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Kristie 4
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Double Wow!! Great article.
Thanks Willa, Jennifer, and the rest of you for the great insights. This balance between requiring things we believe are important (writing ability for ex.) and that time available for life and it's joys and discoveries is what I often find the greatest challenge of homeschooling. I am not saying that the 'musts' are not part of life, but I see here when there are too many of these 'academic type musts' we fizzle (my musts go in seasons- unfortunately (to quote someone of another forum) somedays my kids don't know whether they will wake to Charlotte Mason, a Latin Crazed Mama, or a complete unschooling enthusiast!)
For the record though, reading about all the limitless ideas etc. on the great blogs and forums and the like can be equally an issue at time- Mom can easily get excited about too many things, then more and more things...ad infinitim, until doing nothing looks way more appealing! 
Balance, balance, balance!! No black and white answers for how to achieve this in each unique home- for me, searching for God's leading (after trying to find direction in innumerable other places) is the best answer.
Love this thread...all of this has been so much on my mind of late.
Kristie
oneithersidetheriver.blogspot.com
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Mom to 3 boys and one spunky princess!!
A Walk in the Woods
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JuliaT
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I have been wrestling with this all year. School hasn't gone the way that I wanted it to go. So, through much reading and prayer, we have come upon a way that intermingles structure and child-led interest. My children love our learning time when it is carried out in this way. The structure time takes about one hour. The rest of the time is for choosing learning activities that they are interested in. I am pleasantly surprised at what is being chosen.
The other thing that is changing is that I am not using curriculum solely for our learning. I am using it as a resource for me, but then I present the information to my kids in a various different ways. I have been doing math this way for awhile. Now I am starting to do this with grammar as well.
Life has been very calm the past few months in doing school this way.
Blessings
Julia
mom to 3(7,6,4)
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Juliainsk
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Cay Gibson
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Kristie 4 wrote:
| This balance between requiring things we believe are important (writing ability for ex.) and that time available for life and it's joys and discoveries is what I often find the greatest challenge of homeschooling. I am not saying that the 'musts' are not part of life, but I see here when there are too many of these 'academic type musts' we fizzle (my musts go in seasons- unfortunately (to quote someone of another forum) somedays my kids don't know whether they will wake to Charlotte Mason, a Latin Crazed Mama, or a complete unschooling enthusiast!) |
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 Over here too.
I readily admit to be eclectic but to my children that's just another fancy word for e-d-u-c-a-t-i-o-n.
And this is what stubs me. I live for those free afternoons just like the children. When I'm in an unschooling mindframe, I'm thinking "Can we just do this all the time and get away with it? Is it really enough?"
And I so desire it to be.
But all the playing makes me remember that they will have to "work" in life...and school is "work"...and I start to get uneasy. I begin to fumble the ball.
I listen to a good hsing friend talk about their day and---in my mind---her children are so much brighter than mine and she spends more time doing school with her children so I expect her children to know more. In the meantime, she's admiring my children for their independence and things she doesn't see in her own children.
Kristie 4 wrote:
For the record though, reading about all the limitless ideas etc. on the great blogs and forums and the like can be equally an issue at time- Mom can easily get excited about too many things, then more and more things...ad infinitim, until doing nothing looks way more appealing!
Balance, balance, balance.
Kristie |
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I'm beginning to think my worries are coming from not keeping my eyes on my own work lately.  I talk a good talk, but I have to remind myself constantly of what I said.
JuliaT wrote:
| I have been wrestling with this all year. |
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I'm so glad so many of you wrote this. I don't feel quite so alone.
JuliaT wrote:
The other thing that is changing is that I am not using curriculum solely for our learning. I am using it as a resource for me, but then I present the information to my kids in a various different ways. I have been doing math this way for awhile. Now I am starting to do this with grammar as well.
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I love this, Julia. I usually purchase curriculum thinking the children have to use it...at least in part, to get my money's worth. When I use it more than they, I get nervous thinking, "Whose schooling is this anyway? I'm suppose to be teaching them ! Not myself!" 
But I'm thinking now, from what you wrote, that children really don't want to see the corporate desk or the corporate plans. Those guides, plans, and curriculums are OUR instruction sheets. Not theirs at all. They want to see it put to real life. How many times did we, do they ask, "When am I going to use this in real life?"
Learning shouldn't be a neatly prepped boardroom presentation because life is never like that! And the children know it. They're nobody's fool. That's why the schools aren't working today.
Now, preaching back to myself....
This morning I took out Chelsea's math and told her we needed to get busy with math. She looked at me in horror: "But you said we were going to do school differently."
Oh, yeah! I did say that.
