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Elizabeth
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I understand your point a little better now, Willa.
I just want to be sure that we aren't being perceived as deciding who is "Christian enough" to be called Christian. If Steiner called himself a Christian or his church Christian, I figure I'll probably leave the rest to Steiner and God. And, honestly, I didn't delve into the spirituality at all. I wasn't looking for religion; I merely wanted to infuse my home and our lessons with warmth and light and a freshness. There's no chance my children will get a pagan education: I'm in charge of it and I'm absolutely positive that I'm Catholic.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Willa
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Elizabeth wrote:
I understand your point a little better now, Willa.
I just want to be sure that we aren't being perceived as deciding who is "Christian enough" to be called Christian. If Steiner called himself a Christian or his church Christian, I figure I'll probably leave the rest to Steiner and God. And, honestly, I didn't delve into the spirituality at all. I wasn't looking for religion; I merely wanted to infuse my home and our lessons with warmth and light and a freshness. There's no chance my children will get a pagan education: I'm in charge of it and I'm absolutely positive that I'm Catholic. |
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Absolutely, Elizabeth.
The warmth and light and freshness you describe are very appealing, and to me, very Catholic. Kim made good points about all truth being Catholic. Seasons and liturgical celebrations and natural things are Catholic.
I don't think there's any chance your kids will get a pagan education.
I have been following the thread and gleaning some ideas. As I said before, I am very glad that I can get the ideas already filtered through perceptive and artistic Catholic minds.
It was simply my concern to make a distinction between what is good, true and beautiful, which we are allowed to glean from other methods and philosophies.... and what is poisonous. Not to caution YOU -- you have been a Catholic many more years than I have -- but for the sake of clarity for the bigger audience.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Kristie 4
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Books, alot of the old fairy tales, Grimm and Anderson for instance, did not always give their stories a 'fairy tale ending'. Ever read the real Little Mermaid... it is a wee bit bone chilling, but we love fairy tales here! What I meant by the gore, was more that when the bad guy gets it- he gets it! Fairy tale authors from back then were not into political correctness. The good guys won, and the bad guys often met some type of gruesome end 
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Bookswithtea
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Kristie 4 wrote:
| Books, alot of the old fairy tales, Grimm and Anderson for instance, did not always give their stories a 'fairy tale ending'. Ever read the real Little Mermaid... it is a wee bit bone chilling, but we love fairy tales here! What I meant by the gore, was more that when the bad guy gets it- he gets it! Fairy tale authors from back then were not into political correctness. The good guys won, and the bad guys often met some type of gruesome end |
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OK. I get it.  I am so looking forward to this schoolyear. Its been a long time since I've been excited about school. In hindsight, I think I've been burned out and on autopilot for a couple of years now. This thread's help with art et al, Catholic Mosaic, and getting a handle on unit studies are making a huge difference in my actually *wanting* to get up and start school.
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~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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Jane Ramsey
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Elizabeth wrote:
I understand your point a little better now, Willa.
I just want to be sure that we aren't being perceived as deciding who is "Christian enough" to be called Christian. If Steiner called himself a Christian or his church Christian, I figure I'll probably leave the rest to Steiner and God. |
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I'm sorry--I said I was done with this thread. But my husband encouraged me to check back in and see where it was leading.
And then I saw the above statement, and I just cannot let that stand.
Are you serious, Elizabeth? And WILLA! YOU agree with that statement? 
Anyone can call themselves a "Christian"--no matter what they believe--and we cannot argue with it? IF that is so, than to be a "Christian" means nothing.
Also, I've been reading an earlier Waldorf thread wherein you, Elizabeth, stated that Waldorf was based in paganism, and you cannot Christianize a pagan philosophy. It seems that you have changed your postion on that? Now you believe that Steiner was a "Christian"?
I do not want to offend you, Elizabeth. I have always thought of you as very solid in your faith. But I do not understand where you are going with this, specifically why you are insisting that Steiner was a Christian, and that Donna Simmons is a Christian. She may call herself a Christian, but you cannot believe in true Christianity and anthroposophy at the same time, and being that she is a member of the the Anthroposophical Society, I think she is confused as to what being a Christian means.
