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amyable
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 4:08pm | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
A dear hs mom friend of mine has taught all her children that master's degrees are the minimum for their family.  I don't often voice these thoughts because I fear how they will be perceived.
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My dh's uncle used to tell his children, "You can be a doctor, or a lawyer. Or both. Preferably both."   That family now has a lawyer, a doctor, and a PhD (philosophy). But none of them have spouses or children to love. None of them really seem truly happy! They seemed to strive for the education/degree as an end to itself, instead of it equipping whatever call the children had.
I guess there could be a way to work "definite Master's degree" into one's calling, but it seems backwards.
Luckily my dh isn't as bad as his uncle (his Godfather!), but I worry he has listened to that too much and been blinded to the greater reality.
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Amy
mom of 5, ages 6-16, and happy wife of 
The Highly Sensitive Homeschooler
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 4:12pm | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| I married into a family of men who work with their hands and proudly support their wives and children. |
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I absolutely LOVE meeting men like this!
Bookswithtea wrote:
| "Yes, dear, you can be a garbage man, but you will be a garbage man who has read Shakespeare!" |
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Bookswithtea wrote:
....I was exposed to lots of ideas that would have been better left alone, and I nearly lost my head to radical feminism. When I think of all that money and how it could have been spent more wisely, I feel  . |
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Yep...here too.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I sometimes wish I had learned to cut hair instead...infinitely more practical. |
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I joke that secretly I hope my girls will be hair dressers and manicurists! How wonderful for ME when I'm 50-70 years old!
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I have concerns about the college environment. Its no more 'the real world' than public school, imho. Where else are you exposed to all sorts of weird ideas, 24/7, while you sleep in dorms with people who aren't your family (and may not even be your friends) and don't have the support of your family and your longtime friends to ground you? |
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Yes! Yes! Yes! I had written this too. You're so right.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I feel like a freak sometimes, even among hs moms, for thinking things like this. I don't often voice these thoughts because I fear how they will be perceived. |
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Me too. I think I have only found ONE friend who agrees with this. They look at me like I have two heads.
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Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
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chicken lady
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 4:14pm | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
It boils down to the fact that I wish I never went to college and instead went to some kind of "mommy training school" ).
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I too keep writing and deleting my thoughts here. This statement struck me to the core. I will attempt to say this nicely, if I fail don't throw tomatos at me 
If women would accept their roles as Mary our example in all humility, than I believe men could and would be men. Women want out of the home, they will take jobs for less pay, so companies will hire them instead of fathers attempting to provide for their familes. I feel like shouting let men be men, women get out of the way, honor our differences, bring back our lost culture and family values.
Where are all the male school teachers of years gone by? We have women taking our boys and teaching them to be women  Or worse medicating them for being boys
This is one example of flipped roles that I consider to be a by product of "we are all equal", get the girls out in the work force, teach them to be men, and walk away from their vocations.
This mentality is what has lead me to teaching women my age basic skills, that a mere 2 generations ago were normal.
As for needing a career in case something happens to your spouse, well we haev a beautiful example ofthis living down the road from me. A dear friend of mine from college, lost her dh 2 yrs ago while she was pregnant with their 7th child. And guess what, she stays home, educates her children, and we all help to care for her as a widow and her orphaned children. That is our job, we are our brothers keeper!! When we have a society that understands this and we pull together it is not difficult, it is rather a joy, a true blessing.
OK enough, told you I get excited on this topic Cay Now remember no tomatos
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 4:25pm | IP Logged
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It was always assumed that my bros and sis would go to college, except for one of my sisters who had learning disabilities. I bought into the whole feminist ideal. I went to a university and saw all of that “stuff” that Coffee Mom talked about in her posts….you know….all that gross, horrible stuff. I enjoyed college because of the learning, reading, activities, etc. but that other stuff was always present.
Three years in college were spent as a Resident Assistant. Again, I saw it all. Way more than I care to remember. I worked for several years very focused on earning potential, my career, and MYSELF.
All this nonsense ended when I went back to the Church after moving to Seattle for a job. I reverted, quit my full-time job and took a part-time job…I didn’t want any man I dated to see me as a working woman who would continue once we got married. I began reading, studying, praying……all of a sudden the world opened up for me. The “Science of Relations” (as CM calls it) suddenly fell into place. Everything clicked….politics, religion, morals, values, literature, current events, family life……in this new paradigm, it made sense. When I was in the other way of life….nothing ever made sense…..
My father and I disagree wholeheartedly about this. I believe that nothing I learned in college could not have been learned through self-education, research, reading or from my parents (or other adults) had I lived with them as an adult for awhile. He thinks I am selling my college education short. I disagree. As Tina said, it made me more “worldly” and certainly all experiences add up to who you are. Even bad experiences have positive outcomes. There were good friends, good experiences, etc. along with the nonsense.
But, was there a better way to spend those 4 years? Definitely.
