| Author | |
Leonie
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2831
|
| Posted: July 18 2005 at 6:19pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Sopme jumbled thoughts - I have been offline .I can see where the conversation has taken some interesting turns -great food for thought, everyone!
Tracy is right, imo, with her post on trust. We need to make use of the graces of the sacraments, especially the sacrament of marriage, in our role as Catholic parents and as Catholic homeschooling parents.
Often I can over prepare and over research myself - "to death" - to the death of fulfilling my daily duties and to the death of thinking in my dc, by not encouraging discussion and communication with my dc as to why or why not a particular viewpoint or resource is good/bad/indifferent.
I think it's good to educate myself about that which the Cburch teaches. I also think it is good to know that, if we are living and teaching the Catholic faith and making use of the sacraments and praying for graces - well, our little homeschools *will be providers of Catholic education. They may not be "the best" but God knows we are striving for excellence, to do what is right, to do what is Catholic. We do all we can and leave the rest to God, who always does all He can. 
And, to be honest, my parish priest is busy and has not shown/is not able to have time for the interest, time or desire to oversee my homeschool materials. And the Bishop is the same - and often in a tug of war with modern materials used in many Catholic schools.
I use Catholic materials and other materials of Truth - definitely Catholic materials for religion, definitely living books, Catholic and other, for everything else. In a Catholic home, all this amounts to a living Catholic education, in my experience.
Not perfect, but striving. 
Leonie in Sydney
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Marybeth
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 02 2005
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1277
|
| Posted: July 18 2005 at 10:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Just a little story to throw in to the thread about some college guys in the 1950s.....
My Dad and his friends were taking Cannon Law and Church History using Encyclicals at Loyola University in Chicago. They all worked part-time after their school day was finished. On the nights before major tests, midterms, finals or oral exams they would all study together and sleep over at one friend's job. This friend of my Dad is now a very highly respected pathologist...in the 50s he was just a penny pinching college guy like my Dad. Anyway, this friend worked nights and went to school full-time in the day. He was allowed to sleep at work as long as he always woke to answer the telephone and pick up deliveries. What deliveries did he have to pick up?
Well, he worked in a funeral parlor! 
After these guys finished studying, they would cozy up in the coffins and sleep until morning!!
They would shut the coffin lid on the guys who snored too loud.
I always think of my Dad sleeping in a coffin when I read a new encyclical.
God bless,
Marybeth
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: July 18 2005 at 11:07pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
ALmom wrote:
There is some debate (I wish I could remember where the article was) about how Catholic homeschoolers fit into all of this as a very orthodox priest leveled criticisms towards homeschoolers very much like the woman's on this post and suggested that we were trying to duck or get out of requirements for obedience and were not being consistent (willing to criticize the PPX people but not willing to submit to authority ourselves). I remember how much this disturbed and confused me. I then saw a letter to the editor from (I think it was a canon lawyer) that explained homeschooling and replied and answered the criticisms to this to my satisfaction. Does anyone know where that was from - it would be a great supplement to this discussion.
|
|
|
Janet,
I think this might be the article you are referring to:
Canon lawyer's article on homeschooling
This doesn't directly address the topics we are discussing here, but has valuable information regarding homeschooling rights in general from the Canon Law perspective.
I, unfortunately, haven't been able to find the original series of article/columns of Fr. Stravinskas, Fr. Rogers, and Fr Hettinger (to which this refers) on-line.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
materdei7
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 1:22am | IP Logged
|
|
|
OK....I'm up way too late.  But, I knew there was an article by Catholic Answers that covers this topic. I think they also printed the Fr. Stravinskas article a while back too? The end of this article should give us all a boost of hope and peace  May God continue to guide us, and may we be open to doing His will.
Blessings, Kathleen
F e a t u r e A r t i c l e
Homeschooling Is Not a Crime
An Explanation of Relevant Canon Law
By Jimmy Akin
This Rock
Volume 14, Number 10
December 2003
The subject of homeschooling has caused a bit of a flap recently in the pages of some orthodox Catholic publications. It has been claimed—inaccurately—that Catholic homeschoolers are violating Church law if they choose to homeschool their children when Catholic schools (or at least acceptable Catholic schools) are available to them.
Here we will examine the various arguments of a legal and non-legal nature that have been brought forward to urge Catholic homeschoolers to put their children in parochial schools.
In the interests of laying my cards on the table, I should mention that I am a strong advocate of homeschooling. Should I be so fortunate as to marry and have children, I plan to do what is necessary to make homeschooling possible.
That being said, I recognize that homeschooling is not the best option for every child or every family. The particular educational experience that is best for a child depends on a wide variety of academic, spiritual, emotional, and cognitive factors.
Educational Diversity
It is not the case that one form of schooling fits all students, even one that offers the kind of individualized attention and customization that homeschooling does. Children who are deaf or blind or dyslexic or otherwise learning disabled may be best served—particularly during parts of their education—by specialized programs that can impart skills for which their parents may not be the best teachers.
Some children may need a full-time environment in a specialized program. Certain adolescent boys, for example, do better in the environment of a military academy than in other school settings.
The educational needs of students also change over time. Those of a six-year-old are very different from those of a college freshman, and this must be taken into account. This means that a student will need different educational environments at different times in his academic career.
Even the strongest advocates of homeschooling do not advocate awarding doctoral degrees in microbiology or particle physics in a homeschool environment. Even if the parents were the ideal teachers for these subjects and somehow could afford the technical apparatus that students in these disciplines need to use, most employers would not honor such degrees. Thus social factors—such as whether a school is accredited—also play a role in determining what will be the best educational environment for a child at a given stage of his academic career.
The best kind of educational experience for a particular child may be one that the parents—for familial, financial, or legal reasons—may not be able to provide. Virtually every parent would like to be able to provide even better for their children than they are able to.
