering about.
It's been on my mind a lot lately...
thanks,
ck
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Cici
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| Posted: Sept 25 2007 at 2:38pm | IP Logged
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Rebecca - thank you so much.
I can see now that that circle time needn't be something dramatic and large that I "implement". In fact, this morning, after breakfast we gathered and did a few songs. DD LOVED LOVED LOVED IT!
We'll definitely be working this into our day. I think we had already started "block" times. She enjoys taking her time and "bonding" with everything. So, that's what we'll do.
Thanks again!
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Rebecca
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| Posted: Sept 25 2007 at 2:56pm | IP Logged
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Genevieve wrote:
| You have actions with Kookaburra? Could you describe them? We love the song around here! |
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No movements with Kookaburra or Mares Eat Oats. (Though, my 4dd likes to act like a monkey for the last verse of Kookaburra). The rest of the songs have movements.
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EmilyC
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I've been devouring this thread the past few days...I'm so inspired! I had never really heard of Waldorf before now, I had a vague notion that it was some cultish hippie type school. I'm getting so excited about this new adventure! It's seriously exactly what I've been needing. When I evaluated how things were going, I wasn't happy. I was having trouble figuring out how to fit my twins into school, how to keep learning enjoyable, how to fit in some sort of art (aside from stacks and stacks of pictures the boys do every day) and how to cut out the excessive amount of media (tv, video games and scads of plastic toys included) we have been allowing.
I think I've been a passive parent for a very long while. I participate only when necessary, and that makes me sad. Since Sunday, I've been making an effort to be with my children througout the day, and participate with them. I watercolor painted with them, I've been playing outside with them, I even (gasp) let dd vacuum with me. My children are so much happier! I've had less fighting between them, and things just seem happier.
We spent the entire morning making math gnomes, and had so much fun. It was the best morning of school we've probably ever had. Everyone participated, and it was just fun.
I just want to thank everyone who shared about waldorf on this thread. You have no idea how much it's helped me.
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Sarah (13) Robbie & Riley (10) Regina (nearly 3)
My secular lit-based curriculum:
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Jane Ramsey
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| Posted: Sept 25 2007 at 6:13pm | IP Logged
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I have been very hesitant to post on this topic, but I feel I must. I have been waiting for someone else to be a voice of dissent, but since that is not happening, I’m going to go ahead and jump in.
First of all, let me say that I do not want to offend anyone, least of all Elizabeth, Katherine, or Rebecca, all of whom I have great respect and admiration for, and view as mentors in my home education journey.
BUT, I AM having difficulty with this whole Waldorf thing. I certainly understand the concept of extracting the good out of whatever you come across, but to me this is going too far. Do we teach our children good things extracted out of Buddhism or Hinduism? Why neo-paganism? Every time I read something about Waldorf I come across something that is contrary to our Faith. I once picked up the Child’s Seasonal Treasury at a used book sale, not knowing it was a Waldorf thing (or knowing anything about Waldorf). After reading a few pages, the Neo-paganism in it just about made me sick. I threw it in the garbage. Now I see it being promoted on this forum and it bothers me.
My main question to those of you who are getting involved in Waldorf is :why? To add art to your curriculum? That can be done without Waldorf, can’t it? Is it to find rhythm in your daily life? Following the rhythm of the seasons and the Liturgical year can also be done without Waldorf, can’t it?
I find this all so sad, because we have such a treasury in the CM method, the Montessori method, the Classical method—not to mention Church teachings-- from which to draw. Why search for the “good” in a non-Christian method/religion? If you happen to find good in it, by all means use it, but don’t go then and promote that method/religion to others (who MAY not be as knowledgeable as you—and not as able to pick out the bad parts!)
Once I overheard a conversation between my sil and a friend. The friend stated that she used a certain curriculum. My sil replied she had heard that some of it was anti-Catholic. The friend said, yes, but we just skipped over those parts. I’ll never forget my sil’s response: “But why should I give my money to a company that promotes anti-Catholicism? So they can produce more anti-Catholic books?” This explains how I feel about Waldorf and about it being promoted on this forum. Every time you spend money on a Waldorf site, you are helping to promote their religion—like it or not.
