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guitarnan
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Michele, you have a good point! I have lived in Italy and Ireland (where I went to Catholic school for a term), and I'm sure that there are cultural differences in the way Catholics around the world evaluate Church documents. There is a huge difference between the American point of view and, well, pretty much everyone else's. We tend to think in terms of individual "rights" in a way most other people don't really understand.
Regarding textbooks, in Ireland (long ago!) we used all of the nationally-required textbooks for the Leaving Certificate exam. There was no question about any other materials; one couldn't pass the required exam without sticking to the national syllabus. In Italy, my friends who had children in Italian Catholic schools showed me some of the class materials and they seemed to be mainly secular. Italian children attend catechism once per week, in the evening, similar to CCD.
One other thing to note: I believe most European countries have regional or national syllabi (especially at the older grade levels); some of these countries don't permit homeschooling at all. My Italian friends certainly understood that I wanted to teach my children at home to keep them in a Catholic school situation (since they didn't speak Italian and thus couldn't do well in an Italian Catholic school), but they couldn't comprehend homeschooling as a "secular" concept...something that it would be a parent's right to do. Italian culture is more group-oriented than is the American culture.
This shouldn't discourage any of us from reading encyclicals and studying Church documents and teachings. I think it's great to be part of a community in which this kind of study is part of the Catholic family experience!
Great rabbit trail.
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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TracyQ
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When speaking about this with my dh, we got into a great discussion about this topic. This may have been mentioned before, but he brought up the fact that even totally CATHOLIC texts are not all perfectly *true*, and that we can't be assured that they are just because we use them, and this is for ANY subject, including history, or the teaching of our faith in religion books.
I know for instance, the Morality book for grade 8 in our religion program is ridiculous! The same company puts out a New Testament book for grade 7 that I found to be decent (not great,but decent). The Morality book is horrible! It's FULL of liberal agenda, opinion, and half-truths about what the Catechism truly teaches regarding many issues! The whole truth is not presented! That isn't a secular text, but a Catholic text! (BTW, our new DRE agreed with me, and is allowing me to use my *own* made up curriculum, Praise God!  )
I don't think we're necessarily safe using any particular text, book, or resource at all, Catholic or not Catholic. And the fact that it has an Impramatur (or the other thingie) on it, is also not indicative of total truth or safe teaching based on the Catholic Church's true doctrine. This Morality book I'm sure carried one of those in it. 
History comes from ALL different perspectives. It's one of those subjects where there is often a definite bias mixed in, no matter how hard one tries for there not to be when writing or interpreting it. Math is finite, absolute, but history is not. I've always thought history is like watching baseball...you may see the exact same play as the person you're watching with, and you will see it two completely different ways.
I think when it comes to teaching from other resources, English, Math, Health, Writing, Languages, etc. are pretty absolute, and not very difficult to discern, unless I'm missing something as I think this through.
Religion, history, and some science are more where we need to find the balance, and teach our children the best we can, with the resources the Lord leads us to use, and using the wisdom and knowledge He gives us through prayer and discernment.
This year for history for our 8th and 5th graders, we're going to use From Sea to Shining Sea for our base text, which is Catholic, and we're going to also use A History of US by Joy Hakim, which I've read has definite biases, but is a great resource to use as a resource. We'll also bring in other resources that we have, or will find in the library or online, both Catholic and non-Catholic. With these, we'll always do our best to point out the differences and why there would be differences, etc. This makes for great discussion in our homeschool many times.
I think it's also our responsibility to point out to our children (in our family) the biases and agendas given to us by the world and the society to which we now live. They need to be prepared to defend their faith, and their country, and if there are agendas that are not in line with our faith, they'll need to know that. And we also need to teach them that we have to be open to others, and reaching out to them in christian charity. But we do that in our family over time, and I feel that God prepares us to teach those things to our children as we learn and grow more, and as our faith matures. My dh and I can only teach it to our children as far as our children's understanding and maturity of faith allows. The rest, I'm praying they'll learn as they grow and learn, after we teach them HOW to be able to learn, and educate themselves. So the rest, we put in God's hands through much trust and prayer, knowing we've done our best.
It's not easy to do all of this, but the Lord has always been good to give us everything we need for this journey through our devotion and love for Him. Praise God!
I feel like I'm rambling, so I'll stop now. I hope what I wrote makes some sense???? Sheesh! I don't think I slept enough last night!  But I think it helped ME to clarify this issue in my mind, so I wanted to type it out. Maybe I've over-simplified it, I don't know. But my mind is definitely simple. 
