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Taffy
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| Posted: April 24 2007 at 1:03am | IP Logged
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Interesting thread...
When I've run into the question, "Is college necessary for girls?" before, I've always said, "Of course!"
That is not to say that a college education is right for everyone and not everyone will want one. But I do think that the academic ability to gain entrance into college is something to strive for.
This whole question of women being the "keepers of the home" and what a woman's place in society has been bugging me for a while now. While I've chosen to stay at home with my children while they're young, I am glad that it was a choice for me. In other words, I had options. I think that if I were forced to stay at home for whatever reason, it would be much more difficult to be the best mom and wife I could be for my family.
Getting a post-secondary education has made me a more confident person in general. I consider most professionals as my equal with more of an expertise in their field of interest. I don't suffer from the notion of "just follow doctor's orders and don't question their advice", for instance. I'm confident in my ability to do my own research and seek out answers. This may have come without the post-secondary training anyway, but I do think it helped.
There is never a guarantee that our girls will find a good man and get married. Personally, I never thought I'd find anyone who'd put up with me.  And, if we are fortunate enough to find a good husband, there is always the possibility that he'll be unable to support the family for some reason or another. Being a wife and a mother with post-secondary education opens up doors to providing the family with an income that would otherwise be closed.
There is also the fact that not all girls are cut out for traditional "feminine jobs". For instance, I'm a terrible waitress. And I doubt that I could cut it as a professional housekeeper. I worked my way through university with summer jobs at a sawmill. Not many women there handling lumber all day (or night) long!
I can't say that I learned or heard anything at college/university that was any worse than what I was exposed to in my jobs. In fact, the worst exposure was while I worked in retail. The rough guys in construction and at the mill were much more pleasant than some of the "fellows" in retail. 
My plan for any daughters I may have is to prepare them to be able to attend university should they choose to. Should they be given the opportunity to be a wife and mother and choose to stay home, I would encourage and support them fully! But, I would definitely ensure that they are prepared for the single life as well.
Well, there's my meandering thoughts from a tired mind. Time for bed!
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Susan
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Susan's Soliloquy
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Taffy
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| Posted: April 24 2007 at 1:23am | IP Logged
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chicken lady wrote:
| If women would accept their roles as Mary our example in all humility, than I believe men could and would be men. Women want out of the home, they will take jobs for less pay, so companies will hire them instead of fathers attempting to provide for their familes. I feel like shouting let men be men, women get out of the way, honor our differences, bring back our lost culture and family values. |
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Well, no tomatoes from me, but I would like to comment on this...
As I mentioned in my previous post, not all women want to be a wife and/or mother. This is not "wrong". After all, the Church was one of the first to allow women to live a single life as a nun! There were many who advised our church fathers, acted as teachers, doctors, nurses, etc. and achieved sainthood after all! (The only one that comes to mind is St. Teresa of Avila at the moment, although I am sure there are others.)
Personally, I believe that women would be better served by changing their attitude towards homemaking as a legitimate vocation. I think it's important that women be allowed to own property and work in any career they choose - not just the ones considered "feminine". While it's a beautiful thing when a community rallies to support the recently widowed, it's not the norm. Ask my grandmother who was widowed when pregnant with her sixth child.
There is a reason that the stereotype of the housewife who sits at home all day watching TV and eating bon bons exist. It's because there really are women who live this way. And it's a disservice to the rest of us who work hard for our families.
It would be nice if the life of a stay at home mom were recognized as an honorable profession. But, it's also nice that I have options should my husband become incapacitated or unable to provide for us. After all, my husband and I are a team. Just as he tries to pick up the slack when I'm unable to keep up my duties at home due to sickness or other reason, so should I be allowed to help with providing for our family should he become ill or unable to provide for our needs.
Which is why I value my university and college education!
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Susan
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Susan's Soliloquy
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Cheryl
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I would like for my dc to be happy and at peace in the life that they choose. My dh and I will share our experiences with them, but I hope that we will not have certain expectations for them because how would we know what God's will for them is?
Cay, were you asking us to share our experiences with higher education? Mine was that I got very far away from God (without sharing any details) when I went away to college. Maybe that would have happened anyway. But I know that it's possible to get a bachelor's degree without feeling very educated. I also have an MBA degree and I really don't know if it helped me to be educated or not. But everything I've done has made me who I am today, so I have no regrets.
I really liked what Maryan shared about her experience and I think I would encourage that for my dc's who don't know what they want to do. It's easy for me to be so laid back about this topic since my dc are 8 and under.  Ask me my opinion in 10 years.
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Cheryl
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Mom to Matthew 13, Joseph 11, Sarah 10, Rachel 6, Hannah almost 4 and Mary 1
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Angel
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This *is* an interesting thread. I haven't had a chance to read Coffee Wife's posts yet, but wanted to take part in the conversation before there are another 3 pages to read!
I'm not sure if I have anything new to add and my children are still young, so what I think now may change a bit as they get older. But I'll share my experience/thoughts as it stands right now.