All of this—the widely varied educational needs of children plus the limited resources of the parents—adds up to a situation where there is no one ideal educational solution for each child and each family.
The Catholic Church recognizes this. As a result, it does not seek to impose a single educational model upon Catholic families. Indeed, as we will see, it is a strong advocate of parental choice when it comes to the education of children.
Catholic Schools
In the Code of Canon Law, the canons governing schools (as opposed to universities) are 796–806. They cover the rights of parents, the rights of the Church, and the qualifications and role of teachers.
Canon 803 spells out what constitutes a Catholic school: "That school is considered to be Catholic that ecclesiastical authority or a public ecclesiastical juridical person supervises or that ecclesiastical authority recognizes as such by means of a written document."
In other words, there are three ways in which a school can bear the title of being a "Catholic school." First, it can be supervised by ecclesiastical authority (such as the diocesan bishop). Second, it can be supervised by "a public ecclesiastical juridical person" (such as a religious order). Third, it can be supervised by someone else (e.g., a group of parents who run it) but have received written recognition as a Catholic school by the competent authority.
What is at issue here is the right of a school to call itself Catholic. The Code goes on in the same canon to recognize that schools can be Catholic in substance but not be allowed to use this title when advertising themselves. Thus the Code says: "Even if it really be Catholic, no school may bear the title ‘Catholic school’ without the consent of the competent ecclesiastical authority" (803 §3).
This tells us what schools may call themselves Catholic. What kind of Catholic schools may the Church establish? Canon 800 states that "the Church has the right to establish and supervise schools of any discipline, type, and grade whatsoever."
There is even a responsibility on the part of the diocesan bishop to establish suitable schools when they are lacking: "If schools imparting an education imbued with the Christian spirit are not available, the diocesan bishop is to see to it that they are established" (CIC 802 §1).
A bishop might fulfill this responsibility, for example, by encouraging another party, such as religious institute whose proper mission is education, to establish such schools in his diocese (cf. CIC 801). Or he might establish the schools directly.
The range of schools that the bishop may be called upon to establish or seek to have established is quite impressive: "The diocesan bishop is to provide for the establishment of professional schools, technical schools and other schools required by special needs whenever such would be advantageous" (CIC 802 §2).
Responsibility of the Faithful
Regardless of whether Catholic schools are founded by the diocesan bishop, by a religious institute, or by another party, what is the faithful’s responsibility toward them?
This is spelled out in canon 800: "The Christian faithful are to foster Catholic schools by supporting their establishment and their maintenance in proportion to their resources."
Though one can support a school by volunteering, the principal thing the Code has in mind here is support in the form of donations of either money or material goods.
The Code thus specifies a general responsibility on the part of the faithful to provide material support for Catholic schools. But the only specification found in the provision is that the faithful support Catholic schools "in proportion to their resources." This presumably means that those who have many resources should provide more substantive support for schools than those who have few resources. That leaves the precise determination of amounts up to the individual.
It also doesn’t create a legal obligation to support any particular Catholic schools. The provision is part of canon 800, which deals with the right of the Church to establish schools, not the role of the diocesan bishop in doing so.
While it may be presumed that most of the faithful will support Catholic schools in their own diocese, there is nothing in the canon specifying that this is where they are to direct their support. There is nothing in the canon preventing one from sending their support to Catholic schools outside their own diocese.
Indeed, it isn’t clear that the responsibility is intended to be fulfilled by each individual. The condition of the faithful varies widely, and many may be in positions that they are not practically able to devote resources to Catholic schools specifically. They may have other commitments for the resources they have.
It seems then that the responsibility of the faithful toward Catholic schools is rather limited. It includes a generalized responsibility for supporting them financially, but the relevant provision of the law does not generate a responsibility for particular members of the faithful to support particular schools in particular amounts on particular occasions.
Parental Choice
Let’s address the options that are open to parents. In particular, is there anything in canon law preventing them from choosing to educate their children in a homeschool?
The answer is no. A general statement of the parents’ rights in educating their offspring is found just before the canons on schools: "Parents as well as those who take their place are obliged and enjoy the right to educate their offspring; Catholic parents also have the duty and the right to select those means and institutions through which they can provide more suitably for the Catholic education of the children according to local circumstances" (CIC 793 §1).
The circumstances in which parents find themselves vary widely from one place to another. The canon takes note of this fact and acknowledges the right of parents to provide "more suitably for the Catholic education of their children." If a homeschool will do this better than other available schools—even local Catholic schools—then they have the right to use one.
What if there are local Catholic schools that are capable of providing well for the children’s Catholic education? Are parents under an obligation to use them?
Again, the answer is no: "Parents are to entrust their children to those schools in which Catholic education is provided; but if they are unable to do this, they are bound to provide for their suitable Catholic education outside the schools" (CIC 798).
Note how the first part of this requirement is phrased: Parents are to place their children in "those schools in which Catholic education is provided" (Latin, illis scholis in quibus educationi catholicae provideatur). Since Catholic homeschools provide such education, they meet this qualification.
The canon does not say that parents have an obligation to place their children in "Catholic schools" (Latin, scholae catolicae)—a concept the Code has not to this point introduced. (Its first mention is in canon 800.) Canon 798 merely requires parents to place their children—if possible—in schools that provide Catholic education (and if not possible then to provide for this education outside of school).
The canon doesn’t require that children be placed in a diocesan school or a religious school or a cooperative school run by parents with the consent of the bishop. It just requires a school that provides Catholic education. Even a state-run school that provides for Catholic education would qualify, and a typical Catholic homeschool qualifies as well.
Since the Code places no further restriction on the schools to which parents may send their children, Church law does not prohibit using homeschools to educate children if the parents choose.