Blessings to each of you WONDERFUL homeschooling families today!!!!
__________________
Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
 homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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tovlo4801
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I just wanted to jump back in and clarify something. This conversation has gone in many different directions that have been very interesting to discuss, but not all of them are really related to DIM.
DIM doesn't really set out to address Catholic-only materials. As has been mentioned before it's very clear that it's focus is on places where civil education is pushing out the role of Church and family in education. The document sets up the proper role of each of these societies and then expands on the practical implications. There certainly are places to infer things about our right to homeschool or the sort of books we should consider using in our homeschools, but this is definitely not the purpose of the document. I agree that we should be careful not to indicate that this document decree's Catholic-only texts (it does not), or that it gives solid approval for the right to home school (it indicates that right might be there, but it is not at all directly addressed).
I also wanted to draw out another point from the document. I made note as I was reading through the document how frequently the document refered to Christian morality and Christian teachers. It did not frequently (if at all) refer to Catholic morality and Catholic teachers. What do you think of that?
Of course we as Catholics are Christian, but we on this group often distinguish between Catholic and Protestant materials. We are often not agonizing between Christian and secular materials. I wonder how much this document even is speaking to the decision between various Christian materials. As mentioned, it's focus was clearly on places where civil society was taking rights away and the document was trying to re-establish the rights of family and Church. The document doesn't seem to address the concern of various sects within Christianity. Did anyone else make that observation? Anyone have different thoughts on this?
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tovlo4801
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I also had some good discussion with my husband last night as I considered Tracy's post. Part of our conversation focused on my need to question things. I was considering if there was some sort of problem with my wrestling with questions so frequently. My husband assured me that this questioning is a search for Truth and goes hand in hand with faith. He called my attention to the document Fides et Ratio (Faith and Reason). I looked this encyclical up last night and the opening quote of the document just jumped out at me.
Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).
There is also reference to this in DIM.
56. Not only is it impossible for faith and reason to be at variance with each other, they are on the contrary of mutual help. For while right reason establishes the foundations of Faith, and, by the help of its light, develops a knowledge of the things of God, Faith on the other hand frees and preserves reason from error and enriches it with varied knowledge.
I think these two quotes help clarify some underlying themes that have been running through this discussion as well. It seems that there is some concern that the conversation is leaving Faith behind. I don't know if that is true, but it is clearly true that there needs to be Faith and Trust right in lockstep with the reasoning.
I hope that the reasoning continues because that desire to know does burn deeply within me and reading the words of God through His Church helps me to know my Love better. But the underlying caution to not leave faith behind is certainly not without merit.
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TracyQ
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Excellent quotes, Richelle, and oh so true! I recalled a passage in Scripture that really cements this from our very first Holy Father:
2 Peter 1
1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours in the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord. 3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. 5 For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be the more zealous to confirm your call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; 11 so there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To me, there is no seperation of reasoning/learning/studying of faith and faith itself. They go hand in hand because your faith can't grow and flourish without either one.
There is NOTHING wrong with wanting to learn, grow, study, and reason in our faith. That's our calling as Catholic Christians!
St. Peter says that when we have ALL of these things, we are kept from being *ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ*. Pretty amazing! 
Blessings to you!!!
__________________
Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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MicheleQ
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guitarnan wrote:
| This shouldn't discourage any of us from reading encyclicals and studying Church documents and teachings. I think it's great to be part of a community in which this kind of study is part of the Catholic family experience! |
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Oh absolutely but perhaps we can be broader in our thinking when we do read them. Personally I wish more people would read and study the Catechism. It's so beautiful and rich. If someone read only the Catechism they would gain great knowledge and understanding of our holy Faith.
Mind you, I'm not saying we shouldn't read other things just that so many times I end up back at the Catechism and am amazed by its beauty and depth. But that's another rabbit trail. . .
God bless,
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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ALmom
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The document clearly states that we must teach truth. It is the church's role as guardian of the truth to oversee all learning - in the sense that it identifies error as it appears, not as an expert in every field of knowledge. But, truth in science is not contradicted by other truths or vice versa. When it comes to infallibility, the church is granted this and scientist or historians or ... are not. We must pay attention to the guidance of the church in all fields.
IMO the document does not dictate kinds of texts etc and I doubt this would be dictated. However, I do think the document calls us to reflect on the best way to present truth to our children. This is an area of prudence, etc.
