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asplendidtime
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| Posted: April 25 2007 at 5:12pm | IP Logged
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Oh wow! I cannot believe I was so misunderstood in this discussion. I am really embarassed.  I did write two posts. In both posts I said I would definitely support my dc's choice to go to College. I brought up the financial problems, I didn't notice anyone mention this before I did. I know lots of lady's who have to "put off having dc because their dh's want them to pay back their student loans".
AND I gave a Saintly woman with a Phd as an example of godliness.
.... I am so sorry I offended. Some of you are so busy agreeing with each other and deciding that I am really against you, I feel you have misused my words and taken them out of context.  I never said that there was anything wrong with working in a sawmill,  but it was a kind of ridiculous example as few of us will ever even live near a sawmill, so saying that it was a rough alternative to College was extreme.
Oh my... 
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asplendidtime
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| Posted: April 25 2007 at 5:19pm | IP Logged
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So saying that children should discern their vocations and try to give their best to God... Or give Him the first chance is like burying my head in the sand and not really giving them a chance to make their own decisions...
you have all put words in my mouth and attributed thoughts to me that I did not imply.
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JennGM
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| Posted: April 25 2007 at 5:24pm | IP Logged
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Rebecca, I've said this privately and I'll say it publicly. I wasn't singling you out, and I don't think anyone is. Your post was the last one, but it echoed many other ones on this thread. No one is accusing you personally of anything. Perhaps reread the thread. I merely quoted you so that others can follow along, but it's merely to continue a discussion, no single you out.
I apologize if this was done in a way that you felt singled out.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 25 2007 at 5:31pm | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
| I know I'm totally being devil's advocate here, and I don't mean to attack....please don't take it personally! |
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Since I started this discussion I think I need to smooth out a few bumps.
I hear each one of us saying "College is not for everybody" so I think, generally speaking, we're all on the same page of dialogue.
First of all, I am not offended by anyone or anything that has been said. I'm hardly ever offended and, no, that does not make me a saint.  It's just my personality. I grew up being pushed around by an older brother. I had a dominate mother. My dh and I are both nonconfrontational-type people. God sent me little ones to teach me how to speak up...for them and for myself. I live for peace in my homelife and the world at large. I can't stand strife or disagreements so I try to understand the situation when I see it because I just don't understand it.
Also, if I sound frustrated, my frustration is NOT at any one of you. It is at myself for not being able to get my point across or make myself clear. That's all.
I love a good discussion and I know this discussion can be just that...good and fruitful...because I know the ladies here. I love and respect you all and welcome your input and opinions. Please keep them coming!!! 
I also want to say that if I sound contradicting at any point it's because I do contradict myself...regularly...because I don't feel that (and I know better than to assume that) my way is the "right" way for others. My way might not even be the "right" way for my children and that's what I try to guard against.
AS far as exposure to real life, sometimes I feel more liberal about the exposure I allow my children than other parents, mainly because I prefer that they are exposed to the outside world under my guidance and teachings than thrown into it without a safety net.
My dh and I have always spoken to our children about what they want out of their schooling. My older two have gone in and out of the school system. I do hope my oldest dd gets a college degree. I support her wholeheartedly. But I look at different people in my extended family and at our friends and see that the ones who are supporting the family above the "educated" ones of us who went to college, happen to be the ones without college degrees. What's with that?
That isn't what society says is suppose to happen. College degrees are suppose to equal lots of money and success. Degrees are suppose to open the world to you. I know several people who have not been able to make a living despite having a college education. A forest ranger with a degree in forestry, a horticulturist with a degree in horticulture, an educator, a television camera man with a degree in communications, a probation officer with a degree in criminal justice. Perhaps that is just Louisiana. I don't know.
And, thinking of the recent mention of book study; I think, from something I just read in More Coffee with Nonna is that people who go to college are usually the ones geared towards book learning and paper work in the first place. It's in their blood, their system, their DNA.