Objections
Catholic opponents of homeschooling have raised a number of objections that should be mentioned. First, though, I would like to mention an objection that I have not so much seen expressly drawn out by homeschool opponents but that seems to me to be the most plausible objection that could be raised: The relevant canons in the Code are written in such a way that they presuppose that the school is an institution distinct from the family. This is true. The Code does use language speaking, for example, of parents entrusting their children to teachers who are apparently different from the parents themselves.
It is natural that the Code would speak in this way, because this is the typical situation in which most parents find themselves, and it certainly was the typical situation when the Code was promulgated in 1983, before the homeschooling movement got off the ground.
But this creates no legal barrier to the formation of a school whose teachers and students are all members of one family. Just because the language doesn’t specifically reflect this situation does not mean that it is disallowed.
The language also does not reflect situations in which a parent may be a teacher in a public or Catholic school at which his child attends, but that isn’t disallowed either. Some Catholic schools are so small that teachers cannot practically avoid teaching their own children in certain classes.
A less substantial legal objection could be made from the fact that the faithful are called upon to financially support Catholic schools in canon 800 §2. Wouldn’t the best way of doing this be by sending one’s children to the school and paying their tuition?
Maybe, but that doesn’t create a legal requirement to do so. All canon 800 does is direct the faithful to foster Catholic schools in proportion to their means. That doesn’t say anything about putting one’s children in them. The directive is nonspecific and does not require any particular action on the part of any particular person with regard to any particular school. It certainly requires nothing as specific as putting one’s children in a local school.
Further, the canon is directed toward the financial maintenance of Catholic schools, and one can support them financially in all kinds of ways besides paying tuition.
At this point, Catholic homeschool opponents might raise a number of non-legal arguments. For example, putting your children in the parish school sets a good example for others. In response, one might point out that one’s controlling duty as a parent is not to set an example for other parents but to provide for one’s own children’s education, and a local Catholic school may not be the best way of doing that.
To this it might be replied that if there are problems with the local Catholic school, then rather than pull one’s children out of it one should work to fix it. "It’s your school; fight for it" seems to be the argument. I have little sympathy for this line of thinking. As noted, the controlling duty of parents is the education of their own children, not campaigning to clean up schools.
Even if a school is run by the parents’ own parish, that does not make it the parents’ school. All too many parents have found local Catholic schools (and even the bishops to whom they are responsible) resistant to fixing problems in recent years. If a given school had only a few problems that could be fixed with relative ease, it could be an act of merit to work to fix them—assuming that was what was in the best interests of the parents’ own children.
It is the children’s interests that are primary, and parents are entitled to say, "I’m sorry, but I am not going to place my children in an educational war zone that will take who knows how many of their formative years to clean up—if that is even possible."
While the decision of many parents to pull their children out of public and Catholic schools may have been prompted initially by the problems in those schools, many have found that homeschooling simply provides a better educational experience for their children. The small class sizes and the lack of a school bureaucracy that homeschooling provides allows homeschool students an unparalleled degree of individual attention and customization of the learning program.
Homeschool children are typically able to get through the same amount of material in far fewer hours a day than children in traditional schools. This suggests (as many traditional school students will complain) that there is an enormous amount of time wasted in traditional schools on "busy work" and material that is below the level of the student.
This is what one would expect in a classroom environment where the teacher has a large number of students to deal with. Typically the teacher has to keep the more advanced students busy while he helps the slower ones. By reclaiming these lost hours, homeschool students tend to do as well as or better than traditional school students and get to spend the missing hours on more important things—like relating to their parents, siblings, and friends, thus meeting their socialization needs without the sometimes cruel environment of a typical grade school classroom.
Thus, even if the local Catholic schools are all sterling examples of what such schools are meant to be, parents still may well conclude that their children’s educational needs are better met in a homeschool. Catholic opponents of homeschooling should recognize and respect that "it is necessary that parents enjoy true freedom in selecting schools" (CIC 797).
------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------
Jimmy Akin is director of apologetics and evangelization at Catholic Answers. His books include Mass Confusion and The Salvation Controversy.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
materdei7
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 1:37am | IP Logged
|
|
|
No, I'm not a night owl....but, I did find the Fr. Stravinskas article....I will paste the website instead of posting the entire article. Happy reading!
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0307fea1.asp
__________________
Kathleen, mother of five on earth, three in heaven.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MaryM
Board Moderator
Joined: Feb 11 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 13104
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 2:54am | IP Logged
|
|
|
materdei7 wrote:
No, I'm not a night owl....but, I did find the Fr. Stravinskas article....I will paste the website instead of posting the entire article. Happy reading!
http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0307fea1.asp |
|
|
Fr. does mention homeschooling briefly in this article, but there was a series of columns and letters that appeared in The Catholic Answer magazine (the one from Our Sunday Visitor publications not one from the apologetics organization, Catholic Answers) in 2003. Those are the ones that raised all the controversy. Unfortunately, OSV-The Catholic Answer magazine does not have many of it's articles archived on-line. I was hoping it would be reprinted somewhere else on the web but am only finding references to it not texts.
__________________
Mary M. in Denver
Our Domestic Church
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
momwise
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 28 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 8:45am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Kathryn UK wrote:
Gwen wrote: #23: "Again it is the inalienable right as well as the indispensable duty of the Church, to watch over the entire education of her children ... not merely in regard to the religious instruction there given, but in regard to every other branch of learning ..."
Kathryn wrote:
Isn't this talking about a more general supervisory role over Catholic schools rather than explicit authorisation of any particular books or syllabus? |
|
|
Both I think. It *is* confusing though because several Canon Law excerpts were thrown in with regard to the content of religious texts and it didn't help to concentrate here in this thread on the encyclical. DIM is concerned with the whole of education, so it isn't just the Catholic schools She has authority over, it is also the family and civic society, although these do not always recognize Her warnings.