The document also clearly indicates the falsehood of seperating truth (faith and reason are not isolated from another and fields of learning are not untouched by the faith. This is the reason the church has a right to oversee science and history and... Obviously, the church does not exercise this role in a way inconsistent with her own mission - she identifies error when a scientist claims something opposed to the faith or a psychologist, etc. When there is an apparent contradiction between faith and reason, either we have understood something wrong in faith or we've made an error of observation or reasoning. The church has the final say in these matters.
When I speak of my desire to use Catholic texts, this is a prudential decision on my part and does involve identifying Catholic texts. Nothing is Catholic that is contrary to the faith and morals of our Faith - so the morality text referred to is, in truth, not a Catholic text. It is the role of the bishop of that diocese to see that this is removed from use. It is the role of the parent to make sure that their child is not taught error through so terrible a text.
In the natural arena, we look at authors and texts. If I have found a particular author to be a wonderful writer, I tend to purchase those books more readily. If I have found something to be deficient, I will hesitate to use them again. In history or science, I look at the bias and background of the author before deciding how much credence to give. It doesn't mean I don't read anything opposed to my point of view - but I sure wouldn't rely on it for teaching the young. I think this is a matter of prudence. Perhaps, there are those of you who have the experience and time to go through a book with a careful attention and Catholicize it, I don't have either the time or the expertise. An error that might not be a major issue for an adult, will be for a child. I'm not saying don't use other things, but make sure you are presenting Catholic truths in all fields.
I have seen language books that involve dictation that have the Faith Alone statement to copy and memorize. Sure, I can preview all my children's texts and delete all these references but wouldn't it be better to have your child copy/dictate from the poems of St. Thomas Aquinas. By doing this, the children learn implicitly the connection of all learning and have aspects of their faith reinforced. Sure I could substitute St. Thomas in these non-Catholic texts, but why would I want to take the extra time and energy to do all that. Math problems include word problems. Some texts are straight forward, others try to incorporate whatever the worldview of the author is. Science is real problematical for a Catholic because the church has not definitively spoken on certain things but has, in fact, identified error. Do we go with the secular view with it's implicit lack of faith in God and horrendous sexualty presentations in Biology, or with the Protestant view that spend most of the time in their science texts trying to refute parts of evolution that don't necessarily have to be refuted and with very limited science - but just enough to sound reasonable to a non-science person. It is the Catholic view of Faith AND Reason where we will find truth. I do not have the time to become an expert in all fields of science in order to address this, I'd much rather use a truely reliable Catholic source. Of course, I use living books from all different places. I can look at the recommendation of anyone - but must investigate the text at some level myself. When I find a reliable person that refers things to me that are consistently in keeping with Catholic truth, and beautiful and easy to use, then it is only right that I tend to rely on that to save me time and energy.
Janet
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Elizabeth
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Dear Richelle,
I don't think anyone is being resistant to reading encyclicals. Acutally, I'm at the notion of Michele being accused of being even a little bit "anti-encyclical." I know few people who have read and contemplated Church documents more than she has. When she talks about the Catechism I think she's just marvelling aloud at the richness and completeness of its teaching. All that wisdom, much drawn from the encyclicals in one neat package! I think we are being cautious about scrutinizing this encyclical to the exclusion of other components of the church's teaching on education and to the exclusion of our own personal discernment in our own domestic churches. We all desire to be faithful to the Church's teaching in all things. This is a group of women who have gone to extraordinary lengths to live the Faith. And we know that, in part, the deposit of the faith is found in the encyclicals. But to get a complete picture of what the Faith has to offer in guiding us as we teach, we need to consider this encyclical in light of canon law, parochial and diocesan context, the teaching of the saints (particularly those who were great scholars and teachers like St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Teresa Benedicta and great shapers of young souls like St. John Bosco), the catechism, the Bible and even our own spiritual directors who might have personal relationships with our children. DIM is just one piece of a large puzzle. None of those other things contradict it, of course, but they all shed light upon the others.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Elizabeth
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The above post isn't going to make much sense because it looks like a post was deleted...oh well. Now I feel silly for having wasted the last half hour trying to soothe and explain...
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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tovlo4801
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On the off-chance someone saw my most recent post before I regained good judgement and deleted it, I'm sorry. 
I don't know what's wrong with me. I'm finding offence where there is none lately. I'm going to put myself in a little forum "time-out".
I love the conversation. It has taken a decided turn to focus on Catholic-only materials debate and it's been very interesting.
I'm going to keep checking in to see what other's think as they finish reading the document. Gwen have you finished it yet? What are your thoughts?
