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Cay Gibson
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JennGM wrote:
There are many, many others, mostly because higher education wasn't available for women. |
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But does that mean women are smarter today than they were back then just because today they are able to sit in a college classroom and receive a diploma?
I think life experience teaches so much more than a college classroom ever could.
I've also heard from more than one source that one can get a college education from reading the Great Books. The thought intrigues me. I've also been told by a hsing mother that she wouldn't want a brain surgeon doing brain surgery on her if he had just read about it. 
I'll grant that brain surgeons know what hard work and commitment are. Definitely!
But, in general, it seems that the general population has embraced higher education over hard work, lifelong commitment to family, and submitting one's will to God's will.
It's as though the reward is found at the end of the podium and the golden ticket is that diploma. If you have that then all life is suppose to be a piece of cake and your brain is a thousand times better than the person who didn't walk the walk.
This simply is not true.
I'm saying this all as a college graduate who genuinely hopes that my dd gets a college degree. I'm also speaking as a proponent who believes that life skills and learning are more important that what is learned in the classroom. And I want to support those who choose a different path.
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Cay Gibson
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Cay Gibson
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7smallones wrote:
I hope my girls/boys will put God's call first and foremost on their agenda regarding what they will do when they turn 18, 19, or 20. We are trying to teach them to give God their best and the first chance. So discerning a vocation is what we think they should be first considering. But that said we are open to what God has for them, so if that means post-Secondary education then so be it.
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Amen!
And, since marriage and raising a family is a precious vocation, that's where this discussion comes to a head.
How do we blend our education and our choice of career to our vocation. How do we mesh them and make them holy in the "real world" we live in?
I have more to say but must get lunch.
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Cay Gibson
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JennGM
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Cay Gibson wrote:
JennGM wrote:
There are many, many others, mostly because higher education wasn't available for women. |
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But does that mean women are smarter today than they were back then just because today they are able to sit in a college classroom and receive a diploma? |
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No, I'm just saying that making a list famous women without a college degree (or higher learning) is a bit different than making a list of men with the same standards. Just pointing out the obvious...
And while YES, we can earn an equivalent from the Great Books, is our child going to apply themself to do that? It's nice to have that 4 years to do only learning. Perhaps some don't enjoy it, or take advantage of the opportunity. But are we going to have the time equivalent and the LUXURY of having all that study time? If I have to work, or get married and start having children, time for that becomes slim.
I know I'm totally being devil's advocate here, and I don't mean to attack....please don't take it personally! I just get fired up about this subject. I love the idea of a Lady's education, but I do see advantages of a liberal arts or great books degree or solid college education. It is a time that society sets aside, that gives you this sacred time. I said it before...it's a luxury. It's not a necessity, nor is it the only way...but it does make it easier if a person uses it to their best advantage!
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lapazfarm
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coming in late here, and with much trepidation. I don't want to offend anyone on either side, pro or con. But here is how I feel.
A college education is not for everyone. But neither is any other life path. Each of us is so very different and so are our children that to say one route is better than another is simplistic. It really depends on the intellect and temperament of the person under consideration, as others have already noted.
For me not to have gone to college would have been a shame. I so enjoyed learning more and more about the world around me, having the opportunity to learn from professors who were enthusiastic about their subjects and eager to discuss with an inquiring young mind.
What a luxury, as Jenn said!
And graduate school was even more so! To be able to delve deep into a subject of interest, to do real research, to present papers at scientific meetings, have papers published! Just soaking it all in was such a glorious time!
And I don't believe for a minute I could have learned it all by simply reading some books off of a list. Maybe some could, but not me.
I value my college education highly. I learned SO MUCH and loved every bit of it. And though one may assume I no longer use my degrees because I am no longer in the workforce, I DO use the knowledge I gained on a daily basis. I cannot count the number of times I have been asked either in person, through email, or on my blog "where did you come up with that idea?" Well, honestly, I learned about it in college. That and a whole lot more.
And no, I don't think a college education is necessary to homeschool. But I do know I call upon mine on a daily basis. It is what makes our homeschool what it is.