Well, I wasn't prepared with our lapbook stuff so we went to the store to pick up folders and stickers and gel pens and card stock. (Remember, we've just been stuffing all our stuff into notebooks the past couple years ).
But when we returned home I told her to do her math while I took one of the dog's back to the vet. "But you said..."
I had to play the *mean* hsing mother. "I know what I said but you have to do math. Math stays. School will be different but math is a must."
"Even this summer?"
"Yes...though we'll do it a little differently this summer."
And we haven't done anything else.
Reading this morning.
Shopping.
Math.
And they've been playing in the yard with their cousins all afternoon.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
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MarilynW
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WJFR wrote:
My experience has been that children do usually end up designing their own curriculum by the teenage years. Even in my school days, I realize that though I went to school I simply ignored what I didn't want to learn and spent my extra time on things I did want to learn. My kids usually do some things they don't really enjoy, because they trust us to have good motives and reasons for our guidance, but they seem to "specialize" in certain areas of their own. What the Dorothy Sayers "trivium" model would call the "Rhetoric" stage of self-expression and development.
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I love all the posts. I have moved from wanting to follow the WTM at the beginning of my h/s journey to being a closet unschooler in many ways!! I try to get the balance between having a schedule and routine (and not being too rigid) and moving to the other extreme where I am am scared that we will not do enough. My older kids at 10 and 7 have already "written" their own curriculum for next year. I have not formally planned - but we know we are doing some kind of unit studies/trails on WW2, baseball, US States, Geology and lots of Liturgical year stuff. Ok - it is not a nice logical chronological progression - but my kids are very excited - which is half the battle won. I struggle with how much Math, LA and Latin we have to do.
This year I tried curriculum with the oldest and a fairly structured approach with the twins - but I am not convinced about the success. I am not sure how much they actually learned. But at least I learned about what does not work.
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Marilyn
Blessed with 6 gifts from God
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Cay Gibson
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I wanted to share this blog post by Lillian with all of you. I just read it and it helped me immensely:
Random Thoughts on HSing and Life
In part she writes:
"RANDOM THOUGHT#3
At the conference Andrew Pudewa shared that he had a dyslexic child and said he didn't think there was any magic curriculum pill. Whichever program was chosen, it just takes alot of hard work! But he did mention that he preferred one that used all the senses. But then he said something that was just what I needed to hear. This was in his talk entitled, "Motivating Boys and Other Children Who Would Rather be Building Forts."
Three Truths of Motivation
1. Children like to do what they CAN do.
2. Children want to do what they THINK they can do.
3. Children HATE to do and refuse to do anything they THINK they can't do.
His formula:
Start with what they can do first.
Spend 80% of your time on what they CAN do.
Spend 20% of your time on what they THINK they can do.
Spend 0% of your time on what they THINK they can't do.
He then said that we should help them too much!! As parents he sees that many want them to become independent in their schoolwork and so they don't help enough which actually prolongs the dependency. He says that if you offer to help them they will only let you if they need the help. Otherwise they will push you away and say they can do it on their own. You stop helping when they push you away.
There is more to read at the above link.
What odd though is his saying we "should help them (our children) TOO MUCH!!!
Yet I just read that Rachel Ray said no one ever showed her how to peel a potato. She had to work in the restaurant growing up and she was just told to "God peels potatoes."
Too much? Too little? Not enough? Who knows?
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Cay Gibson
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There's a quotable moment.
I meant to type "Go peel potatoes." 
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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marihalojen
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I'm rolling, Cay! That's great!
Now to step back to your questions...
Cay Gibson wrote:
marihalojen wrote:
You know I based a bit of what we've done this year on Tapestry of Grace. |
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This is unit study style. Right? |
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I would say it is more than that, it is a Classical Education based on the 4 year rotation of history written for large families so the mother can teach one topic at a time on the 4 levels, Lower and Upper Elem., Dialetic and Rhetoric.
Supposedly contains everything but science and foriegn language. Also they have the warning out (just like Cadron Creek and the Prairie Primer!) not to try and do everything, it's a rotation, we'll hit these topics again before the student graduates!
Cay Gibson wrote:
I am great with the planning and getting it on paper. My worry is that I'm not a great presenter of the material. That's why, when doing "Catholic Mosaic" all the plans and activities are simple. That's do-able for me.
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I'm finding myself stepping further and further away from the 'front' of the classroom, Marianna is becoming independent  Oh my! This is a head-whirling stage where I'm pushed away one moment and called back the next! I do find Andrew Pudewa's idea of helping too much rather mind boggling. Is it because my Mom and Dad went through a Robinson Curriculum Phase?