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tovlo4801
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Elizabeth,
Don't feel bad. I'm glad you took the time to explain it to me. Thanks.
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cathhomeschool
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Richelle, I know I encouraged you to post your thoughts on DIM, and then left you to discuss it on your own! I promise I'm going to post, just trying to find a long enough moment so that I can actually *think* about what I'm saying! My littles have had rough nights lately, so I haven't managed to get up early enough for personal quiet time the last few days. Going to put them down now...
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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MicheleQ
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Elizabeth wrote:
| When she talks about the Catechism I think she's just marvelling aloud at the richness and completeness of its teaching. All that wisdom, much drawn from the encyclicals in one neat package! |
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Yes exactly! Thank you Elizabeth.
Richelle, please accept my apology. My comments weren't directed at you at all (or anyone on this forum for that matter). It was more frustration with those who say "see, the encyclical supports my view" and writes to Kathryn and I about it, completely ignoring the idea that it was never meant to address this issue and that it was in fact written for the whole Church and not just us Americans. It was, as I said, another rabbit trail and I apologize for straying from the topic here of Divini Illius Magistri - a worthy topic indeed.
Quote:
| I think we are being cautious about scrutinizing this encyclical to the exclusion of other components of the church's teaching on education and to the exclusion of our own personal discernment in our own domestic churches. We all desire to be faithful to the Church's teaching in all things. This is a group of women who have gone to extraordinary lengths to live the Faith. And we know that, in part, the deposit of the faith is found in the encyclicals. But to get a complete picture of what the Faith has to offer in guiding us as we teach, we need to consider this encyclical in light of canon law, parochial and diocesan context, the teaching of the saints (particularly those who were great scholars and teachers like St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Teresa Benedicta and great shapers of young souls like St. John Bosco), the catechism, the Bible and even our own spiritual directors who might have personal relationships with our children. DIM is just one piece of a large puzzle. None of those other things contradict it, of course, but they all shed light upon the others. |
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Very well said Elizabeth. I completely agree!
God bless,
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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JennGM
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I think we are being cautious about scrutinizing this encyclical to the exclusion of other components of the church's teaching on education and to the exclusion of our own personal discernment in our own domestic churches. We all desire to be faithful to the Church's teaching in all things. This is a group of women who have gone to extraordinary lengths to live the Faith. And we know that, in part, the deposit of the faith is found in the encyclicals. But to get a complete picture of what the Faith has to offer in guiding us as we teach, we need to consider this encyclical in light of canon law, parochial and diocesan context, the teaching of the saints (particularly those who were great scholars and teachers like St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Teresa Benedicta and great shapers of young souls like St. John Bosco), the catechism, the Bible and even our own spiritual directors who might have personal relationships with our children. DIM is just one piece of a large puzzle. None of those other things contradict it, of course, but they all shed light upon the others. |
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Beautifully put! We can't examine one encyclical in a vacuum. Our Church is living and breathing. All teachings build on one another, and we must examine an encyclical with all teachings and Tradition, past and present.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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momwise
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tovlo4801 wrote:
| Gwen have you finished it yet? What are your thoughts? |
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Hi,
I've been flying in and out of the house all week. I have been steadily reading a few paragraphs at a time and making some notes (I had to look up erudition today  ).
I am surprised by the level of authority the civic government has and also by its duty to educate. The warnings to govt. about the consequences of educating outside the safety net of the Church's truths and love for all men are prophetic aren't they? I'm going to google 1928-29 in history to see what was going on (Russia was post-Communist; could this have been directed partly to them?).
Sorry I'm behind. I'll work on it
__________________
Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
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cathhomeschool
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Richelle, you've asked some great questions! Some of these questions may have been answered in the course of the thread, but I thought I'd comment anyway! (I'm pulling from several posts here...)