To be fair, I did experience a lot of bad behavior in college, but I would have experienced just as much had I been in any other situation. I know this because my summer jobs were filled with the very same type of experiences. Drinking, casual s*x, and just general immorality are prevalent in college AND in the workforce, especially with that age group. So I think that trying to protect our children by keeping them from college is naive. Immorality is everywhere.
Besides, I found my husband at college. And through him, the Church! And this was at a public university.
So, good things can happen at college, too!
I still don't think college is for everyone. There are many for whom it would not be a good fit. Trade school, apprenticeships, life-learning, all of these are good and noble options. For men or women. And we need, as parents to discern wisely. But we want to be careful not to close doors for our children out of fear. There is, after all, a time to let go and trust-our children and God.
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Tina P.
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Cay Gibson wrote:
| I've also heard from more than one source that one can get a college education from reading the Great Books. The thought intrigues me. I've also been told by a hsing mother that she wouldn't want a brain surgeon doing brain surgery on her if he had just read about it. |
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What about those whose degrees are in other areas than humanities ~ engineering or medicine, for instance? You can't just read great books and be expected to jump into either one of these careers. And I wouldn't want to be the brain on which that brain surgeon practiced! There are good skills practiced in laboratories in universities. These are experiences you can NOT get from books. How does a person gain experience except through an institution with teachers and equipment? I can't just bring a dead body home to dissect (if I have a child interested in Anatomy), for instance.
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SuzanneG
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Tina: That's a GREAT reason to attend college! Books cited this yesterday:
Bookswithtea wrote:
Harvey Unger in his book, "But What If I Don't Want To Go To College?", says that there are really only two good reasons to send a child to a traditional four year college:
First, the child has a deep desire to study academic subjects such as history, literature, or philosophy.
Second, he has a deep commitment to career goals that require a four year degree (such as medicine or law)." (pages 242-243, copyright 2004) |
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Engineering, Sciences, etc....etc..
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Taffy
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Well said Theresa! You've stated my thoughts so well and saved me a lot of writing!
I would just like to add the thought that a lady's education shouldn't be limited to "traditional" career paths either. By this I mean that, should our daughters have an interest in or talent in, say, construction, or electronics, then these fields ought not to be discouraged in her field of studies either. Trades careers can dove- tail quite nicely into a way to earn income, should it become necessary, and/or a way to help in being a "keeper of the home". After all, not all our husbands are so handy with the tool chest.
For that matter, we must also not neglect to teach our sons basic domestic skills. While I'm not planning on teaching my sons how to efficiently run a household (not that I'm sure I know how to  ), I do want them to have the habits and know-how to keep their home tidy and themselves well-fed. Who knows, they may have to teach their future wife such things! Or, should they become a "confirmed bachelor", at least they will know how to feed themselves properly and not resort to eating out of cans for the week or of needing to eat out all the time.
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Taffy
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Tina P. wrote:
Cay Gibson wrote:
| I've also heard from more than one source that one can get a college education from reading the Great Books. The thought intrigues me. I've also been told by a hsing mother that she wouldn't want a brain surgeon doing brain surgery on her if he had just read about it. |
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What about those whose degrees are in other areas than humanities ~ engineering or medicine, for instance? You can't just read great books and be expected to jump into either one of these careers. And I wouldn't want to be the brain on which that brain surgeon practiced! There are good skills practiced in laboratories in universities. These are experiences you can NOT get from books. How does a person gain experience except through an institution with teachers and equipment? I can't just bring a dead body home to dissect (if I have a child interested in Anatomy), for instance. |
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Tina, I share these exact thoughts as well. I wanted to become a veterinarian when I finished high school. I KNOW that there's no way I could have learned what I did in my university courses on my own.
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JennGM
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I'm going to go back and say that truly one cannot just earn the education by reading. You can greatly enhance your knowledge by reading the Great Books, but much of the education comes from discussing and turning the ideas. Thomas Aquinas College, Magdalen, other traditional Great Books programs discuss the works. That's what missing at a self-education.