My middle school (in school) years were filled with lectures and notes and some group projects, when I was homeschooled it was filled with reading and writing and OLRStoo (pre-Robinson). So I've been thinking of how I want her middle school years to be. She is really big on checklists and plans and knowing what is coming up and that is why I've been browsing the TOG website again. Because she has. She likes this, can you believe it? But she also wants to do Redwall and Lord of the Rings while studying the Middle Ages and that sounds pretty cool to me. Why cram?
*sigh* I feel like a salesman for TOG and that is not what I intend. I also feel like I may be selling it to myself!  Maybe someone who has actually used it could stop in and say if I'm on target or not with that bit of an evaluation, remember I've just used parts of their free stuff as inspiration this year! Do I continue in this same comfy eclectic current next year? Or change it up, go white water rafting perhaps?  It must be Spring, everyone is thinking and planning and evaluating...though I wish God would come peel this potato of a problem for me.
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~Jennifer
Mother to Mariannna, age 13
The Mari Hal-O-Jen
SSR = Sailing, Snorkling, Reading
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Cay Gibson
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marihalojen wrote:
| I do find Andrew Pudewa's idea of helping too much rather mind boggling. |
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I did too until I went back and realized it's connected to his formula which says this:
Cay Gibson wrote:
His formula:
Start with what they can do first.
Spend 80% of your time on what they CAN do.
Spend 20% of your time on what they THINK they can do.
Spend 0% of your time on what they THINK they can't do.
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marihalojen wrote:
| I wish God would come peel this potato of a problem for me. |
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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lapazfarm
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marihalojen wrote:
| Or change it up, go white water rafting perhaps? |
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I vote for that! Can I interest you in a trip down the Nantahala? You can stay with us!I can just see Superboy and Marianna going over Nantahala falls in a two-man ducky!
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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JenniferS
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I am so glad you started this thread, Cay. I have been struggling with many of the same ideas. It is nice to know that I am not alone, and it is REALLY nice to read other's perspectives. It really helps, and this is the perfect time for me. I have summer to relax a bit and contemplate all of this.
Jen
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Leonie
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| Too much? Too little? Not enough? Who knows? |
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I don't.
But I do find that my kids like a challenge and that sometimes the challenges are set by me - yes, in schoolwork. And I can see that sometimes the challenge is not one they would choose, is not something that they are initially interested in - but it becomes an interest and part of who my kids are, over time.
So, my kids do a lot of learning on their own but I add to this learning - our own curriculum?
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Living Without School
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helene
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I like what Leonie said about her kids not initially being interested in the challenges she sets before them. What a great training for "real life"!! Most of our daily challenges- at work, at home, even at play- are not of our choosing. Acquiring the ability to dive in anyway and give it our all is an invaluable skill! Leonie is bringing up children who will be ready for anything and who will be able to make the best of any arduous task.
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Cay Gibson
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helene wrote:
| I like what Leonie said about her kids not initially being interested in the challenges she sets before them. What a great training for "real life"!! |
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See there! That brings me back to Step 1.
Perhaps I should keep our seatwork in the morning afterall.
Perhaps that's why my older ones are so industrious and carry their own weight.
Who know!!!
Back to my dilemmi...
Of course, perhaps the chore thing is what does this naturally? My children have always had chores and, like I believe I mentioned already, it is said that children do better in the real world if they've been expected to do chores at home.
Thanks to Jennifer's post announcing the Duggar's #17, I found this article by the mother, Michelle Duggar. I really like what she writes here:
"Our household runs smoothly because everyone pitches in. Each older child acts as a "buddy" to a younger one. In the morning, the older siblings make sure their younger buddies are changed, washed, and dressed. They watch over them at meals, help them with their schoolwork, and even put them down for naps. The older kids have other chores too, like cleaning the garage and helping prepare meals. We view chores as opportunities to serve the family -- and to serve God.
Our mornings are busy: I nurse the baby, get the kids breakfast, and then we come together for morning prayers. After that, the older kids might do schoolwork or practice the violin or piano. I do chores and try to keep the little ones occupied. In the afternoon, I conduct our school. We work on some subjects as a group, and I also give each child projects appropriate for his or her grade level. Our curriculum emphasizes character -- honesty, integrity, initiative, and responsibility. Our motto is "Joy" -- for Jesus first, others second, yourself last." ~ Michelle Duggar
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Willa
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Cay,
I experimented with "total" unschooling last spring and summer, but found it much more comfortable to have a bit of morning time to cover basics.
However, I have been pondering what it would look like if I set a time but not a content for studying, as it was described in the article Rebecca pasted (thanks Rebecca!).