I have 1 daughter, 4 sons, and 1 son on the way. My immediate family growing up was pretty solidly middle class -- my father is an engineer and so is my (step)mother, but she stayed home with us until my youngest sister was 3 and I was nearly 13. Then she spent a couple of years getting a masters, and after that she went back to work fulltime. My extended family background, however, is decidedly blue collar. My father's father never got beyond an 8th grade education, and many of my uncles on my mother's side are machinists, and very successful. (One of my uncles, who never went to college, has a very successful machine shop, which he is passing on to his son, who also did not go to college.) My youngest sister tried college but couldn't make it through, and is married to a man without a college education who has a successful business doing paintless dent removal; she stays home with her 2 young children.
While my family and I always thought as college as a given for *me*, that's more because of who I am than because they thought you needed a college education to have a fulfilling life. Since I had the example of my mother, who had a degree in a male-dominated field because she liked it, not just because it would make a good career, but still stayed hom at least while I was young, I never thought that college and work and vocation and motherhood couldn't mix for women. After seeing the problems my youngest sister had, however, when my mother went back to work, my own rather strong beliefs about staying home with my own kids were pretty much confirmed.
I don't regret going to college. I would have been absolutely miserable getting a job straight out of high school. I am not a good secretary or waitress. I would much rather be a doctor than a nurse, a lawyer than a paralegal. But I think that going to college afetr being schooled in an institution for 12 years and going to college after being homeschooled are probably totally different animals.
I was one of those kids who was continually told that some day, I would do great things. I was a very good student because I was terrified of people in authority being displeased with me, but I was incredibly BORED in school the entire time I was there. As an adult I have had to cope with a lot of anger, because I feel as if the adults in my life failed me by confining me within those walls. I didn't have to think, try, or struggle. Everything *academic* was too easy.
Of course, in my life now I have a hard time feeling competent on a daily basis because *everything* is a challenge, and since I rarely got to meet challenges as a kid, I don't have very good coping skills. Unfortunately, college was just sort of an extension of high school for me. I had to go to a state school, and most of the classes there were really easy for me, too. I once skipped an entire semester of a class, doing the readings (which were the interesting part anyway), and made an A anyway. I was also horribly depressed. All my interests pulled me to the "impractical" -- the thinking side of things -- but I was under a lot of pressure to do something that would make money. My husband and I were not married, but living together for most of college, and both of us had to work a lot to pay our way through. Nobody had ever really asked me what *I* wanted to do, or what I thought I was *called* to do. God was left completely out of the equation.
Thinking back on these experiences has affected how we talk to our kids about their own futures -- and how we educate them now. When I talk to my oldest son (10 yo)about his future and why he has to do math (for instance), I say that it's our job to prepare him for anything he wants/is called to do in life. Right now he's interested in robots, so I say, "If you want to build robots when you are a grown up, you will have to know a lot of math. You might decide not to design robots when you grow up, but at least you will have the chance. And anyway, you need to know how to manage your money, no matter what you do."
My daughter is a totally different personality than my son... and of course, she's a daughter. If she is called to be a doctor or a lawyer or a zoologist (which is what she wants to be right now, at 8 yo), I will encourage her to follow her calling. But since right now it does seem as if she may be called to also be a wife and mother... when she gets older, I imagine that we will have to have a talk about the choices she will probably have to make. For instance, going into zoology might be better for a woman who also wants to be a wife and mother than becoming an orthopedic surgeon, because it's more flexible, you can be a naturalist at home, and of course, you can share it with your kids! I'm lucky, because the thing I feel called to be other than a wife and mother is a writer, and being a wife and mother actually frees me from the pressure to have another, more well-paying and traditional career. I can write from anywhere, and I can do it at odd hours and on my own terms. (And, of course, if my daughter did not seem to be called in an academic direction and chose to forego college, I would respect that, too.)
As far as the college environment goes... like I say, I think homeschooled kids are an entirely different kettle of fish. My goal is to raise kids with more confidence, self-esteem, and responsibility than I did, who have had more of a chance to explore their own interests, more opportunity to learn and become grounded in their faith, and who will hopefully have a
better head on their shoulders than I did when I was 18. It's very scary to me to think that at some point, I will have to let them out there on their own. I just want to have done a good job of preparing them for life's curve balls by that point.
(I can't believe I've had this much time to type in a post! But I still feel as if I may not have said exactly what I meant, and so many of my own thoughts on this matter are somewhat haphazard and still forming. I hope to be able to read Coffee Wife's posts later.)
--Angela
Three Plus Two
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Shari in NY
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Well, Cay, this has been an interesting conversation!Thanks for bringing Coffee Wife's blog to our attention. I think we should incourage her to write a corollary to "A Thomas Jefferson Education"----A Jane Austen Education!
Shari
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Bookswithtea
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Natalia wrote:
So how do you present this topic to your daughters? Is it something you rely on your example and your attitude to convey? or are you deliberate about it?