Another thing that bothers me is the name “Christopherus”. That is very deceiving. The name and the image of St. Christopher would make one think this is a Christian curriculum. It is not. Is that made clear to those who are thinking of purchasing and using it? It doesn’t seem so to me.
OK, I’m done. I fear the backlash this may cause, but I had to speak my mind. I do not condemn anyone for finding and using the “good” in this method, but I am dismayed at the level of promotion it is receiving on this (Catholic) forum.
God bless,
Jane
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Sept 25 2007 at 6:28pm | IP Logged
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I think if you take a look at what exactly is being promoted you will find that none of us is doing anything contrary to the faith.And no one would want to do anything contrary to the faith. And infusion of new ideas is good for personal development. If we are secure in our knowledge of truth we can see the good.I've read lots of parenting advice in Catholic books with which I've disagreed heartily. I didn't throw the book down in disgust. I just didn't take the advice. I went to a a public university where I studied early childhood education. Nothing was presented through a Catholic lens. And my most blatantly new age teaching experience was undoubtedly at a Montessori school. Charlotte Mason wasn't Catholic; the folks at Memoria Press are not Catholic. There is a rich treasury of ideas out there and I don't think we need to be afraid of people who are outside the Church, particularly if we know the faith well. I had someone on the Christopherus board ask me today to tell her a little more about what it's like to educate a big, Catholic family. I touched on some of the beautiful parts of a Catholic education and I directed her to my blog. There, she'll see Michaelmas celebrated the Catholic way. She'll understand the feasts of the Church as something more than just arbitrary days to celebrate. She'll see how we can watercolor the Waldorf way and illustrate the psalms. She'll see how the rhythm of the day follows the liturgy of the hours and the rhythm of the year is the liturgical year.She'll see how May Day is just the beginning of a monthlong celebration of Mary. She'll see how the fairy tale favorite of Waldorf schools--Snow White and the Seven Dwarves--is a very Christian tale of purity, evil, the seven sacraments or the seven virtues, and the prince who is the only one who can deliver the princess from her the spell of evil, Christ. It might just be the first time she's seen components of a Waldorf education in a Catholic place, a place where they truly belong.Why can't we Catholics stake a claim on things are really are good, and true and beautiful and can rightfully be a part of our educational plan?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Jane Ramsey
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Elizabeth, as I said, I don't condemn anyone for using the methods found in Waldorf. And I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything contrary to the faith.
You said "IF we are secure in our knowledge of the truth we can see the good." Yes, I agree. But you KNOW that you are secure in your knowledge. You don't KNOW that everyone on this forum is. What if, just maybe, some people travel over to those Waldorf sites b/c you recommended them, they buy the curriculum, and they are taken in by it, and they start to drift away from the truth? It is possible... Is it worth it? To get more art into a curriculum? To have circle time and more stories, nature tables? Couldn't you promote all these things WITHOUT promoting Waldorf?
What I'm saying is that "using" the good that you find and "promoting" a whole system of education that has elements contrary to the faith are two different things. Many people here look up to you as an example. They may not understand what Waldorf is based on. They may think, Oh, Elizabeth uses it so it must be OK.
I'm not saying that people here are dunces who just follow someone else's lead, but I'm sure there are many people who are new to the faith or less knowledgeable than you are. I just want you to think about what direction you are leading them. You are in a position of leadership, whether you realize it or not, and you are not going to be there to read over someone's shoulder when she's reading that Waldorf book to tell her, "Oh, that's not good...skip over that part!"
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: Sept 25 2007 at 7:07pm | IP Logged
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Jane Ramsey wrote:
Elizabeth, as I said, I don't condemn anyone for using the methods found in Waldorf. And I'm not accusing anyone of doing anything contrary to the faith.