tovlo4801 wrote:
| What are some specific ways that you turn to the Church to help you complete the formation of your children? |
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We try to go to Daily Mass regularly and to Adoration at our parish as well. Frequency of these outings has been directly related to our schedules each semester, though. Of course we turn to the Church in times of sacrament preparation as well. Here the diocese requires attendance at RE classes for the year before and year of sacrament reception. We comply, and participate in the RE classes as opposed to dropping the kids off. We turn to encylicals, the Catechism, R.E. books like Faith and Life. We read the lives of the saints. We participate in activities in our parish, both so that we can be an active part of the community and so that the children have exposure to other great Catholics. (Our parish is a college ministry parish, and I especially love that the children see such great examples of faithful, conservative Catholic college students here.) We especially try to live out the Liturgical Year/special events in our parish whenever possible -- extra Masses for feast days/Ordinations/children's birthdays/International Masses, participation in processions, outdoor Stations of the Cross, etc.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| To what extent do you turn to civil society for aid in forming children for the temporal well-being of the community (or the common good)? |
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Well, we turn to civil society for swim lessons (public or private), music lessons, scouts, sports (currently swimming, and hockey), museum visits and music concerts, free plays/lessons at the George Bush Library, story time and free demos at the library. I think that all of these things fall under the category of the "common good" because they help form well rounded citizens.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| Does anyone else find themselves a little worried about giving too much control to the civil society despite the truth that they do have a role to play in our children's formation? |
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I don't worry much because we always participate in our children's activities. We don't drop them off and leave, and have never come to a situation in which we needed/wanted to enroll them in a camp or class that completely gave authority for hours or days to someone else. So for us, it hasn't been an issue yet.
tovlo4801 wrote:
| I also wanted to draw out another point from the document. I made note as I was reading through the document how frequently the document refered to Christian morality and Christian teachers. It did not frequently (if at all) refer to Catholic morality and Catholic teachers. What do you think of that? |
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I assumed that within the context of the encyclical, Christian and Catholic are one in the same. It seems that in other places (though I can't think of where at the moment), the Church has used these words interchangeably. I might be wrong though....
Some thoughts that I jotted down after reading the encyclical...
One of the original concerns that Richelle brought up was whether or not a CM education was discouraged by DIM. I think that the encyclical actually supports a CATHOLIC CM education:
From DIM paragraph 8. education makes upon the soul the first, the most powerful and lasting impression for life according to the well-known saying of the Wise Man, "A young man according to his way, even when he is old, he will not depart from it."[4] With good reason therefore did St. John Chrysostom say, "What greater work is there than training the mind and forming the habits of the young?"
Charlotte Mason principle 7: By "education is a discipline," we mean the discipline of habits, formed definitely and thoughtfully, whether habits of mind or body. Physiologists tell us of the adaptation of brain structures to habitual lines of thought, i.e., to our habits.
From DIM paragraph 34. The wisdom of the Church in this matter is expressed with precision and clearness in the Codex of Canon Law, can. 1113: "Parents are under a grave obligation to see to the religious and moral education of their children, as well as to their physical and civic training, as far as they can, and moreover to provide for their temporal well-being.?"
Charlotte Mason principle 8: In saying that "education is a life," the need of intellectual and moral as well as of physical sustenance is implied. The mind feeds on ideas, and therefore children should have a generous curriculum.
From DIM paragraph 59. "Folly is bound up in the heart of a child and the rod of correction shall drive it away."[40] Disorderly inclinations then must be corrected, good tendencies encouraged and regulated from tender childhood, and above all the mind must be enlightened and the will strengthened by supernatural truth and by the means of grace, without which it is impossible to control evil impulses, impossible to attain to the full and complete perfection of education intended by the Church, which Christ has endowed so richly with divine doctrine and with the Sacraments, the efficacious means of grace.
Charlotte Mason principle 17: The way of the will: Children should be taught, (a) to distinguish between 'I want' and 'I will.' (b) That the way to will effectively is to turn our thoughts from that which we desire but do not will….
From DIM paragraph 7. In fact, since education consists essentially in preparing man for what he must be and for what he must do here below, in order to attain the sublime end for which he was created, it is clear that there can be no true education which is not wholly directed to man's last end, and that in the present order of Providence, since God has revealed Himself to us in the Person of His Only Begotten Son, who alone is "the way, the truth and the life," there can be no ideally perfect education which is not Christian education.
And paragraph 19. Whatever a Christian does even in the order of things of earth, he may not overlook the supernatural; indeed he must, according to the teaching of Christian wisdom, direct all things towards the supreme good as to his last end
Charlotte Mason principle 20: We allow no separation to grow up between the intellectual and 'spiritual' life of children, but teach them that the Divine Spirit has constant access to their spirits, and is their Continual Helper in all the interests, duties and joys of life.
Of course, CM has other principles that I haven't mentioned, and the encyclical makes many other points, but the main points that struck me with regards to Catholic CM are:
"there can be no ideally perfect education which is not Christian education" (p. 7)
"What greater work is there than training the mind and forming the habits of the young?" (p. 8)
" But alas! it is clear from the obvious meaning of the words and from experience, that what is intended by not a few, is the withdrawal of education from every sort of dependence on the divine law." (p. 62) --- It seems to me that this is one of the BIG points of the encyclical -- to explain why education should be bound by divine law and why the state should support this in theory and action . CM's principle 20 shows that she is not trying to remove education from the under the authority of the divine. Paragraphs 63 to 69 of DIM also focus on this idea, and seem to address Dewey's ideas (which I don't know anything about except what I read in the other education thread). Again, I don't think that CM falls under this category.