But is a college degree the only way to prove that hsing works? Perhaps that's the question to ask. If the Colfax boys of "HSing for Excellence" had not all gone to Harvard, would their hsing example be as glossy and high-profile? I think not.
What's wrong with this picture?
JennGM wrote:
I just get fired up about this subject. I love the idea of a Lady's education, but I do see advantages of a liberal arts or great books degree or solid college education. It is a time that society sets aside, that gives you this sacred time. I said it before...it's a luxury. It's not a necessity, nor is it the only way...but it does make it easier if a person uses it to their best advantage!
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Agreed! And I've never heard it worded this way. You write the "truth" here, Jenn, and it is well put. "...a time that society sets aside, that gives you this sacred time." I  it and can already hear myself repeating this to my children. 
Now I'm hitting send...after multiple interruptions. It probably took me two hours to type this and I'm not lying.
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Cay Gibson
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Taffy
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I also didn't mean to single anyone out and apologize if any were offended. I'm sorry if the sawmill example was outrageous, simply my own experience and was meant to be an example. You can choose to substitute oil rig, mine, pig farm, feedlot, armed forces or whatever "unfeminine" or rough working environment you so choose. I didn't mean to offend anyone and, again, apologize if I did.
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Taffy
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Cay, I hear what you're saying and you're right. Having a degree does matter too much to too many people.
My goals for my children are the ability to live independently, a vocation that brings them happiness (if they choose to be a gas jockey for the sheer joy of it - great!), and, above all, the knowledge and acceptance that they are loved by their family and by God, the Father, more than they can ever comprehend. It's too bad that many in our society don't share those goals - but I guess that's why we choose to be different from the rest of society. 
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 25 2007 at 5:42pm | IP Logged
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Oh, Rebecca, I'm so sorry you're feeling hurt and misunderstood. I thought you were coming to my defense, and I felt a little misunderstood as well.
But, as I just wrote above, we have all said that we believe college may or may not be an option. Depends on the person completely.
I'm going to put a different take on this discussion and hope it redirects the discussion to a safer place. In my last post I wrote:
Cay wrote:
But is a college degree the only way to prove that hsing works? Perhaps that's the question to ask. If the Colfax boys of "HSing for Excellence" had not all gone to Harvard, would their hsing example be as glossy and high-profile? I think not.
What's wrong with this picture? |
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I need to say, in reference to this, I know their example would not be so stellar. We would never have heard of the Colfax family had all the boys not gone to Harvard.
It's the hsers approach to showing society that hsing really works and it really has arrived.
But where does this leave our children who, through no fault of their own or ours, are not at this level of production? That's where my focus is. Not on whether you went to college or not, not on whether your child goes to college or not but, if your child does not go to college, where does that leave him/her in this production-driven society of ours?
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 25 2007 at 5:46pm | IP Logged
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Amen! Taffy to a well-written, very eloquent statement.
Btw, I've been notified that my PM box is full (and I didn't even know it ) so I apologize and will try to clear it out a bit.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
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SuzanneG
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JennGM wrote:
| ] Yes, there are other options than just getting married. But most require $$$. Single lay vocation -- requires living quarters, in most areas transportation which requires money. In this area, if you want to work you need a car, and then you need money for insurance. |
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I think this is another assumption that society has latched onto that I/we have assessed over the years. Someone earlier alluded to this but I can’t find it. The importance placed on the popular/modern notions of freedom, independence, financial security, etc......
We won’t assume that our girls “should” live on their own / be independent before getting married. I can’t CONTROL this of course. But I won’t outwardly encourage it and assume that my girls are on their own when they hit 18 (or whatever). If they want, they can live with us…., if they desire until they marry. It’s economical and puts no strain on them whatsoever to find a “high-paying-job” to pay for everything involved in living on your own. Rent, food, car, insurance, gas, etc, if they were to live on their own.
Cay Gibson wrote:
But where does this leave our children who, through no fault of their own or ours, are not at this level of production? .....where does that leave him/her in this production-driven society of ours? |
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They could get a full or part-time job doing something they enjoy doing and, of course, contributing to the running of the household. I do not at all doubt a hard-working-young-adult's ability to find a decent paying job. As has been said, there is ALWAYS a need for hard-working, self-sufficient problem-solving individuals.