You said "IF we are secure in our knowledge of the truth we can see the good." Yes, I agree. But you KNOW that you are secure in your knowledge. You don't KNOW that everyone on this forum is. What if, just maybe, some people travel over to those Waldorf sites b/c you recommended them, they buy the curriculum, and they are taken in by it, and they start to drift away from the truth? It is possible... Is it worth it? To get more art into a curriculum? To have circle time and more stories, nature tables? Couldn't you promote all these things WITHOUT promoting Waldorf?
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Jane, I see what you're saying and honestly, it scares me. If I have to watch everything I say and everything I recommend with the idea that someone might not understand a book or a resource the way I do, or might stumble onto something bad on a website, then I need to stop posting at all. I send people to amazon all the time. And sometimes Amazon suggests books to go with books I'm recommending. And I wouldn't suggest what Amazon is suggesting.
There are Waldorf resources out there that I haven't mentioned. But people have found them independent of me. Frankly, I wouldn't use them. But I can't possibly list everything I would or wouldn't use. And I can't do that for anything.
There are Catholic resources I never, ever recommend and they are in the same catalogs as some of my favorite resources. I'd hate for people to read them and think that that's the only Catholic way to do something. But I don't think I can be held responsible for everyone's personal research trail. I've been very forthright about what I've taken from Waldorf. And I've also been very forthright about the fact that it is NOT Catholic. The people who read these boards are mature, discerning adults. I give them credit for being able to hear about "old souls" in an audio download and know immediately that Catholics don't believe in olds souls because we believe the soul is created at conception.
What I think we need to look at is WHAT we are promoting: crafts using natural fibers; crafts with usefulness and meaning; stories woven throughout the curriculum; main lesson books (it's narration with art); rhythm (those monastery bells again); songs sung by mom throughout the day; imagination; an awareness of the season and the created world; a slower pace and more purposeful approach to our days and our years; an awareness of the needs of our youngest children. It's all good. I can't imagine anyone wanting to keep Catholics from it. And I'd hate to let fear stop me from sharing resources that have inspired me. Seems like fear is never from God. There are a lot of good, Waldorf inspired, beautiful things happening in some of our homes. There are some happy moms and happy children excited about the coming year. I think the Evil One would like nothing better than to have us all go home and huddle in fear instead of sharing the resources that inspired us.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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LisaR
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to be honest, I have spoken with lots of Catholic homeschool moms about Waldorf over the years, IRL and online. There always is a bit of caution there, and lots of taking out the basic ideas and incorporating them in a Catholic home environment. Where I have found gray area recently is within Montessori and CGS circles, and the heresy that is taught and yet it is under the auspices of being "Catholic" and therefore ok.
Basically, we all need to be careful of what we bring into our homes. Am I cautious about where my money goes? yes, to a point. The US Headquarters for Cat. of the Good Shepherd recently was advertising how they erected the first Buddhist Atrium. Many have ordered homeschool books from scismatic Catholic sources, and have been mightily deceived.
Waldorf makes no claim to be Catholic. I know all the moms on this list would be aware of that when looking at any website or book suggestions.
Peaceful Homeschooling! Off to organize some artwork for tomorrow.....
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
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many little saints in heaven!
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insegnante
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LisaR wrote:
| Where I have found gray area recently is within Montessori and CGS circles, and the heresy that is taught and yet it is under the auspices of being "Catholic" and therefore ok. |
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Yikes. I presume you're talking about problems with some individual programs and nothing intrinsic to Montessori or CGS?
Theresa
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LisaR
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insegnante wrote:
LisaR wrote:
| Where I have found gray area recently is within Montessori and CGS circles, and the heresy that is taught and yet it is under the auspices of being "Catholic" and therefore ok. |
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Yikes. I presume you're talking about problems with some individual programs and nothing intrinsic to Montessori or CGS?
Theresa |
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I'd rather not go into it here. Yes, it could be thought of as coming from individual programs . (but I have heard from about 8 different programs/different areas of the country on this).
I'd check out the main website, too for the National Centre. Some wonderful things, and some not so wonderful.
I do not want to bash CGS, Montessori, or any method, except to point out that we need to have a discerning spirit with anything.