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I don't. We don't talk about college. We say things like, "When you know what God's call is on your life, then we will look into what it takes to get there." Right now, all my little girls say they want to be mommmys and I don't discourage this at all. For ds, I always remind him that certain careers are better suited to marriage than others, and that its important that he think in terms of a good wage when thinking about careers. We also talk about vocation, but as a married or a single man, that will still involve a career.
Dh and I have not talked with them much about praying about a mate...I still feel weird, like I can't seem to find the right words to say what I want to say. I have taken that as a sign that its not time to talk about it yet! Dh and I have talked a lot about the value of marrying young, and we are praying for that for our children. We are also encouraging our children, if the Lord allows, to stay geographically close to each other, so that if/when disaster happens (like a disabled spouse), they will have help. If we had the money, we would buy acreage and give them all a plot of land to build their homes on it!
We live near a large Amish community. I find them inspiring. They don't educate beyond the 8th grade, but their education is much a like a good hs one where they are probably better educated than the average high school graduate. They leave school and at 14 live at home and learn all the things they will need to know to be an excellent mother/wife or father/husband, and apprentice out for trades or go into business for themselves (they have run out of land so sadly, many can't farm anymore). Grandparents live on site, watching over and helping. Their community cares for one another and no one's needs go unmet. I see a lot to emulate in their vision of family and community.
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and  due 9/10
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ALmom
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One thing everyone should know is how secretive the college is about your child. As a parent we do need to know that the college scene is way different than when I went. The college no longer considers itself a parent in abstentia. There are generally no rules on campus and they often tell your kids how to get around the law (underage drinking) and other such obnoxious stuff. Jannette is correct in cautioning a consideration of the maturity level of the particular individual. I would add that the openness of the child with the parents is another consideration. I know that I can access anything of my daughters I want. She voluntarily gave me her student ID number and she has asked me to come see her information on-line - ie friends, etc. She invites us to come visit and meet her friends. I don't abuse that trust in me by snooping around her college message boards or anything - it is mostly to see and print off grades for car and medical insurance purposes - and she generally e-mails me or phones me about everything. She also signed medical release forms for me to have access and you must be aware that with privacy laws, without this form, no one can tell you anything on any child over age 16. If our relationship was strained or she more immature, I would not have access to her grades or anything else. No one would tell me if she were down or in trouble. I have to count on close contact with her and open communications. This also weighs some into considerations. We do not live close to any Catholic colleges (orthodox or otherwise) and while we could have considered a nominally Catholic school - we're talking about a distance that automatically limits our ability to support her. We had to consider the fact that where she is now, we could be there in a heartbeat if she needed us for any reason - and she knows that and we are still a main support network for her. Of course I respect her budding independence - but I never cease to be a mom and she continues to ask me for advice. She could have gone close to home and gotten piano performance while living at home (but it was an unstable situation and her main professor there would be gone this year already and interprets music a bit differently (seems more pushy of the latest fad or experiment - plus no chamber or orchestra opportunities and very liberal leanings in everything). Her current piano professor is wonderful and 80+ years old where she has seen fads come and go and is not a crazy person. She also has a lovely professor teaching her violin and actually giving her lessons just like a major but understanding that piano is dd primary. These are wonderful opportunities for my dd and wonderful people for my dd to know. We met these people and had lessons with them long before making the decision. This is where my dd spends most of her time on campus - and her degree pursuit keeps her very, very busy. There are so many little details that go into the decision of if college and what college and where. These are things you just don't anticipate beforehand. Our dd made the decision, is staying on campus and we were with her in all the decision making steps - praying, asking questions, answering questions, passing on information about what we know, seeing first hand some of the nuttiness by visiting campus unannounced and talking to students at large. We found a rare - female only dorm that is relatively quiet and she had insisted that she would not go if they didn't change her dorm here from the dorm assigned so I knew she had so many priorities right. Is it perfect - NO, but it is reasonable and coupled with the discernment it seems that it is the right thing for her for now.
I really, really do understand the concern for the college environment. It is very real. And it is not out of line to look at and talk about the idea of not putting yourself in harms way and avoiding the near occassion of sin. You must thouroughly investigate anything first hand and not from hearsay. Every school is so different and real information at the time of the decision is part of making a good decision. Don't take the colleges word for things - they present things one way to the parent and another to the student. They want to reassure the parent and compete for the student. You must act as a team to ferret out real, honest information and realistically know what dangers you are facing and how these can be minimized. These are legitimate and essential factors to consider and there must be a clear and overriding reason for any danger. It must be a necessary evil that is unavoidable or one which the child will have some ability to avoid - ie remain true to the principal that we do have an obligation to avoid the near occassion of sin. The child's real situation in its entirety must be considered. You must also be able to discern that it is not an overriding danger. Ie, I would not have encouraged a child to "find themselves" at college. They better darn well know who they are and what they are there for. They better have a good relationship with home and family and have a maturity and courage to stand out like a sore thumb. My dd was correct in saying that it was not worth the risk if she could not find a safe haven somewhere - ie nowhere to avoid the in your face sin. If you are working, you come home to someplace set up to remind you of God, for prayer and are not living with a constant surrounding of sin. In college you can carve this out, but if you cannot, then it isn't worth the danger. Some people live at home, others find a quiet dorm and good roommates, some live off campus to get away from the nuttiness. You have to look at the whole picture. The reason my dd would not have gone if her dorm had not been changed, is the very real awareness that she could not deal with not having a haven.