Richelle, I'm about halfway through and I am learning a lot! As far as the original question goes, does DIM forbid CM methods, I can't see where it does. However I'm more aware of the need to investigate, pray
and seek out the wisdom of the Church.
Just so we're on the same page, we were challenged that DIM restricts us from using narration, nature studies, frequent breaks and short class times, minimum of texts replaced with living books (this is where I see the most problem and the Catholic texts cannot be replaced with texts with errors), training in handiwork, etc. because these methods were set forth by someone with a protestant world view.
I'm still not sure where we stand with replacing Catholic texts (if there are any good ones) in other subjects with secular "living" books.
I've really appreciated this topic and reading, especially the advice and opinions of all the smart parents here. I liked one of the previous posts that said we do need to trust in the Holy Spirit. We can't live in constant fear that we are somehow unknowingly violating the Law! A priest told me once that if we are seeking the will of God with a pure heart and open to the Truth, God will not let satan come in and ruin our faith. This would be too much of a fear for me to live with. I'll go finish now
__________________
Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 9:26am | IP Logged
|
|
|
momwise wrote:
| I liked one of the previous posts that said we do need to trust in the Holy Spirit. We can't live in constant fear that we are somehow unknowingly violating the Law! A priest told me once that if we are seeking the will of God with a pure heart and open to the Truth, God will not let satan come in and ruin our faith. This would be too much of a fear for me to live with. I'll go finish now |
|
|
To me, this might be the most important point of all. We can become so absorbed with trying to determine the fine points of the law, that we are in danger of scrupulosity.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MicheleQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2193
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 9:41am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth wrote:
momwise wrote:
| I liked one of the previous posts that said we do need to trust in the Holy Spirit. We can't live in constant fear that we are somehow unknowingly violating the Law! A priest told me once that if we are seeking the will of God with a pure heart and open to the Truth, God will not let satan come in and ruin our faith. This would be too much of a fear for me to live with. I'll go finish now |
|
|
To me, this might be the most important point of all. We can become so absorbed with trying to determine the fine points of the law, that we are in danger of scrupulosity. |
|
|
I want to echo this. I just don't believe that God calls us to this and then leaves us to figure it all out alone. There's no doubt in my mind that God led me to CM (I put aside all things CM for a time and really prayed and focused on God's will for our family and he led us right back to what I has set aside).
I DO think we should be constantly learning and growing in our understanding of the Faith but that doesn't mean we don't move forward because we don't know it all yet. We grow in understanding all the time and places like this are a great help to that.
What saddens me is how there can be such division and strife over the "right" way to homeschool. It's good to be challenged and forced to take a closer look at what we believe but to be made to feel that a particular method or style is somehow "less" Catholic is sad and not at all helpful in building up the body of Christ.
God bless,
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
materdei7
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 11:30am | IP Logged
|
|
|
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/education/ed0224.h tml
This article was very good, written in 2004, by Benedict Nguyen. Title: Home Schooling in Canon Law
The author is the chancelllor of the Diocese of La Crosse,Wi, where he serves as the Defender of the Bond
before the diocesan tribunal.
Here is an excerpt:
"It is clear that Canon 1136 (along with Canon 793 §1, which is examined below) puts the right and the responsibility of determining what are the best means to provide for the education of children in the hands of the parents. The idea that Catholic parents must, under normal circumstances, enroll their children in Catholic schools in effect usurps this right of parents. This usurpation would be unacceptable according to the standards set by Pope John Paul in Familiaris Consortio. It seems highly unlikely that the Church, after repeatedly emphasizing the right and the primacy of parents in seeing to the education of their children, would then so limit this right as to say that it can only be fulfilled, under normal circumstances, in a Catholic school system. As the noted canon and civil lawyer Edward N. Peters wrote:
One could hardly have expected, therefore, the Code of Canon Law to place juridical obstacles in the way of parents exercising their vocational charisms. To the contrary, the Code of Canon Law has taken great care to protect parental primacy in seeing to the education of children, whether that parental right and duty is legitimately entrusted to others, or whether it is directly exercised by those who will most immediately answer to God for the raising of their children.
In fact, nowhere does canon law mandate that parents must enroll their children in Catholic schools. (Canon 798, which only seems to require this, will be examined below.) Rather, canon law requires parents to live up to their obligation and determine what is the best means by which a Catholic education can be transmitted to their children. If the parents can best accomplish this through home schooling, then home schooling is not only a legitimate means, it is a laudable labor of love for parents who are trying to take seriously their vocational duties."
We need to trust in God and know that what we are doing
for our children, our family is a calling..a vocation,
a fruit of the sacrament of marriage! Let us continue to
pray for guidance and wisdom.
__________________
Kathleen, mother of five on earth, three in heaven.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
TracyQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1323
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 2:32pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
tovlo4801 wrote:
Yet, as K mentioned I don't know every possible heresy out there. How can I be sure that I'm not just falling prey to a clever seduction that I'm not wise enough to ferret out?
When I talked in my previous post about needing to be prepared to teach material that might oppose our faith, this is what I was talking about. There is seductive evil out there. If we are not careful about what we expose our children to we could be causing our children to stumble. If we are going to allow our children to be exposed to the world outside the fullness of the Catholic faith (as I think we should), then we need to have some level of preparation in being able to ferret out and expose those seductive dangers. I'm not sure I'm up to that task. The cost if I'm not is awfully great. |
|
|
Richelle,
I understand what you are saying, we are ALL prey to seductive everything in this world. We're prey to false teachings in this world. That is part of life!