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Lisa
dh Tim '92
Joseph 17
Paul 14
Thomas 11
Dominic 8
Maria Gianna 5
Isaac Vincent 9/21/10! and...
many little saints in heaven!
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hereinantwerp
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| Posted: Sept 25 2007 at 7:49pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
hereinantwerp wrote:
Is Waldorf therapeutic for moms, do you think? . . . |
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In a word, yes, it's therapeutic for mom. And I have a one-year-old around which to do crafts. We crafted quite a bit yesterday, it was utterly chaotic at times and my house looked like a stuff bomb went off. But then the rhythm kicked in, we restored order and I went to bed feeling satisfied.
Don't impose the system. Just start living it. No grand pronouncements, just ease in . You will eventually find yourselves falling into those wonderful tracks of habit that Charlotte mason so loved. |
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***My plan so far has been to ease off everything (for child #2) except for his reading practice and casual read-aloud with library books--and then ease back into something. I think maybe we'll try first just the Main Lesson time--but I want to look more at the "hows". But it will definately be a different feel than the CM/switching subjects every 20 minutes type of feel, hopefully very refreshing and peaceful . . .
I have a hard time relaxing with crafts out and lots of noise and chaos and the baby into everything. I know--that's parenting (!!), it's definately my problem, not the kids' . . . I'm trying to work on it
Elizabeth wrote:
hereinantwerp wrote:
| I am also concerned because I feel my kids are way too dependant on media . . . |
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Set up a watching schedule of preselected shows chosen for their merit.Then, when you are tempted to use it as a babysitter, don't. Don't turn it on. It adds to the noise and confusion and it creates children who don't do two-way communication very well. So yes, nix it. Force them to think of something else to do. |
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***I like that idea of preselecting shows. Actually our tv functions more as a video monitor! So maybe pre-selected times, but I don't want them to expect it every day, either (expect that's my little break . . .!). I feel like we've been on a binge lately---aftereffects of a big move, and going to American libraries for the first time in 5 years, so many videos to check out and see. But maybe we're reaching a "saturation point" and it's time to draw back again! While overseas our tv broke and we had nothing for 6 months, our kids were so creative during that time. Honestly I wouldn't mind just getting rid of it, but dh is a big movie fan.
Elizabeth wrote:
hereinantwerp wrote:
| One thing about the Christophari stuff in particular that appeals to me is just the basic help with parenting. I am not naturally a very "nurturing" person, am trying to learn to be more so, especially with my 3rd child now. |
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I rarely recommend parenting books because they rarely resonate with me. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend these as long as the person reading them was firmly rooted in the faith and could read around the stuff that doesn't mesh. They are really, really good parenting book, imo. It's attachment parenting and firm limits--a rare combination. |
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***Thank you for the good word. I've struggled with parenting books, usually found them less than encouraging (as one who struggles with stuff and has much to learn), but from the small online samples these seem like they could be really helpful to me, practical but not weighed with guilt. I understand some of the attachment parenting ideas but it is not, not, not coming naturally with me, though with this 3rd baby (and my olders) I am sincerely trying !
***As far as being "firmly rooted in the faith", an idea re. Waldorf which is suddenly in discussion---I have found in another area of my life in which I have needed much help, the most helpful resources have not, unfortunately, been the ones written by those sharing my faith. The most helpful things have been from people who have put in the time and research re. the issue I am struggling with, and yes, I have to take the stuff and then integrate it with my faith, through prayer and the scripture and talking things over with my dh and a very close, wise spiritual friend and,in the end, sorting through what I believe. It is a lot of work! It is unfortuanate that the books and counselors I saw within my own faith were so unhelpful at times. Now, I am getting real help and it feels like a miracle--but I had to get it outside the church . And that makes me a bit sad, as people certainly come to churches looking for this kind of help!!! Perhaps it is like artistic talent or great writing--God does not distribute these gifts only within the church, and if you closed yourself off to input from the outside world you would miss much. There are also people who have studied psychology, and children, and education, who have treasures of insight to offer, but the insights must be processed in the light of our faith, and there ARE differences at the very core--discernment is important. Discussion like this, being able to process with others, is wonderful!