Young adult girls would help around the house. They could be of service to others in need: babies, mommies, elderly, church, etc. Volunteering. They can further their education by following their own Rabbit Trails, write, cook, tutor, research, garden, home improvement, read, pray, organize, philosophize, work, exercise, computer work, work geometry problems…..the possibilities are endless.
Society would look at this as being lazy or unproductive. I can think of nothing better than to have a grown daughter with her family….doing all the things we love to do….laughing, loving, learning……at such a wonderful time in their lives before they are caring for a husband and children, if that’s their vocation.
Again, I’m just questioning the traditional path…….and questioning the need/focus on earning potential to support an independent lifestyle. I'm not saying this is for everyone/every family. But, just another way of looking at "A Lady's Education".
This also goes back to Cay’s post about being “little” and “hidden”…..society will NOT see our dds who are living like this as “productive.” But, we know and dds will know that being “little” and “hidden” is a path to sanctity.
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Bookswithtea
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lapazfarm wrote:
Funny. In all my time at three different universities (UF, Colorado State, and WCU) I never had a professor try to undermine my faith. Not saying that it doesn't happen to others, just that it doesn't necessarily have to happen.
In fact, we have a couple of college profs in our very small Parish.
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Wow. As someone pointed out, its all anecdotal, but in an upper division science class my own letter was ridiculed publicly, read aloud in a large lecture hall (without my name) and then the professor spent the entire hour disproving that God had anything to do with origins.
In an upper division Lit. class, I heard the most horrendous interpretations of Catholic themes through studying James Joyce (I was offended and I wasn't even Catholic at the time).
I won't even begin to detail my one Women's Studies class but the B- for Effort F for Content on the top of my research paper I saved. This because a girlfriend and I decided to look up the books she referenced in her text (she wrote the text for the class) and then discuss how these people were more radical than they appeared through the text (yes, it was a crazy thing to do! ).
My one upper division Religious Studies class was taught by an ex Nun who is still a liberal Catholic and I learned a whole lot about Mary Daly and some other rabid feminists... not so much about traditional Christian theology.
This was in the early 1990's. The last time I was near my old campus, I couldn't believe how the population had changed...I have never seen so many same sex couples holding hands (and worse) in public. College campuses are not the way they were when we were all there.
I think that if we are called and its our vocation to do the bold evangelistic thing (and we have a calling to a career that requires it), then college may be God's plan to prove one's mettle, so to speak. But if one is not called in that direction, I wonder if it might be wiser to be like Joseph and flee.
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Bookswithtea
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I just finished going through all the posts in this thread. I was responding without having finished the thread.
In hindsight, I fear my last post may be perceived as hostile or hurtful. It wasn't intended that way. I'm so sorry.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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JennGM
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SuzanneG wrote:
JennGM wrote:
| ] Yes, there are other options than just getting married. But most require $$$. Single lay vocation -- requires living quarters, in most areas transportation which requires money. In this area, if you want to work you need a car, and then you need money for insurance. |
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I think this is another assumption that society has latched onto that I/we have assessed over the years. Someone earlier alluded to this but I can’t find it. The importance placed on the popular/modern notions of freedom, independence, financial security, etc......
We won’t assume that our girls “should” live on their own / be independent before getting married. I can’t CONTROL this of course. But I won’t outwardly encourage it and assume that my girls are on their own when they hit 18 (or whatever). If they want, they can live with us…., if they desire until they marry. It’s economical and puts no strain on them whatsoever to find a “high-paying-job” to pay for everything involved in living on your own. Rent, food, car, insurance, gas, etc, if they were to live on their own. |
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I mentioned this from my own personal experience....my parents did not think I should live on my own, or NEEDED to move out at age 18. We paid rent and helped out. But we did need cars and help pay the insurance to get to our jobs.