But what I'm saying, and what I know to be true from my walk on this journey of faith is that if our hearts are truly open to Jesus, if our desire is complete obedience and trust in HIM, He will NOT ALLOW us to fall prey to the seductive false teachings and evil of this world. If our hearts and our desire to please Him, love Him, serve Him, glorify HIM only are pure, and if we are walking on that journey with Him, He will protect us and not allow us to fall prey to the enemy in ANY way. WE as Catholic Christians must believe that! It's paramount to our faith. It's TRUST. Without trust, how can one have a relationship with Jesus?
Proverbs 3:5 says, *Trust in the Lord with ALL thine heart, and lean not unto thy own understanding. In ALL your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your path.* I think we need to trust in that direction. We need to have complete and total trust in Him. If I am questioning in every thing and in every way God leads me, I don't think I'm showing my trust in Him. It's easy to do that, because we can fear the Lord so much, that we fear for our salvation. But I think that can be very dangerous to fear Him so much, so that we are so scared that we do become scrupulous as Elizabeth said. Doing this breaks our trust with Jesus.
If I have a friend, and I want to get to know that friend the best I can, so that I make good choices to make our friendship good, and to make it the best relationship I possibly can, that's a good thing. But when my friend tells me something, and I keep asking why and asking that friend to explain even more, and I keep going to that friend and saying, *But if what you're telling me isn't true, you're not going to like me anymore, and you'll stop being my friend.* I think my friend will become very upset, wondering why I can't seem to let go of my insecurities and my fear and trust what they say!
That's what I think happens when we are SO fearful of Jesus, and when we're SO scared of whether or not we're doing the *right thing or perfect thing*. What if we later learn that we made a bad decision based on something we learn later that we didn't know at the time? We can't possibly KNOW everything now! We can't possibly have the knowledge of God! He's God! I don't think that's how it works. We gain knowledge as a gift from Him, as we show Him our devotion, trust, and love, and as He sees fit.
We are given the knowledge of what we NEED to know as we go along. We are held accountable for our decisions based upon our heart's desire to please God, follow Him, serve Him, TRUST Him, and love Him fully, and based on the knowledge and grace He's given us THUS FAR along our walk on this journey with Him.
He gives us the grace and knowledge we need in order to make ALL decisions, and in order to walk with Him fully as long as our heart is fully desiring this. If it isn't, THAT'S when we would need to worry. We certainly CAN make a poor decision not to follow Jesus fully, and then yes, we're putting ourselves in jeopardy, and inso doing, the lives entrusted to us as well. But when we're truly following Him with our heart desiring to do so, He knows what we're capable of knowing, deciding, and doing, and won't possibly lead us to do something we're not supposed to do, or that would put our soul in peril. He is our protector, our shield, our fortress, our deliverer from evil. It's why He instructed us to pray, *Deliver us from evil*.
When we go to the Lord every day, thank Him for it, and give to Him the gift of our full heart's desires to TRUST and LOVE Him fully, and we give Him all of our cares and concerns, including those to whom He's entrusted us, asking Him to lead and guide us according to HIS will, we really don't have to worry about anything! He doesn't expect us to do it perfectly, He just expects us to do it in total obedience, trust, and love for Him every day. He'll take care of the rest! And we have to trust in the Holy Spirit to help us discern every day in leading us to follow His will.
Here's Proverbs 3 in its entirety. It's beautiful, and so helpful to remind us that it's through our trust, faith, and loyalty to Him, that we gain favor with God.
Proverbs 3
1 My son, do not forget my teaching, but let your heart keep my commandments; 2 for length of days and years of life and abundant welfare will they give you. 3 Let not loyalty and faithfulness forsake you; bind them about your neck, write them on the tablet of your heart. 4 So you will find favor and good repute in the sight of God and man. 5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths. 7 Be not wise in your own eyes; fear the LORD, and turn away from evil. 8 It will be healing to your flesh and refreshment to your bones. 9 Honor the LORD with your substance and with the first fruits of all your produce; 10 then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine. 11 My son, do not despise the LORD's discipline or be weary of his reproof, 12 for the LORD reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights. 13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom, and the man who gets understanding, 14 for the gain from it is better than gain from silver and its profit better than gold. 15 She is more precious than jewels, and nothing you desire can compare with her. 16 Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor. 17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness, and all her paths are peace. 18 She is a tree of life to those who lay hold of her; those who hold her fast are called happy. 19 The LORD by wisdom founded the earth; by understanding he established the heavens; 20 by his knowledge the deeps broke forth, and the clouds drop down the dew. 21 My son, keep sound wisdom and discretion; let them not escape from your sight, 22 and they will be life for your soul and adornment for your neck. 23 Then you will walk on your way securely and your foot will not stumble. 24 If you sit down, you will not be afraid; when you lie down, your sleep will be sweet. 25 Do not be afraid of sudden panic, or of the ruin of the wicked, when it comes; 26 for the LORD will be your confidence and will keep your foot from being caught. 27 Do not withhold good from those to whom it is due, when it is in your power to do it. 28 Do not say to your neighbor, "Go, and come again, tomorrow I will give it" --when you have it with you. 29 Do not plan evil against your neighbor who dwells trustingly beside you. 30 Do not contend with a man for no reason, when he has done you no harm. 31 Do not envy a man of violence and do not choose any of his ways; 32 for the perverse man is an abomination to the LORD, but the upright are in his confidence. 33 The LORD's curse is on the house of the wicked, but he blesses the abode of the righteous. 34 Toward the scorners he is scornful, but to the humble he shows favor. 35 The wise will inherit honor, but fools get disgrace.
May the Lord bless you and your family on this journey with Him!
__________________
Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
 homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
mrsgranola
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 17 2005
Location: North Carolina
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 442
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 3:21pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hello everyone-
I'm sure most of my postings are too short and disjointed, but so is my brain right now. But I do want to take this moment of brief silence in my home (except for the Divine Mercy Chaplet playing on RealPlayer) to tell you how much I appreciate this conversation and others like them.