I am very distressed by all of this. I am having trouble sleeping at night. I feel as though the forum that I thought to be staunchly Catholic is turning into something else. PLEASE tell me I am wrong!
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Jane Ramsey
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Doesn't anyone else object to that statement?!!!
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LLMom
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One reason I ditched the Waldorf real quick was because I became of better Catholic. Steiner's ideas do not fit Catholicism at all. One aspect that really bothered me about some women who used Waldorf that I associated with was their belief in a child's innate goodness. They felt like children were born perfect and "natural" and the environment corrupted them, if at all. They definently did not believe in original sin. I worry that all of these "natural" things leads people to believe that everything natural is good, and we know that is not true.
I too thought it was odd that a while back when this discussion was going on that most people here said to stay away from Waldorf and now its changed. Watercoloring, using beeswax crayons and knitting are not innately Waldorf. You can do those things and skip the reading on the method.
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Elizabeth
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You are wrong. I am Catholic and I am also offended.
Steiner and Donna both believe that they are Christians and that God alone knows. I'm not going to judge them.I'm not searching for a religion and I'm not going to waste my time researching theirs. I'm reasonable enough to be able to pull some very good things out of Waldorf books.
Yes, that thread exists (despite the fact that I could have easily deleted it). I based my opinion on the information that Lissa had dug up.I even asked her to reporduce that information because I'd forgotten what she'd said originally. And that information asserted that Waldorf was rooted in paganism. That surprised me initially because the only Waldorf school I've ever been in was in an Episcopal church. But I did believe the information at the time. When I stumbled back upon Waldorf, I went back to the thread and read what little was left of Donnalynn's arguments. I did my own research and I understood what Donnalynn had been trying to say.
I am not interested in rehashing that any further. If I could do the research for myself, so can everyone else who is interested. I'm a mom with eight kids here today who need my time and attention. I cannot sit here and discuss a religion or philosophy that has no importance in my life. Instead, I need to feed the hungry and clothe the naked in my home. I've made it very clear that I'm not going down the religion path with Rudolf Steiner.I' love my faith, my Lord, and my family. If i share what's happening in my home, it's not to teach, preach or convert. It's simply to share (though you have definitely given me reason to question the prudence of doing that).
Again, I'm not a pagan. I'm a Catholic. I happen to enjoy weaving stories of gnomes into our day and watching my children's eyes light up and hearing them ask for more. I like the smell of modeling beeswax. I love wet-on-wet watercolor (though it doesn't really love me). If you go back to that thread, you'll see that I said then that I've always incorporated Waldorf components. I don't really see how this is so different. We don't have a Waldorf school in my home. I've said in this thread that that is impossible. I've talked until I'm blue in the face about how Catholic my home is. But now, in addition to judging Steiner and Donna, you are judging how authentic my religion is.
I have to take care of my kids now. I have asked repeatedly to focus on the components of Waldorf that are entirely compatible with our faith. And repeatedly, the conversation has returned to spiritual components that we don't even fully understand. I cannot moderate a conversation like that. I don't have time to educate myself in the religious components of Steiner's church in order to educate everyone else. Nor is it necessary.If people cannot discern which elements of Waldorf are fine and good for Catholics than they should steer clear of Waldorf entirely.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Cheryl
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Jane Ramsey wrote:
| Doesn't anyone else object to that statement?!!! |
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Jane, I don't. I should say that right now I'm using mostly CHC and FIAR in my home. I don't see myself using Waldorf in my homeschool, but I'm reading this thread because I like to see what other people do and it's been interesting. I didn't interpret what Elizabeth said as meaning that she thought Steiner was a Christian. I thought she was giving an example of "Live and Let Live". This means tolerance of people who think differently than you do.
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SusanJ
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I've not read anything about Waldorf apart from these threads--though I'm thinking about it. I'm glad to see that there is an approach to education that combines so many ideas that would seem to work for my family: rhythm, art, beauty, order, nature, etc. I'm fine with finding one source for a home life that incorporates many of these things: if it's Waldorf, I feel fine, personally, with picking through what I can't use; if there is some other source out there that fits the bill, I'm all for it! (Actually, one book that comes close is called "Real Learning" anyone know anything about that ?