Only two of the girls did live on our own before we got married. One sister did because she found a job at the college campus/press. I finally did at age 30. I thought it was about time. I married at 33.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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asplendidtime
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Cay,
I was trying to defend you, in the sense that I agreed with you. I thought your points were very valid. I don't think and didn't think you were advocating no-College... And I am not either.
I was advocating not getting an education at College based on fear of the future, becoming a widow, dh being incapacitated, etc... But only in response to God's call. I did want to bring out since others were mentioning how positive College was that there are plenty of bad College situations, and that this same schola time "learning in leisure" could be done/achieved at home or elsewhere. College isn't the only answer. It isn't suitable for everyone. This has touched my own family, so I can give lots of anecdotal evidence... And I think you can become a very excellent pencil in the hand of God, even without a degree!
I am embarassed as all my points were missed except the part when I mentioned the anti-Catholic bias in our culture and in post-secondary schools, esp. in Canada. So it seemed that everything I said was reduced to a sound bite and it was labelled as fear.
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Rebecca~Mama to
Noah 17,
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Mary 14,
Tim 13,
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Zoe 9,
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Laura-Mae 4,
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Cay Gibson
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JennGM wrote:
| Only two of the girls did live on our own before we got married. One sister did because she found a job at the college campus/press. I finally did at age 30. I thought it was about time. I married at 33. |
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A childhood friend of mine who is only a month younger than I, still lives at home with her parents and works at Wal-Mart though she has a degree is the culinary arts. Her brother and two sisters are married with families. Sara is the only one left to care for her father who has had a stroke and her mother who has the beginning stages of Alzheimers.
One of our camping friends has a dd who is 33, works at Wal-Mart and still lives at home with her parents...and is happy and content to do so, her mother says.
At one time I would have thought this a sad existence. Sometimes I wonder if it is. Sometimes I wonder if they are sad, if they feel they didn't "make" anything of themselves, if they are trapped into being the primary caretaker of their aging parents.
Then I think how blessed their parents are to have these dds. And I realize that, though not one sees it, how valuable and rich their "little and hidden" existences can be (in the end that we all shall meet...college degree or not...) if they only see how holy this existence is.
Do they see it? What am I doing to help them see it?
Perhaps this was God's call in their lives. Perhaps this is the "family" that was predestined for them by God. Who am I to say?
Suzanne, thank you for the reminder of "little and hidden". See how quickly I forget! In a day's time, in one afternoon, I had already forgotten the importance of being "little and hidden".
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| At one time I would have thought this a sad existence. |
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Me too.
Cay Gibson wrote:
| Then I think how blessed their parents are to have these dds.....if they only see how holy this existence is. |
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Yes. Not glamorous at all but so precious and holy. I teared up reading your examples.
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Suzanne in ID
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Cay Gibson
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Rebecca,
I have to say that this thread has been so power-punched and so full that I've had trouble keeping up with the reading and tend to skim-read over parts. I know I took special notice of the part where you shared your own personal experience regarding this subject so I found it very insightful and noteworthy. And you made valid points that corresponded with my own. I appreciate that.
With so many responses and different viewpoints, it's normal for us to try to condense the material in an attempt to explain our own feelings. I think, perhaps, the same part of your post that captured my attention, captured everyone else's. I would have to go back to find that section and see if you even used the word fear. Perhaps you didn't but the word entered all our minds. Why? Because we all fear this happening to us as a women with young children to raise. Condensing it and labeling it as "Fear" was only natural, but nothing against you personally, dear.
That is a fear all women have so I think it was a natural sound bite to latch onto. I know I fear it.
Not that I couldn't manage without my dh (I would have to), but it's a cross I don't want to carry. I shirk from the very idea of facing this fear. It's not so much a fear for materials sake as much as a fear of our own emotions. Being left on one's own leaves us vulnerable and very alone.