I rarely have time to post my thoughts in a productive way, but I have been seriously pondering all this the past several days. It's been a real climax of my summer - a summer of upheaval, moving, hormonal changes (in me and my oldest!) and real serious soul-searching about our homeschool. I've always been a pretty relaxed, self-confident homeschool mom for the most part, but this past year has been very difficult. I dare say that if there was a decent Catholic school in the vicinity, Jacob would have been there this year.
You've all got me really trying to revamp my thinking and figure out what's important, what's not and where I've gone wrong.
Thank you all-
Now they're at it again so I have to run..
God bless-
JoAnna
__________________
Mom to Jacob, Grace, Mary, Lucas, Emma, Carrie and Gianna
Parente Adventures
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn UK
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 924
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 4:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
momwise wrote:
| I'm still not sure where we stand with replacing Catholic texts (if there are any good ones) in other subjects with secular "living" books. |
|
|
I'm still confused . In the UK there doesn't seem to be any question of Catholic schools using Catholic texts for any subject other than religion. As far as I can establish, it isn't a matter of the texts not being there so having to make the best of what is available - it just isn't an issue. I found this on the website for the Catholic Church in England and Wales:
The Catholic Education Service (CES), in conjunction with the National Board for Religious Inspectors and Advisers (NBRIA), the national organisation of Catholic RE directors who work in individual dioceses, has both commissioned and prepared Religious Education curriculum material and programmes for use in Catholic primary and secondary schools.
These programmes and publications are listed on the CES website. They include God's Story, The Church's Story, Scriptural Icons and Take and Read. This material enables individual governing bodies with advice from their own diocesan director of RE to fulfil their obligation to provide Religious Education teaching in keeping with teaching and principles of the Catholic church.
Individual teachers and other adults interested in children's learning are encouraged to study for the Catholic Certificate in Religious Studies (CCRS). Detailed information on the CCRS is provided on the CES website.
Curriculum material linked to the subjects contained in the National Curriculum is normally available to the school and individual teacher through the Local Education Authority.
The only concern appears to be with religious education, and other academic subjects are simply referred to the education authority.
Now is this a function of a system where the majority of Catholic schools are part of the state (public) school system? Is there any canonical problem with Catholic schooling being state supported? I presume not, as I know that this system was the hard won result of a long struggle by the bishops - who presumably would not have fought so hard if there was any canonical difficulty.
I'm afraid I'm off on my own little rabbit trail here ... but I do wonder how much the interpretation of DIM varied (or varies?) between different provinces of the Church.
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
tovlo4801
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 28 2005
Location: Minnesota
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 386
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 5:38pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Tracy,
Well, I'm not sure how to take your post. I admit I'm struggling not to take it personally. It sounds an awful lot like I'm being accused of scrupulosity. I'm not sure how that applies here. My understanding is that scrupulosity is the belief that there is sin where there is not. I'm not sure what I've said or done that indicates I believe I've sinned.
I DO love God a great deal. My searching and questioning is the fruit of my desire to truly do His will. I don't really understand where my reading in DIM a caution that due preparation should be made in order to address material that may be in opposition to the teachings of the Catholic Church leads to the assumption that I'm scrupulous? I don't believe that I'm prepared right now to address those issues well with my children. I'm certainly not indicating that I'm not going to homeschool my kids. I'm simply saying that I will be careful about what materials I will use and when those materials approach subjects that I don't feel completely prepared to deal with I will seek out resources that can help me do that. What am I missing here?
If the suggestion of scrupulosity is coming from my comments about not being sure of God's will, I don't think that's terribly uncommon either. (nor do I think it indicates scrupulosity?) I know my dh and I have had conversations about this sort of thing in the past. He always wonders when he hears people say, "God told me to do it," exactly how that happens. Do they actually hear God's voice? I know some people do. My dh and I do not. I think it is a challenge for most people to discern what God is calling them to do. I think our best guess is subject to our own sin corrupting what God is asking of us.
I DO trust God. As I've said before though, he does give us free will. It is certainly possible for sin to corrupt God's guidance. In His wisdom he allows for that. Ultimately we grow even from our mistakes. I certainly don't expect to ever be free from sin or the possibility of making mistakes this side of heaven. I do want to do what is in my power to make sure I'm discerning God's will to the best of my ability.
I don't allow my questions to keep me from moving forward. I love homeschooling and I am doing the best job I know how to do. But I don't allow my moving forward to keep me from asking questions that can allow me to understand God better. It's because of my love for God that I keep striving to grow and know him better. I'm completely perplexed as to why this seems to be a problem.
Please forgive me if I've completely misunderstood your post.
I really enjoy the philisophical conversations that have been had on this forum. I gain so much understanding from batting around these issues and I do seek out that growth frequently. When I struggle with an issue I do want to ask the questions from all sides of it to make sure I really understand. I'm wondering though if you guys would like me to stop asking these kinds of questions here. I want to respect the people who are part of this group and if my questioning is causing people to be uncomfortable then I don't want to continue. Please just let me know.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 7:25pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm not certain what is required in texts but I do know that our local Catholic private school booklist looked identical to the ps list - so obviously they use secular texts. One of the things that happened is that Catholic publishing companies lost business to arms of secular publishing houses that would have a branch for supplying Catholic schools (they were large and could underprice the Catholic publishing companies, I think). When the Catholic schools became dependent on secular publishers, they began to have trouble getting them to publish books the way the bishop wanted them. This was true even for religion texts which is one of the reasons it took so long to get errors removed. At least this is what I heard. (My question is why don't we support this burgeoning resurrection of the Catholic publishing industry like Sophia Institute Press, Roman Catholic Books, TAN, Ignatius Press, etc. Many of them are struggling to stay financially soluble and are also publishing and re-printing some real Catholic classics). There is also the entanglement with federal money - programs like DARE and SCAN, but that is a whole seperate thread.