In the beginning of my dd high school years and before that, we never promoted college and were relieved that she didn't want it. I never dreamed we'd do what we have done. But, no, we don't foot the bill. It is not because we refuse to help with our dd staying on campus or anything like that. Our children simply know that we don't consider the payment for college as part of our obligation for them. We may help if we are able, but it is primarily their responsibility (just as it is their responsibility to pray and seek God's path for their life). It doesn't mean we don't join them in all of this. So far our oldest has not needed any financial help from us - other than advice on balancing the checkbook and filling out tax forms. As much as we might like to support our children at someplace orthodox, those schools are priced astronomically. It is beyond the means of anyone paying their own way. Had one of these very orthodox schools had a really good music school, we certainly would have done and tried to put together some way for her to be there. But it was absolutely crazy to send her there when they didn't offer her anything in her degree (and believe it or not, we were advised that it was the only place she shold go). I just cannot imagine it. A mega debt by the time of graduation is a huge problem and one we would highly advise against. But if they had had her degree choice, we would have encouraged her to apply, compete for scholarships, pray and see what happened. We certainly would have helped as much as possible but right now she is footing her entire bill where she is - a combination of scholarships and savings and accompanying jobs. Would we help her if she needed it? Yes, if we were able and we continued to see her doing such a good job spiritually, morally and academically.
However, we do look at the doors that open and the doors that close being part of what may hint at where God is leading, so we would be cautious.
You keep looking at things year by year. Right now we are discerning with her whether or not we should re visit the car on campus - primarily so she has means of getting to Mass and spiritual support off campus. She has found a parish off campus that is more reverent and in line with church teaching. She is pursuing a bartering arrangement with another girl - reduced accompanying fees for a drive to Mass here. We'll see what happens, but I personally feel that getting access to more solid spiritual support is essential and worth quite a bit of sacrifice - even us going to one car so she can have the second if that is what it takes.
We were very much a part of her discernment process from the beginning and remain so - and should be. When the decision was made, all 3 of us really knew it was the right one. It was not what I thought we would have done even a year earlier. Just be prepared for God to surprise you! Seriosuly!
Janet
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chicken lady
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| Posted: April 24 2007 at 10:34am | IP Logged
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[/QUOTE]
We live near a large Amish community. I find them inspiring. . Their community cares for one another and no one's needs go unmet. I see a lot to emulate in their vision of family and community.
[/QUOTE]
I too live near a large Amish settlement and second this whole heartliy!!! We as Catholics could stand to learn alot from them 
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Karen S.
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Thoughts from the non-college end...I chose not to go to college because all I had in my immature "I know it all" mind at 18 was to get out of my parents house as quickly and cheaply as possible. With this rebelling attitude began my downward spiral. How much heartache I brought upon my parents, siblings and myself. So, what does this have to do with college or not? My hope is that I prepare my girls with hearts for JOY-Jesus,others, yourself. I hope that in the short time I am alloted to educate their minds/hearts/souls, I will be doing so looking out for God's plan for them so I can help them to discern His will for them using the gifts He has bestowed on them. Lofty ideas which I am sure are in the hearts of all who read this. We all want God's will for our children, Heaven. The path for each of us there is unique. If only I can instill in my girls this one truth, Heaven is the goal. Then path each one takes will be a true living in the will of God. There will be both good and bad no matter the path but will they be of mind/heart/soul to deal with the many choices they will face? Let us pray for all our children and each other as we journey moment by moment on to Heaven in love.
p.s. I did later go for schooling in massage therapy and received certification. That's been on the back burner for awhile but brought great healing to my soul.
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JennGM
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I just wanted to share a few thoughts in reading this thread. I haven't read Coffee Wife's posts yet.
I was homeschooled through much of my high school. I came from a good Catholic family, I admit I was sheltered, and tried to discern early what was my calling, religious or married. I tried my lot at a convent, still toyed with the idea in another order, but I finally discerned marriage was my calling. I was solid on that decision by 25, wanted to be married for much longer...but didn't get married until age 33.
My mother didn't have a college education, but my father did. I didn't have encouragement or direction on HOW to get into college, where to go when I was at that crossroads, so it took me years to finally finish my degree. I did part time and sometimes full time from the local community college. And in the meantime I worked in various places to earn money (to pay for my car and such).
