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chicken lady
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Bridget wrote:
So, if we put aside college vs. non-college for now, what would our dream lady's education look like?
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I would be dreaming I could follow this thread 
Everyone has such great and wonderful points, you have my head swimming Of course that is east to do, just the same thanks Cay for the good discussion  Now I am going to an easier thread to follow, you are all to smart for me
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Natalia
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In conversations like this I always feel that I am in a big room with a lot of people, everybody talking at once. It is difficult to know who to respond to. Sometimes I just pick something that sparked a thought.
When I talked about fear I wasn't talking about your post in particular, Rebecca. The thought that was going to my mind is the fact that fear of the world should never be our guiding principle. Maybe I was stating the obvious. I don't think that anybody here was saying that we shouldn't send our kids to college because they are afraid. But my own reaction to the VT tragedies was" We will homeschool college". Fear is real and sometimes hidden and difficult to recognize as the motives behind our decisions. As you see I just went into a tangent that is just how my mind works I am sorry if you felt misunderstood. It wasn't my intention. 
Natalia
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 25 2007 at 10:04pm | IP Logged
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chicken lady wrote:
Bridget wrote:
So, if we put aside college vs. non-college for now, what would our dream lady's education look like?
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I would be dreaming I could follow this thread
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How refreshing humble and dear you are!
Taffy wrote:
| Tina, I share these exact thoughts as well. I wanted to become a veterinarian when I finished high school. I KNOW that there's no way I could have learned what I did in my university courses on my own. |
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I did want to come back to this and say that there are lots of children who want this job.  And, of course, this is in leagues with a doctor (specially those meticulous brain surgeons). You have to have hands-on training. We all know that. No question about it.
But what about the child who will not become the vet? Who won't go to vet school...who can't make the grades, raise the tuition, endure the long years, or withstand the years of study with no income?
What about those children...the children who won't become doctors and lawyers and engineers? Do we just click our teeth and let them fall through the cracks and not give them alternatives to pursue something God has placed upon their hearts?
On this one I have my niece as a real-life example and an example of learning outside the college campus. Megan has been hsing through high school. She gets her education at...you guessed it! the library! She lives nearby and checks out books and DVDs and takes advantage of all the hands-on workshops and the lectures offered by real authors, real professors, real authorities in their field.
She always wanted to be a vet but finally realized that her math and science wasn't strong enough to cut the course. Please understand that I'm not saying she couldn't do it if she wants it badly enough but she decided not to fret and stress and, instead, found a nitch for herself that she is quite happy with.
She has worked at the animal shelter part-time in addition to her library studies. For her senior year of high school, she wants to work at the library part-time and at a vet's office part-time. There she will get the exposure and hands-on learning she needs to become a vet's assistant. Working there also offers her a grant, which I don't remember all the specifics she told me, but she will be able to go to a two-yr animal clinic (like a school) and learn some vet skills. She won't become a full-fledged vet through this program but she'll have something under her belt that will help her to do the work she loves and pursue her care of God's creatures.
ANd, who knows, she might just go on to become a vet. One nevers knows.
Or...she might decide to work in the library system instead. She gets her love of books from me...her godmother.
And if she decides to become a wife and mother? Well, hey! there's always that pet grooming business I mentioned in an earlier post.
I'm proud of her. She's focused and she has something she is intent on doing. Children coming out of the schools just don't always have this self-assurance or self-guidance.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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amyable
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Bridget wrote:
| So, if we put aside college vs. non-college for now, what would our dream lady's education look like? Either for ourselves or our daughters. Pretend they would be happy to follow our lead as young adult women. |
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Coffee Wife has a post up today that describes some things her friend came up with as "essential qualities of a lady:"
Quote:
A Lady is:
-Gentle in thought and deed
-Moderate
-Beautiful in her strength
-Healthy in body and mind
-Modest
-Well spoken
-Accomplished in the arts
-Knowledgeable and curious about her world
-Self sufficient
-Faithful |
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I want a "Lady's Eduction" that teaches me to be all these things.
PLUS, I would really love if someone would teach me the finer points of homemaking...things like "What Is Airing Out the Bed and Why I Should Do It (If I Should Do It At All)?" "Spices and What They Are Good For" and "The Fine Art of Organizing Tiny Cupbords When You Don't Even Have A Pantry"
You know what I would love? Some kind of girl's college that acted as BOTH a college where one could get a B.A. AND a "finishing school" sort of place where the finer arts of being a lady, wife, and/or homemaker would be taught and upheld as the beautiful, honorable thing that they are. Catholic, of course.