If I were picking Elizabeth Foss quotes to disagree with, it would probably be the earlier one, Jane. My husband is writing an entire dissertation on the role of Aristotle in the theology of Thomas Aquinas. I certainly do think Catholics can learn from the truth of the pagans.
And maybe this is splitting hairs, but I don't generally challenge people when they call themselves "Christian." If Steiner called himself Catholic, that would be different. "Catholic" actually means something specific. I'm a convert. Our family just finished several years of living and working with Evangelicals. I don't mean to offend. I love my Protestant friends, but Christian means so many things to so many people.
I'm glad for the opportunity to discuss Waldorf in this setting. I'm so grateful to all the busy moms who take the time to keep blogs and post here for the benefit of the community. And I'm glad we can have such healthy disagreement here,
Let's try to give Elizabeth a bit of a break, though. She's homeschooling seven kids and putting in a lot of time here. Digging up things she's said in the past isn't all that fair. We can discuss these ideas and the issues around them without being so personal about it.
God Bless,
Susan
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JennGM
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LLMom wrote:
| Watercoloring, using beeswax crayons and knitting are not innately Waldorf. You can do those things and skip the reading on the method. |
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While you are correct that Waldorf does not own these methods, it's been pointed out that some of the rhythms, routines, and interpretation of the art plans have been taken from copyrighted books and curriculum, Oak Meadow and Christopherus for example. These weren't original ideas, and it's important to give credit. These ideas have been extrapulated from Waldorf. Can they stand alone without the philosophy behind it? I say yes, but I still in good conscience must give my sources.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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kjohnson
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Jane,
Electronic forms of communication leave much to be desired. I think that things are being interpreted in isolation. You even said that Elizabeth has been a mentor to you and has earned a great deal of your respect. Why not give her the benefit of the doubt and judge her words in the context of the example of her life?
I have spoken to Elizabeth on this matter more times than I can count and I can guarantee you that she is not attempting to legitimize Steiner's spirituality. The point is that we shouldn't judge...in our hearts or on a public forum. Labeling other people, created in the image of God, with pejorative terms is not consistent with Christian charity. For Elizabeth (and myself) it is not a matter of declaring what Steiner is, pagan or Christian, but leaving those judgments to God. Who are we to take the scales from Him? Is it not enough to say, this doesn't complement my Faith or is not in agreement with my Faith and leave the verdict in the hands of He Who made him?
And regarding the previous thread in which Elizabeth expressed different opinions. I would hope and pray that we all recognize that life is a journey and that we process through ideas and positions and sometimes they change. I for one would be very hurt to be called insincere because I once felt differently about a topic. And please keep in mind that you have already admitted that you are not well-read on this topic. Elizabeth has invested a great deal of time and I think we all know that she would not be incorporating evil into her children's learning.
This has gone way off topic and I think it's important to remember that we are talking about incorporating Waldorf RESOURCES into our children's learning not Waldorf philosophy or beliefs. Please don't accuse us of something that we are not doing. You have hurt many of us, Jane.
I pray for peace on this board. Dear Jane, if you are loosing sleep, that is a sign that this is not a good thing. This forum is meant to support the wives and mothers who visit here, not to upset their lives. And this is not a place for judgments. And that's all Elizabeth was trying to say.
Please pray for me.
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In Christ,
Katherine
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lapazfarm
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I really don't understand all of this discord.
Aren't we all in agreement that we are attracted to the art, beauty and rhythm that is found in the Waldorf educational approach, but have concerns about the philosophy behind it?
To be honest, the problem is that there are NOT, at least that I can find, any alternative programs out there that have the same attractive elements as Waldorf, but within a Catholic framework. I asked that question earlier and got only one response, Enki, which turned out to be Waldorf-based (I think) after all.
So, does Waldorf have a lock on these things? Must we turn to sources we otherwise would shun in order to satisfy our longing for art, beauty and rhythm in our homeschools?