When I was 27 I went away to Franciscan Univ. of Steubenville to finish my undergrad. And I did that because even though I felt called to married life, my spouse was taking a long time in coming. I was unable to support myself, nor was I able to really do the things I wanted to do. I wanted to be a teacher, and you need a degree. And in other areas that I tried, the lack of a degree closed doors or put a ceiling over how far I could go. I wasn't looking for a high paying career, but if I needed to be a single woman living in the world, I needed that degree.
A great deal of healing happened when I received that degree at age 30. I wasn't putting so much stock in that paper, but a sense of accomplishment. I completed something I started.
I know that's my personal story, and I went to a Catholic college. But truly, it makes me think of a different angle for women. I don't view college as a mere intellectual place, but it is a growing place for your child. Yes, there are some major problems in schools, but you are forming your children now. There will be a point where they need to leave the nest. I view college as a place where they are still protected, but can find themselves (and not in a bad way).
I was the oldest of 7, learned my housemaking skills, helped raise my siblings...but this going away (even at a late stage of life) was a gentle way of cutting the apron strings and finding my own way. How would I do living on my own? Can I manage money? How are my house/room mate skills? What are my subject interests? How are my study habits? Socialization, what do I do? Prayer life? Music? Self-Discipline? Exercise and Eating?
Truly, for many of your children this will be the first test, but still in an environment that won't allow them to completely fail. And even on the most liberal campuses, there are places, people, and groups to find like-minded. My dh went to Penn State, a very liberal state college and managed to keep his faith, in fact it helped it.
If you form your child correctly, give them trust, they usually will do fine. Most of us on this board were in completely different upbringing, frames of mind, another spiritual plane then your children are now. I have found even at the most conservative Catholic campuses (more than one) that the families that don't trust, overshelter their child, and send their son or daughter to these conservative schools find underage drinking, smoking, unwed pregnancies. Yes, the very conservative ones. The "evil" is still there, because it's a new found freedom.
I consider a college degree almost a necessity, even for girls. There are several reasons. If your daughter wants to enter a convent, many times the requirement is 4 years of college or equivalent in working in the world. If your daughter thinks she wants to be married, the degree is an asset in the marriage...in VA there is one law for homeschooling with your own curriculum if the parent has a college degree.
And if that knight in shining armour doesn't come, or the vocation is to remain single, the college degree helps to be more successful in the career world, which, you pray, will lead your dc to sharing their talents and earnings with the Church and others.
AND, if they are using college correctly, they can use that time to learn to think on their own....and the other skills I mentioned above. I'm not endorsing pride in intellectualism, but there is balance.
There are some "trade schools" that give a type of degree or training in an area. If my daughter just was so opposed to college, I would encourage her to do something like that. There are members of Opus Dei who get training in Chicago at Culinary Institute.
Some of you mention learning the hair styling. While I think a beaticians degree is a fabulous asset, that area is not immune to things that can "bring someone down". It's not only colleges.
I guess my thinking is a college degree can be such an asset in so many ways. I've met too many SAHM who regret later on that they didn't finish or get an undergrad degree because they see it later on. Although we don't like so much of what we see in our society, college education isn't an evil, and it's not wrong to follow society's lead and gain a degree for our benefit. I think what needs to be thought out is what TYPE of degree, and teaching our children how to gain the most out of this time of their lives.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to  & ds1  '03 & ds2  '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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JennGM
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| Posted: April 24 2007 at 2:04pm | IP Logged
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Sorry...my post is so long. I just had scattered thoughts I wanted to share!
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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insegnante
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| Posted: April 24 2007 at 2:28pm | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
| Sorry...my post is so long. I just had scattered thoughts I wanted to share! |
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I appreciated your thoughts! Although you were single when you finished school, so much of what you describe is related to why I want to continue working toward a degree when and if it does not interfere with living my vocation of wife and mother.
Who knows how society will have changed by the time any daughter I may have is of college age, but I think my experience having not taken the direct path from high school to a college degree (which I felt was generally expected of girls in my high school environment) has made more aware and less dismissive of both the value of a college degree and the possibilities of life without one.
Theresa
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Bookswithtea
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These quotes are from the Elijiah Co. Resource Guide. Elijah Co was a front runner in the early Christian hs movement, but are now out of business. Their old catalogues were just excellent, imho....full of articles with lots of wisdom.
Under the heading But What About College?...they list the usual reasons to think twice...the cost, the environment, etc.. and then this:
"A third reason is that graduating from college no longer means that a person is highly educated. More than half of all college seniors fail general knowledge tests of basic history and literature. Also, a college education no longer guarantees financial success, nor is a degree essential to getting a good job. Seventy percent of all jobs in the US require only on-the-job training or some other form of alternative education.
None of the twenty career field listed by the US Dept of Labor as the fastest growing occupations require a four year degree. For these and other reasons many home schooling families are considering alternatives to college.
Harvey Unger in his book, "But What If I Don't Want To Go To College?", says that there are really only two good reasons to send a child to a traditional four year college: First, the child has a deep desire to study academic subjects such as history, literature, or philosophy. Second, he has a deep commitment to career goals that require a four year degree (such as medicine or law).