Were those Godly-years? No, but that was not foremost on my mind. (hopefully this will be different with my dd)
Could I have been educated for my life-long vocation as wife and mother in other ways? Definitely.
Do I value a college education and think there is worth to a degree? Yes. Especially for people for whom getting a job and having a career are important. (men and the occasional female).
Is it the ONLY way for good earning potential and a career? Definitely not. The working world is just DYING for good, hard-working, thinking, self-sufficient individuals……degree or not. Will you make “good money” right off the bat? Perhaps not, but you will eventually.
Are there other ways to prepare to become an educated “Lady,” a mother, a wife? Absolutely. Lots of other ways.
I will not outwardly encourage the traditional concept of “college” in our house. I will encourage EDUCATION. Like Janet said, “I try to remember that I am not in charge of deciding their future and am simply a guide in finding the path God has called them to. I cannot stand in their way. However, I do need to remain a parent and honestly share insights with them. So for instance, we ask questions about why the choice, what vision they see, etc.”
If dds called to a college degree, after much prayer and discernment, like Janet talked about, Fine. I will support them, of course. Like Celeste and Tina, we also believe in paying your own way.
I will definitely not encourage living on campus, though. If they are set on it and really want to, I can’t stop them. But, I will never pay for it, and I will discourage it. There are those campuses where the nonsense and the devil is lessened (like Franciscan)….but they are few and far between.
I tell my dad and my mom that most of the things I use everyday as a mom/wife, I learned from them and from my own fact-finding missions. Food science (both my parents are scientists in diff’t capacities), cooking, health, nutrition, research, writing, reading, problem solving, finances, home improvement, sewing, cleaning…..oh how the list goes on. Had I lived at home with them for a few more years……!!!!!!!
And then there are those things that I work on everyday: patience, humility, faithfulness, love……..you know, all THOSE things!???? Only Holy Mother Church has the answers to those things.
__________________
Suzanne in ID
Wife to Pete
Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 4:32pm | IP Logged
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amyable wrote:
I want to equip my children for their calling, not help them grow obstacles they have to plow through afterwards.
To "find oneself" in college seems to be dangerous business (a very few colleges excepted). |
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Well said, Amy.
Yes, very dangerous indeed!
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Suzanne in ID
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Mom of 7 (Girls - 14, 12, 11, 9, 7 and Boys - 4, 1)
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Maryan
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 4:39pm | IP Logged
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This has been an interesting discussion ladies! And I agree with Celeste too -- I don't believe college for all is necessary or proper, but a college education definitely has positives. And I think how the *mom* presents the purpose of a college education does wonders to how you view education, marriage, family and "careers"...
Anyway, a couple of thoughts along those lines:
.- My grandmother was widowed at age 42 with four young children. Having a college degree (a rare possession for women of her time -- during the depression, no less) opened doors for her that would have been shut had she not received a college education. That education helped her provide for her children (as she had no desire to remarry after her husband died) and help pay for Catholic educations for her children. All four of her kids and their kids are still faithful to the Church.
- Therefore, knowing Gram's situation, my five sisters and I were aware that despite desires for a husband and family -- that may not happen in the manner we wish it. Vocations are callings from GOD, (and marriage is a call that involves TWO people) -- so until we received that call --- my mom encouraged us to get as much education as possible. She only allowed us to go to faithful Catholic colleges because she saw college as a four year retreat with Christ to prepare you for your vocation in life and/or your apostolate in the world. She also said you never know how God will allow use your education. And since having children is a gift from God and not something that happens automatically either, a college education may allow an infertile mom to be nurturing in a work setting such such as nursing or teaching.
- Anyaway, As a result all six girls got college degrees from faithful-to-the-magisterium Catholic colleges. I loved college -- I learned so much about the Faith, grew closer to Christ, and made many GREAT Catholic friends. I think my sisters feel the same way -- five of us are married to Catholic men and are all happy stay-at-home-moms (My Mom has 14 grandkids and counting). BTW- One of my sisters even has her masters in Catholic catechetics. And as Celeste pointed out, we are capable of helping our children grow in the Faith and other areas because of our education! My one single sister has her college degree, even discerned a religious vocation, but now happily works at a Catholic organization... and prays daily to and hopes to meet a good, holy Catholic man to marry. She is happy to help spread the faith through her work -- since she is not able to do so through her children!
So I understand your concerns, but I wanted to add my very happy experience with Catholic college. I worked very hard while I was in college to pay my way, and I left with $5000 worth of debt that I worked off teaching. And yes, it was a very small salary that I was paid -- but I don't think I was replacing a man; I think I was replacing the many nuns that we no longer have. (And again this is just a different viewpoint -- I hope no one is offended by MY view either!)