Several paragraphs towards the end of DIM sum up beautifully the type of education we here are trying to give to our children by using a Catholic CM model:
80….It is necessary not only that religious instruction be given to the young at certain fixed times, but also that every other subject taught, be permeated with Christian piety. If this is wanting, if this sacred atmosphere does not pervade and warm the hearts of masters and scholars alike, little good can be expected from any kind of learning, and considerable harm will often be the consequence.
86. In such a school, in harmony with the Church and the Christian family, the various branches of secular learning will not enter into conflict with religious instruction to the manifest detriment of education…
87. In such a school moreover, the study of the vernacular and of classical literature will do no damage to moral virtue. There the Christian teacher will imitate the bee, which takes the choicest part of the flower and leaves the rest, as St. Basil teaches in his discourse to youths on the study of the classics…
88. Perfect schools are the result not so much of good methods as of good teachers, teachers who are thoroughly prepared and well-grounded in the matter they have to teach; who possess the intellectual and moral qualifications required by their important office; who cherish a pure and holy love for the youths confided to them…
96. Hence the true Christian, product of Christian education, is the supernatural man who thinks, judges and acts constantly and consistently in accordance with right reason illumined by the supernatural light of the example and teaching of Christ; in other words, to use the current term, the true and finished man of character.
A very long post, I know, but I was determined to post my thoughts on the encyclical! Now aren't you sorry you asked?!
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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Willa
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I'm back from camping -- just catching up on all the posts on this topic. I've printed out DIM to read through on the trip to town today for Aidan's developmental screening.
You all have said such a lot of great stuff! Trying to absorb it all...
Just in case someone hasn't seen it, I wanted to mention the NAPCIS website which is a resource center for Catholic schools -- includes links to encyclicals and other Catholic resources (check under the Resources link). There are also free MP3 audio talks.
Like Gwen, I have been surprised when skimming through DIM at the respective roles of parents, Church, and state. I remember once that someone said that Charlotte Mason gave way too much authority to the State (saying that parents had a duty to the State as well as to God in educating their children) but the encyclical seems to follow much the same lines.
It seems from the encyclical that:
Parents have the PRIMARY duty and right to educate their children but they are STEWARDS so their right is by no means absolute or arbitrary.
The Church has the SUPREME teaching authority (as opposed to primary, and I'm still working out how that applies in day to day life). I think it's because the Church is a teacher of parents, not just children -- she is OUR teacher too so we have to be guided by her.
The State seems to have rights to ensure that children are raised to be good citizens.
It's an interesting balancing act, but I like what St Thomas Aquinas says about the father's generative powers having an educational aspect as well as a physical one.
Anyway, off to read the encyclical and catch up on going through the rest of the discussion posts.
Neat to see you on here Tracy 
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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TracyQ
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Thanks Willa! You're so sweet!!!
Janette, FANTASTIC post~ thanks SO much for your insight into this encyclical! Excellent!
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Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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Leonie
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**Parents have the PRIMARY duty and right to educate their children but they are STEWARDS so their right is by no means absolute or arbitrary. **
To be honest, imo there *will be parents who need this kind of safeguard, so the Church wisely discusses this - there may be parents who will make their responsibility both supreme in power and arbitrary in choices.
I have just finished reading "The Bronte Girls" by Gary Kilworth. I know it is fiction, but it brings up interesting issues related to this theme. It is about a family in today's world, whose parents ( especially the father) secretes them away from ANY contact with the modern world ( including Church attendance). They try to live as the Brontes did, so long ago.
Now, in the book, this leads to (untalked about in the family) tensions - and may be an example of where we need to balance the role of parents, state and Church.
Leonie in Sydney
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tovlo4801
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Thanks for all your great insights guys! Janette, you sold me on the acceptableness of CM! 
Gwen, I was struck by the same things you mentioned. I'm curious about what you turn up in your search of history at the time.
Willa and Leonie, you make really great points about parents being primary, but not supreme. I believe there is a section in DIM that addresses that though I couldn't find it in my quick skim through of my jotted up copy.
Thank you guys for your great insight. It's really made reading this document even more fruitful.
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Divini Illius Magistri/real catholic educ