....Statistics also show that only around 15% of those who earn college degrees actually find themselves working in their degree field. This is another reason to think twice before sending a child to college before he has a clearly understood reason to be there." (pages 242-243, copyright 2004)
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These few paragraphs continue to affect my own thinking on the subject of traditional 4 yr college. My personal experience is that almost EVERY friend I graduated from college with is in a different field and is making less money than men I know with a high school degree plus training and moving up the ranks over time. The only people who are actually using their degrees are the ones who have teaching credentials. One has a business degree and at age 30 was a manager at Domino's, making probably less than $10 an hour.  Others are secretaries or hold other lower level office type jobs. Another took a job with Apple in a fix it type shop.
By contrast, my first married social circle (La Leche League) had lots of young married wives with husbands who did things like work for the electric company, worked in construction, managed warehouses, etc. These men were making $35,000 or more before they were 30, owned their own homes (albeit starter homes) and most are now making more than my friends with the teaching credentials now (70,000-80,000 range).
Honestly, I am not convinced that college is the way to financial security. A good trade license can be infinitely more valuable. Even the doctor is dependent on a good auto mechanic (someone who usually only has 2 years of trade school).
And I have to ask myself, if college isn't any kind of guarantee of a good career, and my child has already read Shakespeare, Dickens, Twain and Austen in hs high school, and has a good hs grounding in history and theology, then what are they getting out of college that is worth the $100,000 its going to cost to graduate (assuming a loyal Catholic school)? Finding oneself, learning about the great books is all good and fine, but honestly, I just don't think its $100,000 worth of "fine."
We aren't going to foot the bill for college. I graduated with honors, but I never did appreciate my degree the way my friends who paid for it did. We are committed to helping them as we can to launch into their vocations and careers (without going into debt). If I have some money to offer, I would rather put it toward a portion of the cost of trade school, offer room and board at home, and help them to get established as a small business owner when trade school is complete. I think that's where the future $$$ jobs are, and that doesn't require a liberal professor's take on James Joyce, kwim?
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Blessings,
~Books
mothering ds'93 dd'97 dd'99 dd'02 ds'05 ds'07 and due 9/10
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JennGM
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One more thought I meant to include. What keeps coming back to me is that here we are, women, going over what we think where the education of our children should go. And it's right and good. But so many times as the woman and mother we have a tendency to protect, sometimes overprotect. I know at times I want to create a greenhouse around my son, so he doesn't have the bad influences of the world.
That's where my husband comes in. He's such a blessing! It seems most men have a gift of seeing the world and how we fit in a different way. Mine sees the evil, but he doesn't run and hide. He can identify, separate, find the good. He also has a talent of understanding what tools we need to prepare our child for the world. He's my balancing act, my sounding board. When my thoughts become too much of "run and hide" or "the world is evil and out to get us" he brings me back to a middle ground.
He is so great in the idea that we are forming our child to send him out into the world.
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Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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doris
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JennGM wrote:
He is so great in the idea that we are forming our child to send him out into the world.
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Great thread. I can't possibly do justice to it. But I heartily agree with Jenn's dh.
Of course everyone must discern what's best for their own situation and God-given talents. That might not be higher education for everyone. On the other hand, as others have said, university can present as many aids to faith as challenges to it. If anything, going out into 'the world' after the fairly protected nature of *some* university/college/chaplaincy experiences can be the hardest transition to make.
I browsed a bit around Coffee Wife's blog. What worried me was that because she'd had a bad experience at college -- with feminism, peer pressure, occasions of sin etc -- she's now very anti. That's just not the case for everyone. For some people, it's quite the opposite.
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Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days
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Cay Gibson
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doris wrote:
| I browsed a bit around Coffee Wife's blog. What worried me was that because she'd had a bad experience at college -- with feminism, peer pressure, occasions of sin etc -- she's now very anti. |
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I've been away from the computer today but appreciate all your great posts and am anxious to relax sometime tomorrow and read through them.
Elizabeth, about your concern, she writes this in her "Posting from Experience" link:
"Let us all clear the thorns and the vines away from the path so that it becomes obvious to all women that there is another way to live life to the fullest - a way that does not require superiority or inferiority of any woman. Let us become Ladies and work at our Lady's Education for our entire lives regardless of what our culture says. Let us, if we so desire, stay home or enter careers without feeling guilty. Let us go to college or be self-educated without feeling as if we are doing something wrong. Let us remain in our father's house until we marry or go live in apartments without apologizing to anyone.
I don't think she's completely anti. About her personal experience, yes. But she doesn't harbor any anti-ism towards others going if that's what they are called to do.
In her moral issues I have with colleges/universities she posts red flags that women should look into before attending a college/university. I think that's a good thing. We can heed them or reject them; it's our choice. She gives a list of "Ask yourself:" then, at the end, writes: "If you answer these questions in the positive then go ahead and become a college student. I am not trying to convince you that college is "of the devil."