In looking at the posts about using non- Catholic materials, a few questions come to mind that may show we are not all that far apart as we think?
How are we using non Catholic materials and with what age? I have no problem the way Kolbe does this with a high schooler. I do think it is unwise to start with that kind of thing for a young elementary age child. I do not restrict my children's choice of reading material to Catholic authors - but I do make sure (or if they are old enough to discern more themselves -have taught them to discern that some things are bad to read, some things they just aren't ready for and some things teach beautiful Catholic truths whether or not the author is Catholic) we select reading materials carefully. I am pickier about what I present to them (as opposed to just lying around the house)than what they pick for themselves. This is especially true of literature. However, I do want to make sure that my children are exposed to great Catholic authors, so I may require certain ones to be read for English. I would not consider using anything Protestant as a main spine for history - remember the source. I want my children to know the truth first, then we can look more at other points of view and analyze according to age. If it is a field in which I have a great deal of knowledge, then I may be able to discern some of this myself and provide the detail needed to correct the error - if not, I need help. I don't have a lot of time and energy for spending the majority of my time refuting errors - nor is it the best use of the children's time. We look at different points of view if my children have questioned something and I do the best I can. I am a little uncomfortable that we did use a secular history spine in American history for a child that wasn't real solid in history. I very much regret the Protestant science text we used (but recommended by a Catholic homeschool provider)- our dd now thinks in a sort of creationist way and we will have to refute that - and I don't begin to know enough science to show the errors and she doesn't have the science background to begin to understand even if we do explain it well. We have ordered a book based on Fr. Jaki for us to read and try and refute this. I am thinking that this could have been avoided in the first place. We returned a Greek book because it was written by a Protestant using the Bible in an imersion method to teach the Greek language. I know no Greek, but I do know there are plenty of disagreements on how certain Greek words of the Bible should be translated and I didn't think it was worth opening up that can of worms with a 6 grader. I don't think it would be worth it with a high schooler in terms of the time and effort involved to refute the errors. I have trouble using non-Catholic materials as the spine/meat of my curriculum when there are Catholic materials available. I may have to do the best I can if there are not any - like the lack of Catholic science materials for many years. This does not mean we don't pick up great books from the library on plants, animals, etc., etc. from a wide variety of authors. We don't check the author's religion before checking out the book - but do glance through for problem areas and trust our own ability to discern. Books we pick up to read might actually be a part of a protestant program, certainly we use a lot of the same biographies in American History. I doubt we would like the same things when it comes to the crusades or middle ages. This is a lot different than ordering a whole program/ spine from a Protestant source and trying to Catholicize it which, I think, would be more problematical.
What I understand from the encyclical is the importance of realizing that scientific truth is not divorced from religious truth. All truth is one unit. The truth of our faith should permeate all aspects of our learning and religion should not just be a seperate subject relegated even to 1 hour per day, nor should we fail to recognize the religious truth that is part of science and history, etc. Our faith informs all branches of learning. I don't think the document forbids the use of secular or other Christian materials, but it does caution that we should not be teaching error in our "schools". The church has identified some errors (EX: part of evolution that denies that God directly created the human soul and that there was a first man and woman), we recognize some (Ex: various threads complaining about Protestant history materials that slam Catholicism) and some we may initially miss (but trust that God will reveal this to us as we go about seeking His will).
What about the source of the information - we always look at the source of anything to determine how much credence to give it. As a historian or scientist, you always look at who is writing the article so that you know whether or not the person is qualified to speak in the area addressed and how seriously to consider areas you may not be comfortable with. So if the author is a known dissenter or a faithful non-Catholic or a secular non-believer, how much confidence do I have in the material? This does not mean I never read it, but do I use it as the spine of my curriculum? I see a big difference there. If I know there are errors that I am planning to teach my child to recognize, then it is truely not enough just to say this is wrong. The error does have to be corrected. Certainly you can use the material to help a student discern as in Kolbe high school materials. Prudence would dictate that you consider the students age and prior knowledge and also your own ability to refute errors. This is all part of choosing wisely in forming to the Faith.
There can certainly be a wide range of methods and ways of teaching and someone else's school will not necessarily look like mine. I like CHC in the younger grades because they give me beautiful materials that incorporate this unity of all the disciplines, while being short and sweet to allow plenty of time for projects, additional reading(they often suggest it in the lesson plans themselves). It creates a Catholic framework in which everything else fits. I have found their materials to be solid and balanced (not promoting novos-ordo over traditional or traditional over novos-ordo; balancing the faith and reason in the field of science and I have never had to return anything to them because of an error I wasn't sure I could refute) Does someone else have to use CHC in order to achieve what the encyclical teaches - of course not! I have found that they save me time and energy while helping me to do things I don't do well unless I have their support.
I do think the encyclical makes us pause and examine our schools - not in a scrupulous way but does ask us to ask: Am I teaching truth? Do I recognize the relatedness of all truth? Does my faith permeate the entire school and not just the religion subject? Is error slipping in because I have been careless in my selection of materials? Have I been careful and prudent when using outside sources (delegated teaching, non-Catholic materials)? I certainly have had to examine myself in these areas and think that I should do better.
Janet
This has been a wonderful thread for me? Every challenge has made me examine myself and helped me to clarify my own understanding a little more. You are a great bunch! I do hope I get to actually meet you.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
TracyQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1323
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 10:19pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
tovlo4801 wrote:
Tracy,
Please forgive me if I've completely misunderstood your post.
|
|
|
Richelle,
No, please forgive me. I've obviously hurt your feelings, though I PROMISE you that was NOT my intention! 