My sister quoted a professor who said we need less classrooms on a college campus and more cafes and places to converse and discuss, because that is largely part of the education. Look back at original universities. The professor was merely a moderator. There was much discussion.
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JennGM
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lapazfarm wrote:
For me not to have gone to college would have been a shame. I so enjoyed learning more and more about the world around me, having the opportunity to learn from professors who were enthusiastic about their subjects and eager to discuss with an inquiring young mind.
What a luxury, as Jenn said! |
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A phrase popped in my mind, besides being a luxury, it's also a freedom, a freedom from time for this opportunity of discussing and learning.
While I love history, I don't want to be part of a backward looking movement. We are called to be a light, a beacon, shining to others, attract others to God and our Faith.
And I see that we have to be like the shrewd businessman in the Gospel and use the tools that society gives us that AREN'T evil. Something that keeps coming to my mind is how Father Alberione, founder of the Daughters of St. Paul saw that we have a huge fight again evil, and so much is spread through mass media. Those that promote evil are using top of the line, latest inventions to spread their message. The tools themselves are not evil, so we need to get them as much as possible to use them for good, so we can try to be on equal footing.
In the same way, people do respect a college degree. You can fight it, be against the fact that society puts so much weight in a diploma, but it's out there. So, in my mind I think we need to try to be on equal footing, so we can draw more to Christ. So, instead of fighting to be against the degree, let's teach our child about what a great opportunity this is. Let's teach them good study habits, how to choose classes, what degree to pick that would help in career and/or vocation paths, how to find like-minded groups on campus, etc.
I'm coming from a different angle, that a college education is a benefit in so many ways, especially in evangelization. It IS petty and small for people to belittle and not respect you for lack of diploma. I've seen it through my mother. But I see that as let's win at their game -- I'll get a degree and show them that a Christian mother can be educated, smart, talented AND be a SAHM and homeschool her children.
I'll get off my soap box......
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asplendidtime
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Yes, but what is missing in the discussion seems to be....  (sorry if I am misunderstanding it) ... The sense of discernment. What is God's plan for each and every one of us, where is He calling us? Where does He call our children. Ultimately it isn't going to be about what you learned at College and whether or not it is valuable to you. It is about your child's life and the increasingly vehemently anti-Christian culture that your children will likely be swimming in. Where prof's deliberately try to undermine their faith, their parents' political views and even their very value systems.
It is hard to compare one's experience when they were say, not a Christian, and didn't get a good education in Secondary school... Yes some of those ladies did some growing up maybe and benefited from the experience. Studies show that lots of the children raised as Christians who go away to College do lose their faith. It is anecdotal evidence at best to say "I had a good experience so it must be a good idea." Someone mentioned their experience in some rough work atmospheres, but I don't think that comes to bear on the subject as frankly none of our daughters would likely be subject to the environment of a sawmill. Also it was suggested that if you won't go to College, you must be getting married right away, or going right into the workforce... Isn't there another alternative? 
It is almost like having two different discussions at once.
It makes me think of when dh and I would discuss faith and he was from a protestant Pentecostal-type background and I was from a Catholic one. We'd talk about our faith in Jesus but not get anywhere, our language was so different, it was hard to meet in the middle.
You guys should come to Alberta, we have a school here, (due to government regulations) which facilitates or oversees our homeschool. It is called WISDOM, and our home learning students get to have Great Books discussions!
St Gianna Beretta Mola is an example of an exemplary Catholic woman who was had a Phd and lived a saintly life. The point I was making about the Women Doctors of the Church was not that it was impossible for such a woman to get an education, it was not necessary in their case... As they were surrendered to Christ, and the fact that they did not have a Phd, did not stop Him from writing with them as a pencil in His Hand!
So do not be afraid to not have your child go to College. There is too much fear on both sides.
I do so hope I haven't offended anyone, please contact me and let me know, I need to get better at communicating. I respect everyone's opinion who has contributed. I just don't think it has to be such a polemical discussion.