I've heard of liberated women who swore ever becoming dependant on a man for this very reason. They were too much in control for such foolishness...only to find themselves in love, married, and feeling totally vulnerable and "fearing" that might loose this man and the security he provided in more ways than job and money. They never dreamed they would depend on someone else so much for love, support, security, well-being, happiness.
This is how God made us in the natural order. It was not good for man to be alone...
I guess, in a way, the tag of a college education gives us an impression that we are clothed in a tarp of protection. Only, we aren't. Our emotions can still be stripped raw and exposed to the elements of society and the world at large.
I guess long ago, a women did feel at odds if she didn't have a collee degree or any work experience. But that was when women were just starting to go into the workplace. Before then a college education wasn't that important for a women because families took care of the women, for the most part.
Times have changed. Women are expected to get out there and earn their keep. But, do we forget, what day and age we live in? There is so much out there and online that gives us the education our mothers and grandmothers could not dream about.
This is a favorite saying of mine to anti-hsers. I tell them that we are surrounded by education nowadays. Yes, some of it is misguided and misquoted but so are college professors. There are so many resources out there, and we are smart enough to separate the wheat from the chaff. If we want the education, we can find it. Seek and you shall find. It's impossible not to be educated...in my opinion.
Which brings us back to the college vs. no-college thread...
I'm taking a long way of asking you to please not feel offended. I've known the women here for several, several years and know that nothing has been said against anyone personally.
This is all a good, wholesome debate amongst friends. A hard debate to keep up with, I'll admit. But we will all walk away from this discussion better informed, more supportive, and more sympathetic and understanding. I am sure of it.
And I, for one, really appreciate you sharing your personal experience and giving us the courage that, even without a college degree, we will be able to move forward and be that shield of courage, love, support, security, well-being, happiness for our children..thus setting a superior example of a real "lady's education" for them to follow.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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asplendidtime
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I guess the two fears that got mixed up, was I said we shouldn't plan to go to College for fear if something goes wrong with our husband...
Then I felt I was misunderstood to mean that we shouldn't have our dc go to College for fear of them losing their faith. It's getting a little ridiculous... Anyway, I know that fear, but I don't live in it. I won't. I can't. The next day after his accident, I looked online at the Colleges and University in Edmonton to see what I should do, just in case I wasn't so lucky next time... Fear.
And even with a degree/diploma people will sadly still undervalue us for the sake that we stay home, or are Catholic, or don't have less than three kids!
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Noah 17,
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Mary 14,
Tim 13,
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Josh 10,
Zoe 9,
Will 7,
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Laura-Mae 4,
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Cay Gibson
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7smallones wrote:
| And even with a degree/diploma people will sadly still undervalue us for the sake that we stay home, or are Catholic, or don't have less than three kids! |
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Exactly!
It just reinforces our belief that we are here to please God and do what He calls us to do...and not what other people think we should do.
We certainly cannot please the world. So why do we all try so hard?
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Cay Gibson
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Bridget
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So, if we put aside college vs. non-college for now, what would our dream lady's education look like? Either for ourselves or our daughters. Pretend they would be happy to follow our lead as young adult women.
Follow a course of study in the great books, go on a mission, help us with the younger kids still at home, work in the parish...
I'm dreamin' here.
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Mary G
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Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5790
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| Posted: April 25 2007 at 8:49pm | IP Logged
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I just read through all the posts ... and I think it is beyond college vs no college... I agree with Rebecca that it's about discerning God's will -- and that's what we need to teach our children (male or female) -- to try to discern God's will in everything we do, but especially the big, life-changing aspects.
Whenever I've tried to let God lead ... all has worked out in the long run, better than I ever thought it could; whenever I've tried to rely on my education or myself or my own determination (without including God int he equation), things have gone catty-wampus ...
I know what I dream for my girls, but bottom-line when they're adults they're not "ours" anymore and they need to find their own way and hopefully, if dh and I have done our jobs right, they will follow God's way ....
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MaryG
3 boys (22, 12, 8)2 girls (20, 11)
my website that combines my schooling, hand-knits work, writing and everything else in one spot!
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: A Lady's Education