This is something similar to what I got out of reading A Thomas Jefferson Education, and it also reminds me a bit of Natural Structure.
Could I lay out various options (this is talking about my middle children, ages 14 and 11 -- the younger ones seem to love working on whatever I will sit down and do with them [;-)] and the older ones are generally in charge of their own curriculum) and let them make choices... "freedom within limits" as in the Montessori method?
I will probably open up a separate thread to ask about this, if I decide it's worth a try, because the logistics are overwhelming to me -- I'm a dreamer, not a doer 
But summer might be a good time to experiment. Start with an hour for focused but "free" study and then if it works, move up from there to more time during the fall.
It occurs to me that I did something like this with my oldest son, Liam -- it was structured in that we were both invested in a quite classical curriculum, but free in that he could choose what he was going to work on each day.... perhaps a bit like Theresa does with SUperboy, but not project oriented, because Liam was a different type.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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Rachel May
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WJFR wrote:
| the logistics are overwhelming to me -- I'm a dreamer, not a doer |
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This is me in a nutshell. I have many ideas and lists and papers about what we'd like to do next year, but going from "curriculum" to "lesson plan" daunts me.
I remember Theresa saying once that at the end of the year she asks her son what he liked and what he didn't so she can take this into consideration when planning the next year. Does anyone else do this? I was thinking it is a nice bridge between "Mom observing, thinking and planning" to "child observing, thinking, and planning" education. (BTW, it's also very military. Everything must have an "AAR-After Action Review".)
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Rachel
Thomas and Anthony (10), Maria (8), Charles (6), Cecilia (5), James (3), and Joseph (1)
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marihalojen
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lapazfarm wrote:
marihalojen wrote:
| Or change it up, go white water rafting perhaps? |
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I vote for that! Can I interest you in a trip down the Nantahala? You can stay with us!I can just see Superboy and Marianna going over Nantahala falls in a two-man ducky! |
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 Two thumbs up for that idea, Theresa!
Rachel May wrote:
| I remember Theresa saying once that at the end of the year she asks her son what he liked and what he didn't so she can take this into consideration when planning the next year. Does anyone else do this? I was thinking it is a nice bridge between "Mom observing, thinking and planning" to "child observing, thinking, and planning" education. (BTW, it's also very military. Everything must have an "AAR-After Action Review".) |
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I must remember this Rachel May, AAR - After Action Review, that'll help in talking with dh! A little militaristic lingo clears the air in amazing ways, the last helpful one I learned was CPM - Critical Path Methods. 
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~Jennifer
Mother to Mariannna, age 13
The Mari Hal-O-Jen
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marcie
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This is a great topic! I am finishing my second year of homeschooling and still trying to find what works......looks like I am in great company!!! It's comforting to know that the very people I come to for inspiration also struggle.......who would have known!
I feel as though I would like to unschool and I think that most of the time it's what we do, but, I, myself, need structure. My ds can just roll with the flow. He is happy as a clam when I get distracted and he can build with his Starwars Legos all day!
I agree with Willa about being a dreamer, not a doer. I get so many great ideas from everyone and think to myself, "Ohhhhhh..I want to do that!!!" My printer goes 90 to nothing and I have tons of printed out sheets with wonderful ideas. Then..it happens...........I can't seem to get it together.
So, once again, I am benefiting from all of this great information. I will just need to order more ink and get more copy paper!
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Marcie Melancon
New Iberia, LA
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JuliaT
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Willa, we have been doing school in the way that you described for the last two months. Now, my kids are younger than yours, but it's working out so well.
Our learning time starts with Bible and read aloud. Then I do math with my dd. This is a given every day. Then I do a different subject each day. One day might be history, another day might be an art lesson, the next day might be for mythology. This time is mostly reading. If there is an activity to go along with the reading, I tell my dd about it and let her decide if she wants to do the activity. Some weeks, if I'm really on the ball, I will have the materials in a basket and leave it out so she can do it whenever she wants. That doesn't happend too often, though. I'm not that organized.
After her structured time, then she is able to do whatever she would like but it has to do with learning. My dd loves imaginative play. She would fill up her time with this 24/7. After lunch is time for imaginative play. Before lunch is time for learning. She has one shelf that has various things that she can choose from. On the shelf are DrawWriteNow books, Minimus, some FIAR picture books, some craft kits and science experiment books. I also put games on her shelf as well. She can chose from the shelf or from things that I have strewn about the house. Right now she is interested in writing stories, so a great deal of her time is in doing this.
While dd is having her learning time, then I spend time with my ds doing his math, reading and read aloud. Then he gets to choose from his shelf. Then I spend some time with my youngest. So they all get structured time and free learning time.