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Natalia
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JennGM wrote:
| I'm going to go back and say that truly one cannot just earn the education by reading. You can greatly enhance your knowledge by reading the Great Books, but much of the education comes from discussing and turning the ideas. Thomas Aquinas College, Magdalen, other traditional Great Books programs discuss the works. That's what missing at a self-education. |
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I agree with Jenn. That is kind of what I wanted to say on my post. I have learned a lot on my own since finishing my master's degree but it all feel disjointed plus I really miss having a somebody to discuss what I am learning. it almost feel like learning in a vacuum.
Natalia
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JennGM
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7smallones wrote:
| It is almost like having two different discussions at once. |
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I feel the two discussions. But you can't have true discernment if there is fear or thoughts that a college degree isn't a good thing.
You're right, personal anecdotes aren't proof, but they do help illustrate. I know what has been my experience.
Truly, not all profs or colleges try to undermine the faith. That kind of blanket statement is not truth, either. Are we in an anti-Christian society? Yes. Is everyone out to get us? No...we have to find the good.
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lapazfarm
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Funny. In all my time at three different universities (UF, Colorado State, and WCU) I never had a professor try to undermine my faith. Not saying that it doesn't happen to others, just that it doesn't necessarily have to happen.
In fact, we have a couple of college profs in our very small Parish.
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SuzanneG
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JennGM wrote:
| But you can't have true discernment if there is fear or thoughts that a college degree isn't a good thing. |
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I don't think a college degree is a bad thing ("not a good thing"). Personally, I wouldn't even say "I REGRET my college years."
But, rather.....Is it necessary for what any of our dc want to do? Especially for girls....Getting back to the "Lady's Education".
Are there better ways to be "educated"?
We are all educating our dc at home because we see a better / different way that fits our families / our dc. I see this as continuing the thought process of how we view the education.....not as a fear.
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Cay Gibson
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Oops! Lost my post...trying again.
Tina P. wrote:
| What about those whose degrees are in other areas than humanities ~ engineering or medicine, for instance? You can't just read great books and be expected to jump into either one of these careers. And I wouldn't want to be the brain on which that brain surgeon practiced! There are good skills practiced in laboratories in universities. These are experiences you can NOT get from books. How does a person gain experience except through an institution with teachers and equipment? I can't just bring a dead body home to dissect (if I have a child interested in Anatomy), for instance. |
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That's just my point though. We can't learn everything from books. As big a proponent I am for exposure to literature, I am equally big on promoting Real Learning. You take the book into the real world and put the information to use. For that information to merely sit in your head and not be shared is not making good use of the time and the wisdom God gave you.
So I think we all agree on that point.
JennGM wrote:
| I'm going to go back and say that truly one cannot just earn the education by reading. You can greatly enhance your knowledge by reading the Great Books, but much of the education comes from discussing and turning the ideas. Thomas Aquinas College, Magdalen, other traditional Great Books programs discuss the works. That's what missing at a self-education. |
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I never had a Socratic education in high school or college. I didn't get that education until I got online in 1998.
I didn't know or care what a true nature study or environmental education was until meeting MacBeth...online.
Online communities provide us with the discussion and "turning of ideas".
The books give us the great minds for teachers. The exposure (online or in a classroom) provides the sharing. And it's all educational. What we do with it is what we give back to God.
Perhaps this home education is more for me than my children. I try to share it with my children, I write about it in hopes of keeping my children's education as my main focus throughout the day but, still, I am the one who seems to be reaping the harvest.
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Cay Gibson
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Natalia
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JennGM wrote:
| But you can't have true discernment if there is fear or thoughts that a college degree isn't a good thing. |
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I think that fear is never a good base to make a decision. Jesus tells us repeatedly Be Not Afraid.What I would like my dd to do is to show the world a new way of being a woman. A woman that embraces her vocation-whatever that may be- out of love. I don't want her to be a career woman because she has to prove to the world that women can do it. I don't want her to choose to not go to college because she is afraid of what college can do to her. I want her to be a woman of the 21st century- one that can speak to the women of this day and age face to face, as an equal. I wouldn't want her to be dismissed because she can not speak the language of the 21st century. I want her to be a woman that embraces femininity 100% in whatever she,within God's will, decide to do.