It seems like the Waldorf people have closely studied real children. (CM was like that too, which is why her books and insights are so helpful, to whatever extent one wants to apply them!) The ideas for celebrating the seasonal year within a "school" structure, as far as I can tell, are unique, (and very inspiring to a modern person like me who grew up with NO traditions whatsoever!), and also the emphasis on beauty and art, and the idea of education THROUGH the arts--I haven't seen anything like it anywhere else. For my artistically oriented middle child, I am hoping this can give me some real help into finding a way how he can learn. The materials are so beautiful and inspiring. Our modern world is so "technological", maybe the upsurge of interest in Waldorf, with their emphasis on natural materials is a reaction to that, just something people are already craving and they would like help to know "how" to reconnect with the natural world in ways, and Waldorf people have thought much about this. Maybe part of Waldorf's emphasis on "beauty" also comes from a European culture that is foreign to us "practical" Americans, as beauty is defiantely more of a value over there, and what we call "Waldorf" toys here would not be seen as specifically Waldorf toys over there, but just regular toys, though on the "high end" of the market (they have their junky bright plastic noisemakers and playstation systems, too, they just tend to own a lot less of everything, and they are in general more likely to go for quality vs. quantity than we are--like one nice christmas present verses 8 cheaper ones).
Well, just some scattered thoughts to add to the pot!
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Philothea
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I, too, have been reading this thread with interest and sitting on my hands to keep from posting. I have concerns about the Waldorf style, too, based both on its origins and its practice.
That said, it seems to me that when you take the whole reasoning behind Waldorf (i.e. anthroposophy) and throw it out, then take out some of the key practices (gnomes, new age/nature prayers, restricting reading in the early years etc.) and throw them out, too, what you have is not really Waldorf at all. It seems to me that what is being discussed here is a few of the ideas found within the Waldorf/Steiner movement, namely art appreciation, seasonal emphasis, and in-depth/block study.
I don't think that studying in blocks, having a heavy artistic focus and using all-natural materials makes one a Waldorf homeschooler. Waldorf is a whole philosophy, a whole way of doing things that permeates every part of the day. Fairies and gnomes are part of it. Anthroposophy is part of it. The idea that children are "incarnating" and that we must be extraordinarily gentle, almost reverent, with them at all times is part of it, which translates to quiet voices, no black, certain colors for walls, certian methods for art, etc. If you are picking and choosing and editing these things, then it is not a Waldorf education.
There isn't anything wrong with picking and choosing the best ideas out of Waldorf education and adapting them for your family as you ladies have done. IMO, a true Waldorf education is totally incompatible with Catholicism, so you HAVE to pick and choose. But calling it 'Waldorf' is ... I don't know, misleading?
I believe there is validity to the idea that there are a lot of less experienced women (such as myself) lurking here who look up to you veterans and seek your "stamp of approval" on various curriculi. And the fawning over Waldorf being done here recently, when in reality none of you are really using a true Waldorf curriculum, could very well lead some of us newbies astray. (I hate to put that kind of responsibility on you all, but it is a reality.)
I know I have done a ton more research on Waldorf (I had read up on it and rejected it for myself years ago, but felt that if you ladies had found something valuable in it, that I must have been rash in doing so) because of the threads here, and I have once more come to the conclusion that it is not for my family. But I could have just as easily gone the other way, if I were a craft-lover or found fairy tales particularly appealing. There are elements that I do appreciate and may at some point incorporate into our learning. But they are so few that I would not bother to call our learning "Waldorf-inspired" or anything like that. I feel like to endorse Waldorf in a general sense would be to endorse its roots and philosophy, and I don't endorse those things at all. So I bristle a bit when I see all of you wonderful Catholic women whom I look up to so much endorsing it without heavy and obvious disclaimers.
I hope I haven't offended anyone here. I just wanted to offer some support for the idea that we should all remember this isn't a closed forum and there are many more people being influenced by what is said here than any of us really know.