I do NOT think you're scupulous (sorry, I don't know how to spell that word LOL), and I didn't mean to imply that I thought YOU were that at all! What I meant (and obviously didn't say in the best way possible) was that when we WORRY so much about our sin and whether we're doing the right thing or not, even though we're making the decisions we best can with the knowledge and grace given to us by God, we RISK (as I was referring to whomever said that before) the possiblity of being scrupulous. I know I often risk that all the time by my waning of trust in God and His plan for me. I'm sorry if you thought I was accusing you of that now, that was NOT what I was intending. I'm sorry if I misunderstood what you are asking about too, because apparently I did. 
I don't think I understood your post I guess, or at least didn't understand it fully. I was thinking in reading them that you were having trouble with the question, *What if I do something wrong, or lead my children to do something wrong? I'm putting my soul and theirs in jeopardy. What if I sin by not knowing what I should know, and how would I answer to God for that? I thought you meant that you weren't up to the task of teaching your children the truths of the faith that you don't now know??? And it seemed that you were so worried about that, and that made me sad, because we do not need to worry about it, nor should we. God equips us with all we need to teach our children everything they need to know, academically, and spiritually.
I didn't understand that what you meant was that you don't understand how you can teach FROM material that is NOT from our faith, that you don't feel you're up for the task. I apologize that I misunderstood what you meant!
I spoke to my dh about this (he always gives me great wisdom and a better way to say things when I'm struggling, as I am now). I asked the question that you are asking about being prepared. What he said really struck me. He said, the Catholic Church doesn't just disregard other faith's culture. They take that culture (or parts of it), and MAKE it Catholic. For example, the dates of Christmas and Easter were taken from pagan holidays and made Catholic. So too, we can and should take resources that we use for educating, and MAKE them Catholic, just as we take Charlotte Mason and make it Catholic. Our faith permeates everything, and we can take that Catholic Faith and make it part of everything we do, and learn, and live. That made me understand it better.
He also said that we are not held accountable for that which we do not know. I've heard Jimmy Aiken talk to people about that on Catholic Answers. My dh said we can only do our best. We can't possibly study and know every part of Catholic history, or Catholic doctrine in order to teach *perfectly* the faith. We don't need to. Our kids will learn so much more as they mature and grow. Ultimately, they will be responsible for their souls, and we are responsible for ours, our parents are not. I truly don't think we knowingly can lead our kids to stumble and choose evil. And I truly think it's very difficult for us unknowingly do it either, because God doesn't allow that to happen. One needs to purposefully decide and choose to do that.
I do think they can stumble or falter if others lead them astray purposefully. But we love our children/dh more than anything on this earth (other than God of course), and our heart would NEVER allow us to do that when our heart's true desire is to fully love God, and to do His will. I also think that we are much more likely to lead our children to stumble or falter in their faith not by teaching them something inaccurately, but more by our example. Our ACTIONS, I think, and how our children SEE our faith in action or the lack thereof, will carry much more weight in how they choose to live their faith.
I hope I've made myself more clear, Richelle. Again, I apologize that I misunderstood you, and I apologize that I hurt you. I would NEVER EVER do that purposefully! I hope that you understand that, and that I've been able to clarify what I meant. PLEASE DON'T stop asking questions! You're wonderful to stretch us in our faith! That is a great thing, because it keeps us on our toes, instead of sitting idly by, allowing us not to be fully focused on Him.
God bless you!
Tracy
__________________
Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
tovlo4801
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 28 2005
Location: Minnesota
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 386
|
| Posted: July 19 2005 at 10:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Tracy,
I'm so glad we've just misunderstood each other! Thank you for being so kind and forgiving of my over-reaction. I probably should have waited before posting, but then on the other hand if I had I would have never realized we'd just misunderstood each other.
I sincerely apologize for not being very clear myself. I certainly do have spiritual issues that I struggle with, but I had a feeling that there must have been some misunderstanding for such a strong response. 
I really appreciate your caring, thoughtful words and your kind presence.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
MicheleQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 23 2005
Location: Pennsylvania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2193
|
| Posted: July 20 2005 at 1:54am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Kathryn UK wrote:
I'm still confused . In the UK there doesn't seem to be any question of Catholic schools using Catholic texts for any subject other than religion. As far as I can establish, it isn't a matter of the texts not being there so having to make the best of what is available - it just isn't an issue.
I'm afraid I'm off on my own little rabbit trail here ... but I do wonder how much the interpretation of DIM varied (or varies?) between different provinces of the Church. |
|
|
Ah but I think your rabbit trail brings up a very good point Kathryn. Encyclicals are given for the whole Church and we are only examining it through our very narrow American lens.
Would interpretation really vary depending on where one lived? I would tend to think not as I have seen this pointed out in regards to those who say other encyclicals show the Church supports homeschooling in general (which I believe it does but because any particular encyclical addresses it). I have never ever seen this point addressed by those who promote the idea of Catholic books only. Are we to believe that only we privileged Americans would be the best educated because we can use strictly Catholic books? Gosh that seems rather arrogant to me.
God bless!
Disclaimer: It's 2:50 a.m. and I am up with a fussy child. Coherency on my part cannot be guaranteed. 
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
TracyQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1323
|
| Posted: July 20 2005 at 7:12am | IP Logged
|
|
|
MicheleQ wrote:
Disclaimer: It's 2:50 a.m. and I am up with a fussy child. Coherency on my part cannot be guaranteed.
|
|
|
ROFLOL Michele!
GREAT points you make here! Pretty great for 2:50 a.m.!!!
__________________
Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
TracyQ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: New York
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1323
|
| Posted: July 20 2005 at 7:13am | IP Logged
|
|
|
tovlo4801 wrote:
Tracy,
I really appreciate your caring, thoughtful words and your kind presence.
|
|
|
And I certainly appreciate your forgiveness, Richelle.
__________________
Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
Forum Locked) 
4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Divini Illius Magistri/real catholic educ