__________________
Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Mary G
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| Posted: April 26 2007 at 8:09am | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
You know what I would love? Some kind of girl's college that acted as BOTH a college where one could get a B.A. AND a "finishing school" sort of place where the finer arts of being a lady, wife, and/or homemaker would be taught and upheld as the beautiful, honorable thing that they are. Catholic, of course. |
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I'm with you but do you think they'd let an over-40 matriculate?
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MaryG
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amyable
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Mary G wrote:
amyable wrote:
You know what I would love? Some kind of girl's college that acted as BOTH a college where one could get a B.A. AND a "finishing school" sort of place where the finer arts of being a lady, wife, and/or homemaker would be taught and upheld as the beautiful, honorable thing that they are. Catholic, of course. |
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I'm with you but do you think they'd let an over-40 matriculate? |
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But of course! Many colleges these days have an "older students returning to school with life experience" program.  And since this is all just my own little hopeful fantasy, I can make it whatever I want.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 26 2007 at 8:17am | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
Quote:
A Lady is:
-Healthy in body and mind
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All of the qualities are in our control...except this one.
Sure, we can exercise and eat healthy but how much control do we really have for this one? Sure, we can "educate" ourselves on various illnesses that plague our households. We can "educate" ourselves on the various childhood allergies, learning disorders, etc. We can study healthy ways of cooking.
What happens when our health spirals downward through no fault of our own? What happens if we become a suffering soul?
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Mary G
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| Posted: April 26 2007 at 8:19am | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
Coffee Wife has a post up today that describes some things her friend came up with as "essential qualities of a lady:"
Quote:
A Lady is:
-Gentle in thought and deed
-Moderate
-Beautiful in her strength
-Healthy in body and mind
-Modest
-Well spoken
-Accomplished in the arts
-Knowledgeable and curious about her world
-Self sufficient
-Faithful |
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Looking through this list you realize that this is not what the secular world has been preaching for the past 30 years to women. We're taught that being modest, gentle in thought and deed, moderate and faithful are weaknesses. I was in undergrad in the early 80s and went on for an MBA in the late 80s (I worked in between) ... I was climbing the corporate ladder at Delta and thought I was doing all the right things....my kids were in daycare (after staying home with them the prescribed 6 weeks -- I'm so sad about this now) ... but I was living the American dream and climbing that corporate ladder. YUCK!
This is why I really like Alice vonHildebrand's book, The Privilege of Being a Woman because she pulls out the secular mumbo-jumbo and places womanhood in the context of the way God wants us to live our lives. I did a review of this book for Canticle recently and was hard-pressed to keep my praise to 250 words! Another great one to read is Genevieve Kineke's book, The Authentic Catholic Woman which has a forward by Christopher West (which I thought was a mistake, but no one asked my opinion  ). This too is a good read.
Hildebrand's book should be required reading for all teenage girls and guys!
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MaryG
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 26 2007 at 8:21am | IP Logged
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Rebecca and anyone else who may have been hurt by my post: I did want to apologize for the inadvertant way my post ended up and explain. I think and type at the same time (and was wordy, too) so when I posted, I had no idea that there were quite a few posts added between when I had read posts and when I posted. The way my post ended up juxtaposed to new posts I had not even seen yet may have made it appear like I was responding specifically to someone - especially when I said that you cannot know what will happen when your children are 6, 7, 8 yo. I was not addressing anyone specifically as those posts I seemed to be responding to were not up on the board when I wrote and posted - just sharing my own reflections on my own experience. I will say this is a real limit of internet communication.
I did want to clarify that I was really only making a few points (and probably should have done so with so much more brevity).
When my children were young, I very much protected them. I did not want exposure to a lot of ugliness. I wanted to protect their innocence, and I was very much conscious of this. The world and college do seem like an ugly place at times and we all look at the total reality. At the time college seemed a frightening prospect but one we simply knew might or might not be out there when our children were older. We listened to the debates in our community but reserved final judgement in terms of any set good/bad and like everyone here we continue to recognize the college decision as one of prudence that parents will guide for or against for individual children based on discernment and prudence in the given circumstances. Knowing that ours were still so young, that we were seeking God's will, etc., we simply pondered all these things and tried to look at the children and their budding interests. I think that both our protection and our listening to the debates were healthy things. We knew we were seeking God's will, we had many real things to ponder - and we took a wait and see attitude without any declarations to children other than that college was out there, it wasn't obligatory to anyone in our family, both my dh and I had gone and benefitted but that things had gotten uglier, that they did not have to feel like we would push them out the door at age 18 - ie we tried to keep things very generic and open and make sure they knew they did have options -many and that God would have to be the guiding source in any decisions to be made. I suspect this is very agreed upon on the board - by everyone whether sharing positive or negative reflections on college. I really want people to know that I am not, nor would I ever, criticize anyone for "protectiveness". We were so labeled that way ourselves at times (not by anyone on this board, btw). People were genuinely shocked when our dd went to college - and at a secular University. They are also shocked that she has had a very easy time of it - and really is well adjusted.