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missionfamily
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I keep popping in on this discussion and have been trying to come to terms with what I feel about this whole Waldorf thing. As I said before a lot of it totally turns me off, but I felt there was some wisdom to be gleaned from the conversations here. I had a long reflection on it this weekend and really had to ask myself if I was running around trying to do all this because I wanted to be in on the fun chats taking place or because I really desired to give my family something refreshing and unique that would benefit our relationships and our holiness.
My biggest difficulty in articulating it was that when I put to words what I was taking away, it wasn't really anything to do with Waldorf, and didn't seem to fit the discussion. Then for the past two days I have been listening to Mrs. Sharp's Traditions on audio and have found a peace in my soul in that the things I was feeling drawn to are reiterated in her explanation of the beauty of Victorian domestic bliss.
The focus on rhythm, beauty, art, and the wonder of childhood that God has opened my eyes to through these discussions has very little to do with any one person's philosophy and much more to do with me, God, and what He wants for my family.
Nonetheless, it was this walk through unfamiliar territory led by women whose thoughts and opinions I trust that brought me to that place of prayer, discernment, and realization. Elizabeth is, to some extent our leader, but I also believe she posts here for the same reasons most of us do, looking to talk through ideas and happenings at home with peers with a broad spectrum of ideas and experiences. She could choose to remain cautiously silent, worried what effect her thought process may have on someone, but I think her openness about what is going on in her home is something we all appreciate.
We must be careful not to so enjoy the chats here that we get swept on a wave that is not what is God's plan and calling to our family. We must be careful not to burden ourselves or one another with ideals and expectations that are not God's own. We must remember that at the end of the discussion we are all just moms trying our best to get it right, whether we wrote the book or not  .
As it turns out, I'm not very Waldorf-y at all I've figured out. But I do love beeswax, we are singing and playing a lot more than I originally thought we would, and at the end of each day everyone seems to recall the loveliness and beauty we've experienced together rather than the textbooks and workbooks. For that inspiration and a lot more, I am grateful.
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Colleen
dh Greg
mom to Quinn,Gabriel, Brendan,Evan, Kolbe, and sweet St. Bryce
Footprints on the Fridge
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MarilynW
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I do think Jane and Philothea have a fair point but I think that so many of us - newbies and veterans are so wanting to infuse our homes with beauty and peace and rhythm - and some Waldorf ideas help to do this. I too dismissed Waldorf years ago when my oldest was a preschooler - but I have felt it worthy of revisiting because of this thread. I am ignorant as to much of its weird philosophies but have been inspired by many of the recent blog and forum posts. Maybe it is a question of semantics and terminology - maybe we should just discuss it in terms of art and beauty and rhythms of the liturgical year - not call it Waldorf.
I think we can learn from being eclectic and picking the best out of different education methods. Maybe the recent interest in Waldorf is that is has helped many veterans find a way to reinvigorate and re-energize their home education.
Sorry this is not so coherent - I am finding it difficult to express myself. I personally am finding some inspiration in some Waldorf ideas (and I am not really crafty and not at all into gnomes etc) - but Jane and Philothea have made me think about how I present these ideas to others - eg my neigbor who I am trying to get back to the church - I have been sounding my Waldorf ideas out to her - maybe not a good thing.
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Marilyn
Blessed with 6 gifts from God
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Jane Ramsey
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Quoting Elizabeth (sorry, the quotey thing got messed up).
"Jane, I see what you're saying and honestly, it scares me. If I have to watch everything I say and everything I recommend with the idea that someone might not understand a book or a resource the way I do, or might stumble onto something bad on a website, then I need to stop posting at all. I send people to amazon all the time. And sometimes Amazon suggests books to go with books I'm recommending. And I wouldn't suggest what Amazon is suggesting."
Elizabeth, I think we ALL need to be very careful in what we say and what we recommend to other people. We must remember that we are always setting an example for those who are weaker in faith. But I you must recognize that there is a big difference in linking to a book on Amazon and linking to Waldorf stuff. People know what Amazon is--a commercial enterprise that's trying to sell them something. But a lot of people on this thread have said--"wow, this is the first time I've heard of Waldorf--it sounds so great!" A big red flag should go up there. You are sending them off to look at something that they know nothing about, other than it is recommended by you.