I don't know if I am making any sense-I think there is a a great temptation to cowered from the world. After all the world is a scary place. But I don't think the answer is to put a wall around us and shut the world out. I think we have to raise our kids, boys and women, to change the world. For some of them changing the world might mean raising a family with the right values and priorities. For others it might mean to do something else.But for whatever it is I think our job is to raise them to say YES and have the tools to follow up on that yes.
Natalia, who probably as usual has gone on a tanget :-)
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Taffy
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7smallones wrote:
Yes, but what is missing in the discussion seems to be.... (sorry if I am misunderstanding it) ... The sense of discernment. What is God's plan for each and every one of us, where is He calling us? Where does He call our children. Ultimately it isn't going to be about what you learned at College and whether or not it is valuable to you. It is about your child's life and the increasingly vehemently anti-Christian culture that your children will likely be swimming in. Where prof's deliberately try to undermine their faith, their parents' political views and even their very value systems.
It is hard to compare one's experience when they were say, not a Christian, and didn't get a good education in Secondary school... Yes some of those ladies did some growing up maybe and benefited from the experience. Studies show that lots of the children raised as Christians who go away to College do lose their faith. It is anecdotal evidence at best to say "I had a good experience so it must be a good idea." Someone mentioned their experience in some rough work atmospheres, but I don't think that comes to bear on the subject as frankly none of our daughters would likely be subject to the environment of a sawmill. Also it was suggested that if you won't go to College, you must be getting married right away, or going right into the workforce... Isn't there another alternative? |
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I think that a lot has been said on discerning whether or not college is important for our children's vocation. The general consensus that I see is that, it's not always necessary, but when it is, it will be supported.
I don't think that fear of falling away from the faith is a valid reason not to attend. I think that not wanting to incur a heavy debt is, not knowing what you want out of college is, and not needing college for your chosen vocation are all good reasons not to attend.
There is a good reason for my saying this. At some point, as has been mentioned by several previously, we have to let go and let our children stand on their own two feet and find their own reasons for being Catholic. And, yes, they may decide not to. This is THEIR decision. We can do everything within our power to educate them within the faith and teach them about God. But, in the end, they will have to make up their own mind. I echo JennGM's comments about the need to defend my beliefs making me stronger in my faith. I can't say that I never strayed, but I can say that the decision to remain catholic is my own. I am glad to say that I "choose" to remain catholic because of "x", "y", and "z" and not because I've never known or met another path. And, frankly, I met more challenges to my faith outside of the university atmosphere - maybe I'm an anomaly.
I DO realize that not many of our daughters will be working in a sawmill - as I said, there weren't many women at the one I worked at. But, some of our daughters may indeed choose to work in such an environment. And there is nothing wrong with that - we simply must prepare them with the tools needed to cope. Many holy women found themselves in such an atmosphere - Nellie Cashman and Joan of Arc are two that come immediately to mind. Such a life may be God's calling for some of our daughters.
Yes, there are other options to simply getting married or entering the workforce. These should be encouraged as well. But, if they need to find a way to put food on the table, I want my children to have the skills necessary to do so.
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Taffy
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I see that others have already posted what I was trying to say much more eloquently. Thank you.
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JennGM
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Taffy wrote:
7smallones wrote:
| Also it was suggested that if you won't go to College, you must be getting married right away, or going right into the workforce... Isn't there another alternative? |
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Yes, there are other options to simply getting married or entering the workforce. These should be encouraged as well. But, if they need to find a way to put food on the table, I want my children to have the skills necessary to do so. |
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Taffy and Natalia, thank you. You echoed some of my thoughts. I was beginning to think I needed to exit this thread because I wasn't making sense.
Yes, there are other options than just getting married. But most require $$$. I mentioned above earlier, most religious orders require education or workforce experience before entrance. Single lay vocation -- requires living quarters, in most areas transportation which requires money. In this area, if you want to work you need a car, and then you need money for insurance. Kind of a circular argument. Sawmills are not common, but it's rough just in regular offices!
Of course, there are always exceptions, but eventually each child is going to grow up and leave the nest in their vocation -- single, religious, or married.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: A Lady's Education