The funny thing is, though, that God is so full of surprises when it comes to our children - but at the same time he grants great peace when they are led to unexpected paths. Fear is not a good place from which to make a choice, but I don't think anyone would deny that it is prudent to know the very real ugliness ahead of time. I think that everyone here sharing that aspect was reminding us to discern carefully. I know my caution led us to do some real good investigation work and find things (like a decent dorm) we might have missed otherwise. It is also good to know that raising children in a protected way focused on the will of God, on prayer, on the graces and Sacraments, with modesty and restraint, courtesy and consideration with responsibility for their own actions - does in fact prepare them to be "in the world but not of it." It does not take allowing them to read everything, or go to things you deem ill advised, etc. or exposing them to every sin to make them equipped to deal with the world. God really does help when you are in the midst of making the decision. Being realistically aware of the environment and circumstances are part of prudential judgement - as is prayer, recognition of financial and factors, as well as the interests and inclinations of the child. We carefully tried to keep doors open by our academic course of study at home - and by our careful teaching of home skills and by consciously seeking out religious in habit for our dd to get to know - surrounding them with opportunities for God to show them where he lead, basically.
As parents we guide or children but gradually have less and less final decision making authority - ie children must chose the vocation or adult path for their lives and if you have taught them to seek God's will and they have the gift from the Holy Spirit of prudence, they will and do seek out your advice and guidance in the process. We certainly asked a lot of good questions as this time came about. I hope it is comforting to know that God leads parents and children together if we remain open, which I think is one of the real beauties of women here.
What is a Lady's education. Well, I know some of the skills I wished I'd known - meal planning, cooking, efficient cleaning and home management. I wish I knew how to arrange flowers in a vase, chose colors for my home, arrange and make a home beautiful. These are things I wish I'd sought out in addition to my college education - it just never occured to me even though I knew I always wanted to be wife and mother - and these would have served me well even if I'd become a nun or been single. We do the best we can to help our dd find these skills - and for our sons we do want them to know how to cook, clean up after themselves and do a load of laundry. Our dd assists at times in other work - and especially my dh does at least want them to know a few basics of car maintenance and repair (not that he wants them to do any car repairs - just have a clue when something needs to be addressed). It really is a basic safety issue (and a reminder to us that our dd needed to know this and be consciously taught this when I had to take the car to the gas station once recently and couldn't remember how to fill it up, it had been so long ).
But I am looking forward to seeing many responses as I know that a Lady's education runs much deeper than skills to have. I do think a good starting place is modesty (something we spoke about from very early days), gentleness, restraint, consideration and compassion for others. I really think a lot of the values involved in Christian living apply and develop a young lady into a young lady.
Janet
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ALmom
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Oh, if I could dream - I'd personally love to have my talented dds at home helping me . I could certainly use the help. I always said my dream was to always be surrounded by babies - so now that I don't seem to be having anymore ... Of course this is not in God's plan for my children at the moment so the reality is that I am happy for them to find God's path and then proud of the way they follow it.
Janet
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Angie Mc
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Great topic and discussion, all! Phew...I'm glad I had a few extra minutes to read this morning.
Rebecca, I have really appreciated your contributions and your fresh voice (fresh as in getting-to-know-you, a new voice) as well as the other fresh voices here. Now this doesn't imply that others have stale voices, right? This exchange is a wonderful example of the atmosphere of respect that we hope to foster here. Thank you all for your lively contributions and for giving us much to consider.
Mary G wrote:
Whenever I've tried to let God lead ... all has worked out in the long run, better than I ever thought it could; whenever I've tried to rely on my education or myself or my own determination (without including God int he equation), things have gone catty-wampus ...
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Catty-wampus ?! Oh my, Mary! This wonderfully deep conversation has brought me a new term...catty-wampus. That's funny.
Love
__________________
Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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Mary G
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Angie Mc wrote:
Mary G wrote:
Whenever I've tried to let God lead ... all has worked out in the long run, better than I ever thought it could; whenever I've tried to rely on my education or myself or my own determination (without including God int he equation), things have gone catty-wampus ...