So I do see lots of caution in her postings and, yes, anti- in speaking for herself; but she makes it clear that she is only cautioning us...not making the decision for us.
JennGM wrote:
That's where my husband comes in. He's such a blessing! It seems most men have a gift of seeing the world and how we fit in a different way. Mine sees the evil, but he doesn't run and hide. He can identify, separate, find the good. He also has a talent of understanding what tools we need to prepare our child for the world. He's my balancing act, my sounding board. When my thoughts become too much of "run and hide" or "the world is evil and out to get us" he brings me back to a middle ground.
He is so great in the idea that we are forming our child to send him out into the world.
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Jenn, this is such a great thing for us to ponder, and I whole-heartedly agree.
My dh is this way also and I try to listen to him even when my heart gets in the way. They seem to "know" the truth of things while we are so focused on the nitty-gritty that we forget the obvious. Kind of like seeing the dust on the lamp shade rather than the romantic glow of the light underneath.
They are so wise. Really.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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ALmom
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Jenn, what a full and thoughtful post. Yes - so much of what you said is so true and some of what I see happening for our dd and us. There is some confidence gaining going on, a first attempt to live her faith in the world as opposed to in the home. She was always poised and articulate and has always known exactly what she wanted - very decisive even when grandparents wanted her to pick out any toy from Toys R U when she was just a toddler - but still there is something that is happening. Both of us have laughed at how nice it is that I don't know how far she has worked on a term paper, and due dates and scheduling nightmares. She is handling that on her own and proud of it - and then after the fact I find out that she just likes to plan and get things done early and..... It is a growing time for mom and dad as well as her. We are continuing that learning to let go that began subtley - not that it couldn't and doesn't happen many other ways - but it is a positive. I think one thing that has so struck me in this whole process is how the loving relationship and communications between us is what opened my eyes to how good her decisions were. You train them for this going out, yet until the new moment to let go more is upon you, you simply cannot imagine doing it. When the girls were little, we did want to create that haven - and rightfully so. Then as they grow, you grow with them. I felt I'd be real nervous about dd driving - but when the time came, it was such a blessing. We never thought we'd have a peaceful night with her off in college - but in all these little mommy fears, we kept a certain perspective that we had to be open and listen to what really should be done now (not what the homeschoolers we hung out with thought, nor the secularized adults who thought we were overprotective, nor even our own preconceived notions about exactly how things were supposed to go. We trusted God to guide us even as we prudently researched real circumstances, issues, etc. and made sure dd was aware of what she might face - ie if this is the path she seems to be drawn towards, lets make sure all the loose ends are put together to equip her to handle it. Somehow you just know when the time is right. I guess that is where a lot of prayer and discernment comes in. We helped her gather information, do the application process to some extent, shared our insight - but it was her decision and it was her articulate explanation of her thought processes that gave us such peace. (Well that and God giving us a real sense that she was doing a good job discerning His will for her). She talks to us so much, shares so much, even asks advice - I do think that the trust we feel for her, helps her to feel free as one adult to another to ask us for our advice. And she has generally followed it. College, seems to be confirming for her everything we have cautioned her about, advice we have given over the years. It is so funny because we expected that affirmation to come from the parish (and it generally didn't) but she sees the people around her messing up because no one gave them the kinds of support and guidance we've given her and she appreciates us so, so much. She has always been a good kid and all but that appreciation just blossoms.
I guess what I've tried to share in saying all this about our journey with our first is that as parents, we don't pre-plan their life for them. We speak of all the values and teachings so critical - both by example and explicitly We never spoke much about college one way or another - until the child expressed a desire. We tried to help her find an orthodox Catholic school to apply to - but that not being available for her, we tried to help her weigh a lot of things and talked to her about her thought processes. A college environment is not a great place for a confused or rebellious child. It can be a very large blessing (even a secular college can do this) for a basically well formed child - as long as they have enough humility to recognize that none of us are immune to temptation, regardless of where we are.
In the whole process, I'm learning to let go of my own prejudices and try to be aware of different paths and 2nd dd benefits from this learning as I don't hyperventilate when she wants to go hunting or wear camoflauge pants as if she might be rejecting her feminine nature (this same dd is also the one who almost always wears skirts - but when she needs to be really, really active she goes to the hunting department because that is "the only place they don't mess with the pants". I must say we tend to have a tendency to assume college in our minds - but I guess I just didn't think I could presume to know God's plan for my child when they are 8, 9, 10 yo as regards college and was more concerned about closing doors that God might want open. Who knows what will happen. I do not want my children to feel forced to go to college or major in a certain field just to please mom and dad. It is God's plan for them that is important. I think about Saints - some fled to monasteries to get away from sinful cities - others went right in to save those souls. It all depended on God's call.