"But I don't think I can be held responsible for everyone's personal research trail. I've been very forthright about what I've taken from Waldorf. And I've also been very forthright about the fact that it is NOT Catholic."
I think you are responsible, if someone goes researching Waldorf, when they never would have had it not been for your recommendation...Yes, you have stated it's not Catholic. But you have not really gotten into what it IS (as far as the "spirituality" of it).
"What I think we need to look at is WHAT we are promoting: crafts using natural fibers; crafts with usefulness and meaning; stories woven throughout the curriculum; main lesson books (it's narration with art); rhythm (those monastery bells again); songs sung by mom throughout the day; imagination; an awareness of the season and the created world; a slower pace and more purposeful approach to our days and our years; an awareness of the needs of our youngest children. It's all good. I can't imagine anyone wanting to keep Catholics from it."
This is what I don't understand: why not promote these things, as part of Real Learning, without promoting the Waldorf resources themselves? Waldorf does not own a monopoly on crafts, stories, songs, and nature, does it?
"And I'd hate to let fear stop me from sharing resources that have inspired me. Seems like fear is never from God. "
I'd have to say that fear is not always a bad thing. We SHOULD fear things that could be a danger to our souls, or the souls of others. We SHOULD fear leading others into a philosophy of "spirituality" focused on man and nature and devoid of God.
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Rebecca
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Philothea wrote:
| That said, it seems to me that when you take the whole reasoning behind Waldorf (i.e. anthroposphy) and throw it out, then take out some of the key practices (gnomes, new age/nature prayers, restricting reading in the early years etc.) and throw them out, too, what you have is not really Waldorf at all. It seems to me that what is being discussed here is a couple of the ideas found within the Waldorf/Steiner movement, namely art appreciation, seasonal emphasis, and in-depth/block study. |
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I am not on the same page as you in my convictions but I can agree that what we are discussing here on this board is not true Waldorf. We are discussing Waldorf inspired homeschooling within the context of the Catholic Faith.
I do not throw out some of the key practices that you mention such as gnomes. I do not believe they pose any sort of problem or threat to my children's Catholic faith nor do fairies/ elves in the context of a fairy tale. My children are familiar with the Brother's Grimm and Hans Christian Andersen whose stories are completely made up and untrue. We study Greek Myths although they were fabricated, imagined and perpetuated by an entire civilization. We have read Tolkien who uses mythical creatures in his books. If you asked my four year old if a fairy is real she would say NO in a heartbeat. If you asked her if an angel was real, she would answer affirmatively. She can tell by the very tone of my voice and the respect given to holy things whether something is real or not.
I also do not promote early reading. It has nothing to do with Waldorf but more to do with reading Raymond Moore years ago.
Philothea wrote:
| I believe there is validity to the idea that there are a lot of less experienced women (such as myself) lurking here who look up to you veterans and seek your "stamp of approval" on various curriculums. And the fawning over Waldorf being done here recently, when in reality none of you are really using a true Waldorf curriculum, could very well lead some of us newbies astray. (I hate to put that kind of responsibility on you all, but it is a reality.) |
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Here is where I disagree. There is not a single person on this forum who has requested to be someone's role model. If there are veterans here whom you relate to or look up to in some way, know that that is your own choice. No one has asked to be admired or imitated. In my opinion, this is dangerous ground to tread. I know that each and every member here is a human being, completely capable of making good and bad choices. You cannot lay the burden of "leading others astray" on the backs of women who share their lives, educational ideas and struggles here. Who is ultimately responsible for our actions? We are. It is no one's choice but our own, whether we decide to look up to someone or not. We are all wives, mothers and home educators who are not infallable by any stretch.
Philothea wrote:
| So I bristle a bit when I see all of you wonderful Catholic women whom I look up to so much endorsing it without heavy and obvious disclaimers. |
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I think the fact that the disclaimers are obvious explains why they are not present. I, personally, cannot imagine posting a warning each and every time the word Waldorf is used in a thread.