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Catty-wampus ?! Oh my, Mary! This wonderfully deep conversation has brought me a new term...catty-wampus. That's funny.
Love |
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Angie, you really need to get out more -- that's an oldie!
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MaryG
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my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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JennGM
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Mary G wrote:
Angie Mc wrote:
Mary G wrote:
Whenever I've tried to let God lead ... all has worked out in the long run, better than I ever thought it could; whenever I've tried to rely on my education or myself or my own determination (without including God int he equation), things have gone catty-wampus ...
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Catty-wampus ?! Oh my, Mary! This wonderfully deep conversation has brought me a new term...catty-wampus. That's funny.
Love |
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Angie, you really need to get out more -- that's an oldie! |
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It is an oldie...I always said/spelled it "caddywampus". I usually use it when my son's pants are not on straight.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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EmilyK
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I'm new to this forum, but am very interested in this topic. I've pondered this for several years. After reading some of the posts, I think my real concern is "career-mindedness" in young women.
I went to college - bounced between majors, took only the classes I liked. I worked to pay my own way & lived at home - so I didn't ring up a big debt. It's very true, all young people, but especially our young men, need to know where their interests lie & then have good coursework counseling.
I hope my kids go to college - esp. my little boy. It is important for males to be able to provide for a family. I hope my daughter goes to college too, but I don't want her to get so caught up in a career that it would prevent her from staying home with her children, when the time comes.I have an in-law that has so much medical school debt, she would never be able to stay home with her little guy. She isn't "free" to.
Just my rambling thougths,
Emily
Mom to Sophia (3.5) & Will (14 mo)
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Mary G
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Emily -- thanks for posting your thoughts. They very much mesh with mine. I was such a product of the 80s! Career and motherhood were supposed to be both obtainable goals but when it came right down to it, I felt that I wasn't being fair to either "side".
I guess what I keep coming back to is the need to let God guide not only me and dh but also my children....especially as they reach maturity. They need to find their own way and I can't dictate to them (altho I will start rosaries, novenas and candle-lighting to ensure that they always do the good).....
I had a priest tell me once that my kids are not MINE, they are only on loan from God and at some point I MUST allow my kids to exercise their free-will and do God's will (hopefully). And, please God, may they not make the same mistakes I did when I was younger!
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MaryG
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Angie Mc
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Welcome, Emily. Glad to have you here!
Yes, the idea that meeting our vocation responsibilities is primary and inter-related to meeting work-related goals has been helpful when discussing this topic with our children.
Love,
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Angie Mc
Maimeo to Henry! Dave's wife, mom to Mrs. Devin+Michael Pope, Aiden 20,Ian 17,John Paul 11,Catherine (heaven 6/07)
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meaculpa365
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This is deep water but i'm going to jump in!
Cay, I have a dd, who graduated in Nov. from high school. She is not a good or even interested student, so she has decided that an academic college is not for her. I ofetn worry about her-will she be doomed because she dosen't want to go to college.
But she is taking a class in hair 'styling' at the local uni. So for her, it was a matter of a specific kind of education. I think you mentioned trade school options for your ds. When I began homeschooling I remember reading about a family where the parents encouraged the DC to persue some type of hands on work-I think they talked about watch repairs! The point was to find a job that is specalized, requires apprenticeship but would be easy to do in a home situation.
I think many teens who aren't in 'need' of college degrees can & will be successful in fuffiling their vocations by simply being Catholic average Joes/Janes.
Our experience (both my Dh & I worked part-time & attended 2 yrs of community college)was that college education is good & usefull in some areas. But my DH has built an excellent career by simply being the guy in the office who learns & teaches himself new technology in his field. He's always the loan non-engineer! Ditto my own 'career' as an educator-if they gave degrees based on the number of educational philoshpy books read, i'd have several.
Getting back to my dds situation, she sometimes feels that she dosen't measure up w/ her more brainy siblings (oldest sis finishing freshman yr at Southern Catholic & next oldest bro starting to think about which colleges he'll apply to) & feeling that familia pressure from extended family who just assume she'll want to go to college.
As many of you shared, there is a overwhelming expectation from society that the ladies should go to college & then use that education-but *not* to just be a homemaker!
I love the idea of an education that would teach life skills. Have any of you, in an effort to give your dds a Ladies Education used a particular resource? I am thinking of Pilgrims of the Holy Family or the Life Skills book that Emmanuel sells? I have looked at a Protestant book-whose name escapes me, that proposed a basic homemakers /Ladies Education. Unfortunatly for my budget it also used many resource books, so I felt overwhelmed in trying to implement it. But perhaps one of these other texts would give structure to a Ladies Education?