Janet
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asplendidtime
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Susan wrote:
>>As I mentioned in my previous post, not all women want to be a wife and/or mother. This is not "wrong". After all, the Church was one of the first to allow women to live a single life as a nun! There were many who advised our church fathers, acted as teachers, doctors, nurses, etc. and achieved sainthood after all! (The only one that comes to mind is St. Teresa of Avila at the moment, although I am sure there are others.)<<
It is interesting to note that St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Sienna, and St Therese of Lisieux... All recognised Doctors of the Church were none of them products of the "schools of higher learning". Two of them contemplative nuns and one a domestic servant!
Also the fact that I constantly hear from college/university persons, that they "learned to think at university" or they "learned to research" at university just shows a tremendous lack in the Secondary school system in general (if we aren't teaching young people to think, what are we teaching them?).... Why is it that our society is relegating only to those who have the financial resources (or loans) to get the opportunity to learn to think? Is that saying that a man or woman who has a trade cannot think? That is simply not true.
Maybe what they are really trying to say, is that they grew up, and they learned how to think as an adult while at college...? I didn't attend a college, I qualified and was accepted to three Canadian universities, but wanted to discern my vocation in a contemplative monastery. I feel that experience taught me to think. But I also think it gave me the time to mature and grow and become my own person outside of my family unit, so I had the feeling that I had changed...? Due to my mother's almost fatal car accident, I returned home, met a wonderful man, who works with his hands, and have been very happy, continuing my education at home.
...Some positives are definitely, not having to pay back a debt, so no pressure on us that I maybe should work until "my debts" are paid off. My own sister-in-law has been living with this pressure since she married my brother five years ago. I feel sorry for her, as she has student loans to pay back, a car to pay for, childcare costs, and the demand on her time. And it is difficult for her to find a job that pays well enough to make it worth it. Not to mention juggling maternity time... Having to deal with the emotional pressure of putting children in daycare, etc...I thank God I don't have those problems.
Thankyou to everyone who is sharing their thoughts, I am really interested in how it looks on "the other side" of the fence!
My dh had a serious car accident on April 2nd, I attribute it to the late Holy Father that he walked away completely uninjured. I am very sobbered to know that I might be one of those widows right now, if things had been different. I had read things at that time, where people were writing that you can't live in fear of the "what ifs", because of course that is what I was thinking.
But to be realistic, if I was in that position my options would be different now than they would be in 5 years. How can I plan for it? Who's to say that one should? I would trust God and make sure that I was leaning on Him and He would help me to take care of my children. He would open the windows I would need to accomplish my mission on this earth. I have every confidence in Him.
I hope my girls/boys will put God's call first and foremost on their agenda regarding what they will do when they turn 18, 19, or 20. We are trying to teach them to give God their best and the first chance. So discerning a vocation is what we think they should be first considering. But that said we are open to what God has for them, so if that means post-Secondary education then so be it.
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Rebecca~Mama to
Noah 17,
Katie 16,
Mary 14,
Tim 13,
Jonah 12,
Josh 10,
Zoe 9,
Will 7,
Peter 6,
Laura-Mae 4,
Emily-Joy 2,
Genevieve & Gabriella 1
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Cay Gibson
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7smallones wrote:
| It is interesting to note that St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Sienna, and St Therese of Lisieux... All recognised Doctors of the Church were none of them products of the "schools of higher learning". Two of them contemplative nuns and one a domestic servant! |
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Rebecca,
I loved your post. WOW! 
I was just thinking of the above scenerio the other day. What examples are there out there of people who made more of themselves without a higher education?
Laura Ingalls Wilder comes to mind. She didn't begin the LH books until in her 60's.
Others? Let's have a roll call for prosperity.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
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Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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JennGM
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Cay Gibson wrote:
7smallones wrote:
| It is interesting to note that St Teresa of Avila, St Catherine of Sienna, and St Therese of Lisieux... All recognised Doctors of the Church were none of them products of the "schools of higher learning". Two of them contemplative nuns and one a domestic servant! |
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Rebecca,
I loved your post. WOW!
I was just thinking of the above scenerio the other day. What examples are there out there of people who made more of themselves without a higher education?
Laura Ingalls Wilder comes to mind. She didn't begin the LH books until in her 60's. |
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There are many, many others, mostly because higher education wasn't available for women.
Rebecca, you had some good points. My point about getting to college to learn to think for yourself was something that Janet elaborated. Yes, you are giving your children a good education right now, and they are thinking on their own. But it wasn't until I was "on my own" in those classes that I had to think and defend my faith, my beliefs, the Truth, BY MYSELF. Maybe thinking or learning isn't a good phrase...perhaps it would be more appropriate to say it was finally the opportunity to put my childhood training into action. I was using the tools.
My teachers were no longer friendly faces like my mother or a Catholic school. My texts were no longer hand-picked. In community college I had some doozies of professors, some opinionate, some blatantly anti-Catholic, others presently biased texts as factual. It was a wonderful opportunity to "test my wings" so to say.
Are there other ways to do this? Yes. Is college the only way? No, but I found it to be a natural progression.
__________________
Jennifer G. Miller
Wife to & ds1 '03 & ds2 '07
Family in Feast and Feria
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: A Lady's Education