I have just finished reading Home Companion by the DeMilles (who wrote TJE) and Diane Jeppson. This book is more detailed about how to implement TJE in your home. I appreciated reading how to start your children planning what they would like to learn for the year. It is also discussed in this book how to break down the year long plans into monthly plans and then into daily plans. The child is given a planner so she can learn organizational skills. Also, the child is to write in her commonplace book (journal) of something she has learned that day. This is to be done every day. I really liked that idea.
I think your idea is definitely do-able.
Blessings,
Julia
mom to 3(7,6,4)
http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/Juliainsk
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Erin
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Rachel May wrote:
| I remember Theresa saying once that at the end of the year she asks her son what he liked and what he didn't so she can take this into consideration when planning the next year. Does anyone else do this? I was thinking it is a nice bridge between "Mom observing, thinking and planning" to "child observing, thinking, and planning" education. (BTW, it's also very military. Everything must have an "AAR-After Action Review".) |
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Rachel,
I am always asking my dc to reflect and evaluate. Some are more reflective than others. At the end of every term (ten weeks) I will sit with each child and write what they liked that we did, what they didn't and what they want to do. Now we don't always get to their wants in the short term but I know what interests them and hopefully we do at some stage.
The positive of this is that the dc have an enormous say in what we do, their compromising is that there are several of them and as we work on interest areas collectively then they have to participate to a siblings interest as well as investigate their own.
The downside? Well it means that I have raised very strong willed opinonated dc who won't easily do what mum wants regards their learning they want to know the 'why' of something before they accept the necessity of some subjects.
On a practical note how does this make our day look? We have seat work that is set by me. We have for years done the looser approach with the consequence of some big holes in areas of language arts. I was always firmer regards maths. We still only use textbooks for maths. Our learning always has and continues to be literature based. Seatwork consists of LA and maths. We then break and come back for religion, at present we are reading St Patrick's Summer and our 'interest' reading. We tend to need large chunks of time on a 'topic'. So therefore we may spend three/four weeks on 'subject areas'(history, scinece and geography) on a rotation basis. The dc are sick of history at present so we have ditched it  and are concentrating on science. Their choice and they have chosen to learn about reptiles. Soo interesting and not btw 'my' interest area at all. But there you go I am interested in spite of myself
So the bridge in our case is that the dc often chose what they are interested in and mum gathers the resources together and outlines a general skeleton of what we will do.
Leonie wrote:
| But I do find that my kids like a challenge and that sometimes the challenges are set by me - yes, in schoolwork. And I can see that sometimes the challenge is not one they would choose, is not something that they are initially interested in - but it becomes an interest and part of who my kids are, over time. |
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And like Leonie, sometimes it is an area that they may not think of on their own so I will introduce them to it. Broadening their horizons so to speak
However if my dc are really not interested it won't work but then they have so many areas of interest they usually come up with something they are interested in.
Dd 13 has complete control of what she studies now within a framework. Except for her LA that one is still being driven by mum
So the bridge is always a balance, and I am constantly having to challenge myself, is this really needed? If not and there is no interest what is the point as I agree strongly with CM that they are 'educated by their intimacies'. If it is needed and the current way of presenting is not working then what way could work, a constant litany in my head is 'there are more ways to skin a cat'. Not really literate I know but apt.
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Erin
Faith Filled Days
Seven Little Australians
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lapazfarm
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Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
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| Posted: May 05 2007 at 8:59pm | IP Logged
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I am loving this thread! I find it fascinating to read how others approach this balancing act!
I do sit down with ds and ask his opinions on how things are going. Usually quarterly. More often if I sense things are not going well.
The only subject I require to be done a certain way is math. The rest of the day he chooses what he wants to learn. He can choose from a project I have designed, he can tweak one to his liking, or he can do something entirely different. As long as he is working on something. Sometimes this will be a subject I suggest, as Leonie says. He does need to stretch. But most often I find us enough alike that he enjoys my suggestions as much as his own ideas.
I do require that if he chooses a project then he must do quality work and take it to completion. This is why our talks are so important. He *knows* from experience that I take his suggestions seriously and *will* follow through with materials, project plans, resources, trips, etc. If he says he wants to learn about Bonsai, or pirates, or dragons then that is exactly what we will do! So he has learned to put a lot of thought into his suggestions! He also knows that once he has done a project satisfactorily, he can move on to something else if he feels like he’s had enough, or keep going in the same vein for as long as he wishes. This is where I see the discipline issue addressed. I don’t believe that he has to sit down to unpleasant seatwork to learn that life lesson. He can do what he wants. He just has to do it well.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Designing Curriculum