Enjoying this discussion greatly-Pam in Au JMJ
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Mary G
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meaculpa365 wrote:
This is deep water but i'm going to jump in!
Cay, I have a dd, who graduated in Nov. from high school. She is not a good or even interested student, so she has decided that an academic college is not for her. I ofetn worry about her-will she be doomed because she dosen't want to go to college.
But she is taking a class in hair 'styling' at the local uni. So for her, it was a matter of a specific kind of education. I think you mentioned trade school options for your ds. When I began homeschooling I remember reading about a family where the parents encouraged the DC to persue some type of hands on work-I think they talked about watch repairs! The point was to find a job that is specalized, requires apprenticeship but would be easy to do in a home situation.
I think many teens who aren't in 'need' of college degrees can & will be successful in fuffiling their vocations by simply being Catholic average Joes/Janes.
Our experience (both my Dh & I worked part-time & attended 2 yrs of community college)was that college education is good & usefull in some areas. But my DH has built an excellent career by simply being the guy in the office who learns & teaches himself new technology in his field. He's always the loan non-engineer! Ditto my own 'career' as an educator-if they gave degrees based on the number of educational philoshpy books read, i'd have several.
Getting back to my dds situation, she sometimes feels that she dosen't measure up w/ her more brainy siblings (oldest sis finishing freshman yr at Southern Catholic & next oldest bro starting to think about which colleges he'll apply to) & feeling that familia pressure from extended family who just assume she'll want to go to college.
As many of you shared, there is a overwhelming expectation from society that the ladies should go to college & then use that education-but *not* to just be a homemaker!
I love the idea of an education that would teach life skills. Have any of you, in an effort to give your dds a Ladies Education used a particular resource? I am thinking of Pilgrims of the Holy Family or the Life Skills book that Emmanuel sells? I have looked at a Protestant book-whose name escapes me, that proposed a basic homemakers /Ladies Education. Unfortunatly for my budget it also used many resource books, so I felt overwhelmed in trying to implement it. But perhaps one of these other texts would give structure to a Ladies Education?
Enjoying this discussion greatly-Pam in Au JMJ
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Pam -- this is an excellent post! Thanks so much for jumping in. Have you looked at CHC's High School of Your Dreams looks at high school from the view that EVERYONE doesn't want to, need to or have to go to college. It's a way of tracking student interests and filling in the "boxes" so that your student gets a full high school education, but not necessarily only college prep.....
My dh and I have always told the kids that when they grad from high school they're adults -- they can do whatever they want (as long as it's moral ) and we'll respect those decisions. They know that if they want to go to college, they will pay for it themselves (not that we won't help them when necessary, but if they want it that bad, they'll find a way). We want them to take over ownership and direction of their lives. We'll always be there "in case", but they also need to be able to feel free to do what THEY want, not what we want them to be -- other than we'd like them to remain Catholic and morally upstanding, acting with charity and love for all.
__________________
MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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Tina P.
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| Posted: April 28 2007 at 4:32pm | IP Logged
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Mary G wrote:
| Angie, you really need to get out more -- that's an oldie! |
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I think it's a Basque thing, Angie. I never heard of it before, either. Oh, an Jenn, you must have some Basque blood somewhere down the line as well, eh?
Mary G wrote:
| I had a priest tell me once that my kids are not MINE, they are only on loan from God and at some point I MUST allow my kids to exercise their free-will and do God's will (hopefully). And, please God, may they not make the same mistakes I did when I was younger! |
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Amen to all you said, Mary! I could not have said what we both agree more succintly.
God bless,
__________________
Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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Tina P.
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Joined: June 28 2005
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| Posted: April 28 2007 at 4:47pm | IP Logged
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Mary G wrote:
| Have you looked at CHC's High School of Your Dreams looks at high school from the view that EVERYONE doesn't want to, need to or have to go to college. It's a way of tracking student interests and filling in the "boxes" so that your student gets a full high school education, but not necessarily only college prep.... |
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Mary do you use this program? Do you like it? We're resarching what we want to do for high shcool. My oldest boy turns 13 this summer. I figured I would have the kids do MODG because it's (*gulp* please don't throw tomatoes) accredited. I would love a discussion, ~ maybe I should start a new thread? ~ comparing the two or discussing what you ~ meaning *all* of you who homeschool through high school ~ use for high school?
__________________
Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
Mary's Muse
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: A Lady's Education