Theoretically, no.
But IN REALITY, can anyone show me the alternatives out there? I'd LOVE to find them because quite frankly reading Steiner-based sources makes me very uncomfortable.
Yes, the Catholic Church has joy and beauty and yearly rhythms, but unfortunately the homeschool materials are rather joyless in my opinion.
I pick and choose curriculum to fulfill certain needs in my homeschool. Montessori fills my need for order and logic. Unit-studies fill my need for connectivity. Unschooling fills my need for flexibility. Catholic materials fill my need for spirituality.
This conversation on Waldorf has been inspiring me to finally fill the need for creativity as well. If I could fill it from other sources I would. But at this point I have not found that source.
I have a feeling there are others on this board who are in the same boat,(seeking artistic expression but failing to find an outlet) and this would explain the attraction to Waldorf. It really does have something that other programs either do not have, or have not articulated nearly as thoroughly.
I think there have been plenty of cautionary posts about Steiner's philosophies that I will not rehash all that. But the need to fill our homes with creativity and imagination exists and we cannot deny that it finds expression in the Waldorf curriculum. Instead of beating each other up about it, why can't we just support each other and help each other fill the need which, judging from the popularity of this thread, undeniably must be addressed?
Why can't the topic of discussion be "How can one take from a very flawed curriculum, that which is real and true, and so obviously very much longed for, without compromising our Catholic faith?"
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Theresa
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kjohnson
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SusanJ wrote:
If I were picking Elizabeth Foss quotes to disagree with, it would probably be the earlier one, Jane. My husband is writing an entire dissertation on the role of Aristotle in the theology of Thomas Aquinas. I certainly do think Catholics can learn from the truth of the pagans.
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Susan, I made this point yesterday, based on my studies of Aquinas at a Catholic University. (Whose board has signed the Mandatum and is 100% in line with the Magisterium.) This line of argument isn't consistent with Catholic intellectual tradition and much more reminds me of a evangelical fundamentalist position. It is the Catholic position to recognize that non-Christians have contributed to the dialogue of truth. And should a Roman Catholic Christian reject this, they would be in turn rejecting about 800 years of theology based on the contribution of Aquinas.
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Katherine
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Rebecca
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I want to mention that while this board is a blessing to all of us, it is also a tremendous amount of WORK for those women who are moderating. On a daily basis, it involves reading those posts in ones forum as well as responding to any and all private emails. When a debate comes up that is heated, moderators spend an inordinate amount of time behind the scenes trying to calm down the situation and refocus the group back to peaceful discussion. Thanks to those moderators who are working hard to keep this thread on track.
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Jane Ramsey
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Dear Katherine and Elizabeth,
I am sorry for offending or hurting anyone. I will take you at your word that you (Elizabeth) are Catholic and intend to remain so. You did scare me a bit there, but that is the drawback of reading words on paper rather than talking to someone. You are right (Katherine) that this form of communication leaves much to be desired.
My objection was that Elizabeth's statement could be taken by a reader to be legitimizing Steiner's philosophy, by saying that he was a Christian. It is true that only God can judge him. I am not trying to do that. What I AM saying is that the word "Christian" has a definite meaning to me. I means someone who believes in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, born to save us from our sins. From what I have read of Steiner (and I HAVE read some!) I cannot see where he fits that definition.
I would call that discernment, not judgement.
And I do think that more thought and research could have been done on all of this before it was so vigorously promoted here. When you talk to someone of CM's method's, don't they ask: well, who was this Charlotte Mason? What was her background? What did she believe? Where was she coming from? I think everyone wants to know all they can about the person who is the originator of whatever method you are talking about. That's just human nature, and it is a good practice, too.
So, I feel the same way about Waldorf. If the Waldorf method is going to be promoted here, I want to know: Who was this Steiner guy? What did he believe? Where is he coming from? I'm sorry if that seems to be taking it off topic, but I see other people asking, should I use this book? Is there anything anti-Catholic in it? What should I look out for? So apparently other people are concerned about this, too, and saying that Steiner was a Chrisitian just really muddies the water.