Jane wrote:
| I find this all so sad, because we have such a treasury in the CM method, the Montessori method, the Classical method—not to mention Church teachings-- from which to draw. Why search for the “good” in a non-Christian method/religion? If you happen to find good in it, by all means use it, but don’t go then and promote that method/religion to others (who MAY not be as knowledgeable as you—and not as able to pick out the bad parts!) |
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Charlotte Mason was not Catholic. Although Maria Montessori was a Catholic, most Montessori schools and organizations are no longer so. The leaders of much of the classical homeschooling movement are not Catholics. We do not forgo their good in fear of their misunderstandings/lack of fullness of the Truth.
Jane wrote:
| Once I overheard a conversation between my sil and a friend. The friend stated that she used a certain curriculum. My sil replied she had heard that some of it was anti-Catholic. The friend said, yes, but we just skipped over those parts. I’ll never forget my sil’s response: “But why should I give my money to a company that promotes anti-Catholicism? So they can produce more anti-Catholic books?” This explains how I feel about Waldorf and about it being promoted on this forum. Every time you spend money on a Waldorf site, you are helping to promote their religion—like it or not. |
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I guess I think that is faulty reasoning. That means that every book we buy that is not Catholic is promoting the religion of its author. When I purchase a Susan Wise Bauer book, am I promoting protestantism and supporting her religion? I don't believe so. I am buying her book because I think there is something good to glean from it. I don't know of anyone (other than the Keeping it Catholic site) who claims to use 100% Catholic materials from ONLY Catholic authors. That would make for a very small pool of picture books, chapter books and educational resources. Would I buy a Catechism book from SWB or Christopherus? No. But to limit all the books we buy to only Catholic, is alarmist to me. While only the Catholic Church can claim the fullness of Truth, that does not mean that other sources need to be tossed aside in fear.
Jane wrote:
| We SHOULD fear leading others into a philosophy of "spirituality" focused on man and nature and devoid of God. |
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I do not believe that anyone is leading anyone into an evil philosophy. No one is even DISCUSSING an evil philosophy because no one is the least bit interested in the anthrosophy/philosophy behind true waldorf education. We are simply gleaning the things that are good about waldorf education and spitting out the rest.
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teachingmyown
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| Posted: Sept 25 2007 at 10:17pm | IP Logged
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I was just re-reading through the entire thread in light of the most recent posts.
Jane and Philothea, I appreciate your words of caution. However, I think that from the beginning of the thread there has been an openness about what is wrong with Waldorf and the religion/philosophy behind it. Several posts referenced having to wade through and take the good and leave the rest.
I would say that from there, the responsibility does lie with the reader. Elizabeth has done a beautiful job explaining what she has taken from it, why it appeals to her. But she has not "endorsed" Waldorf as a whole. Someone had mentioned be worried about being subtly
swayed into false beliefs. We all need to be vigilant against this and if we feel ourselves vulnerable than it is better to stay on "safe" ground.
As Colleen said, Elizabeth is a role model to many of us. But it is a little unfair to say that she can't discuss what she is excited about and join in a give and take conversation about something like this because her "followers" are taking notes and might get led astray.
IF Elizabeth had come on the forum and said "Waldorf is great! This is what the Foss family is doing now, everyone run out and buy the Christopherus materials!" without letting on that there was much to weed through, than you could say that she, as a leader, could be leading the unsuspecting down a dangerous path. I don't think that she, or anyone else, has done that.
One more point, everyone has an equal voice here. If we have an opinion we are free to speak it. So, don't sit on your hands for days disagreeing with a thread. Jump in, state your opinion. It can only add to the dialogue. I think that your words of caution will help those who are newly exploring Waldorf to pause and look deeper. That is what is so beautiful about this forum, the openness to listen and discuss and occasionally disagree.
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In Christ,
Molly
wife to Court & mom to ds '91, dd '96, ds '97, dds '99, '01, '03, '06, and dss '07 and 01/20/11
Remembering Today
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