I feel like we have started down a dangerous path here. Waldorf methods and materials are being promoted, but we don't have time to educate ourselves (or others) on the origin of them, so they know what to watch out for. We have given a warning, but for some people, that is not enough. Some people are not as well-grounded in the faith as others, and they want to know what they should steer clear of? Who is going to tell them if no one has the time to research it and give clear answers?
Finally, I did not call Elizabeth insincere based on the previous thread. I simply asked if she was changing her position.
And, I DO understand that no one is advocating incorporating Steiner's beliefs. I did not accuse anyone of that. But it is terribly misleading to say he is Christian. Again, that is discernment, not judgement.
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KathrynTherese
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kjohnson wrote:
| I think it's important to remember that we are talking about incorporating Waldorf RESOURCES into our children's learning not Waldorf philosophy or beliefs. |
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This is the point to remember, and the point I tried to make in my earlier post. Waldorf philosophy gets kooky in places, but doesn't everything, when it is separated from the full truth? Yet there are elements of truth everywhere, and we are free to be inspired by them.
As someone said, we learn philosophy from the Greeks, we can be inspired by Protestant music, we can be moved by art created by we-dunno-what, we read literature written by pagan Greeks and Romans and more. I wouldn't allow any of these philosophies to change anything I believe because they all go wonky at some point (our family is laughing and shaking our heads at the stories the Greeks told; how could they be so wise and reasonable and yet believe in Epimetheus and Hera and Poseidon?) - but they are still welcome elements in my life and in our homeschool.
The Church recognizes that there is truth everywhere, but that only the Church possesses the fullness of truth. So there is nothing wrong with taking what is true from many places and Christianizing/Catholicizing it! John Paul II did this is in his own career as a philosopher - he took arguments and elements used by others wrongly and he applied the light of Christ to them.
Maybe our use of the word "Waldorf" was misleading. Maybe we should have been clearer by saying we are incorporating "Waldorf-like elements." Maybe that would have eliminated some of this, because no one here is interested in a Waldorf philosophy. Only the gentleness and naturalness (which is a superficial slice off the top) interests anyone here, and the presentation (cleansed of its pseudo-religious philosophy) can inspire.
New thread: Incorporating Waldorf-like elements 
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Mary G
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First, I think discussion of different types of curricula is one of the reasons why this forum was originally created by Elizabeth and others. We're all seeking the best way to bring real learning into the heart of the home. There are some who feel CM should not be looked at by Catholics; some who feel Montessori (as its being played out in America today) is very far from Catholic; etc.
I think y'all see my point.
As folks who have chosen to educate our children in our own homes, we each will have differing opinions of what will work and what won't. If we are not allowed to debate those things -- by describing what works or doesn't, what we like or don't like -- than this board has no purpose. If people feel that they can't post CONSTRUCTIVE (note: NOT destructive) comments or ask questions, than again, this forum has no purpose. When personal comments are leveled at members -- no matter who they are -- this tears apart the community that has been built over the last almost 3 years!
Overall, I'm happy this came up -- I think we had some great discussion about a way of teaching that few may have known about. But no one is implying that we should all shift, wholeheartedly to Waldorf. I like much of what I have "heard" here and I have a great friend -- who is very Catholic -- who is able to incorporate much of Waldorf teaching into her home whilst still ignoring the non-Catholic stuff.
And this is no different than someone who incoporates some of CM without throwing in the Anglican or Victorian-era elements. Nor is it any different than a mom who uses CHC for Sacrament Prep and Usborne (which is pretty secular) for her spine for history and science? We need to do what works in our own homes.
Please remember that moderators are moms too -- we don't always agree amongst ourselves and when we post as moms we are giving our opinion, asking for advice, or seeking help from others. When we put on our moderator caps, it's a whole different game.
So, as a moderator, I am locking this thread to avoid anymore discussions on the spirituality of Waldorf. If you would like to discuss different aspects of Waldorf education -- how-to do the art, how to incorporate math, reading, whatever -- please post these in the subject areas.
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MaryG
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Waldorf (