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Maryan
Mom to 6 boys & 1 girl: JP('01), B ('03), M('05), L('06), Ph ('08), M ('10), James born 5/1/12
A Lee in the Woudes
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Natalia
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 4:49pm | IP Logged
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This thread definitely strikes a cord with me. I have a master's degree. I was a Fulbright scholar. I still sometimes get the Fullbright alumni newsletters and I see that nobody is recognized for being a Fulbright scholar that stays at home raising kids and being a good wife. It has been a long road for me to feel content at home. I have grown in confidence in my vocation as a wife and mother but still sometimes I wish I had some recognition for my intellect -or what is left of it LOL!. I would like to feel that I have accomplished something. Thank God those moments are less and less.
I never even considered not going to college. It was the next logical step. I don't think I never, NEVER considered not going. But the world I live in now is different from the world I left behind. The college environment does the same thing that high school does: it engulfs the student it surrounds them and engulf them. I would say it is worse because the students are away from home. Frankly it scares me whether we are talking about girls or boys.
But still I have to say that I want my dd to continue her education. I know that we can continue our education on our own. We homeschoolers know about that. But I have to say that the education I have acquired as an adult is haphazard and disorganized. It is fragmented because my main focus right know is my family and my dh. The only systematic way of education I know after high school is college.I wish that I knew of other alternatives.Also I realized as I write that when I talk education here I am not talking about skills needed to get a job.I am talking about a liberal arts education-reading,writing, art,etc.So that leaves the question-what if our dd do not get married right away?
So how do you present this topic to your daughters? Is it something you rely on your example and your attitude to convey? or are you deliberate about it?
Natalia
PS i have to admit that I feel like somebody from another century even considering this topic 
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 4:49pm | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| The college environment is not normal. |
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Oh, my goodness, Books! How right you are. The college environment is not the norm. That is true. I never saw something so artificial in all my life as the college lifestyle.
Perhaps others have different experiences, but I remember those college days with a hazy glaze over them. True, I probably didn't apply myself as well as I should have but now, due to this discussion, I now know why.
(1) I was bored. Thoroughly bored.
(2) I was already dating my high school sweetheart (got engaged to him during these years) and my mind was already drifting to thoughts of children and homemaking.
(3) I now realize I didn't go to college for something I was passionate about. I went for data processing (which doesn't even exist today) and moved mechanically through speech classes, paralegal course, accounting class, computer class, economic lecture hall, etc. all the while wondering..."When am I ever going to use this stuff?" * I did consider becoming a paralegal at one point, thus the exposure to the class.
The literature class I took was attended by a handful of "popular people" (a cheerleader and a couple of football players) who dominated that class. I guess they needed that credit but they spent their time joking around with the professor and, thus, getting all the attention. The quiet, studious ones (like me) just sat there and listened to homecoming preparations and after-school partying. Pathetic! What a waste of time that class was for me.
Over the bridge and back...to and from...I spent a lot of time, gas, and money just turning my wheels and going no where.
Bookswithtea wrote:
| I sometimes wish I had learned to cut hair instead...infinitely more practical. |
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Oh, heavens!  It's so fun that you mentioned this, Books! Just last week I was thinking of my paternal grandfather who had a barber shop in front of his house and supported his family that way. No one has cut hair in the family sense.
We were driving into town and dh mentioned that we needed a new barber in town because, since the hurricanes in '05, we lost all but three barbers (this is not counting the places that ladies can go; I think there are plenty of those). And I began reminising about my grandpa and suddenly I thought of my second son and how this might be something I could guide him towards (if there's an interest of course). But it's one of those "other" possibilities.
My friend has a poodle and, while camping, she told me that after the hurricane, we lost all but three pet groomers in town. She said she has never had to pay the price she pays now for a groom because the groomers are in demand and can charge what they want. They are so busy that you have to schedule your pet's appt. a month or two in advance. I tell you what, if something happens that I need a good income, I might look into that. I wonder if my girls would be interested in pet grooming lesson. 
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Cay Gibson
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 4:58pm | IP Logged
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Bookswithtea wrote:
| A dear hs mom friend of mine has taught all her children that master's degrees are the minimum for their family. . |
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Due to our spring walk this afternoon. I am way behind on the posts but I love that you ladies are talking...and so intelligently too.
The above is my worse fear. I know that children will try to live up to their parents' expectations of them.
If we don't set college as a bare "minimum" for our children, will they set the bar lower for themselves and their purpose in life?
Yet, is college and master degrees the higher mark to pursue? There's a thin line there...
Must get supper.
__________________
Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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ALmom
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| Posted: April 23 2007 at 5:04pm | IP Logged
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I will say with Celeste that I loved the time to ponder ideas, and a lot that went with college life. I was at a private college and doing a lot of things I loved. It didn't misdirect me or lead me to sin - though there certainly were different things going on on campus and there were some pretty nutty experiments. I was steeped in Evangelism (I was Catholic and never left the church or ceased attending Mass due to parents but I was planning on becoming Baptist as soon as I was on my own)so that cushioned me when we were taught situational ethics. I knew just enough to know something wasn't right about what they were saying - and I needed to think more later when there was more time - but I also knew I'd never come out on top in an arguement with a Jesuit, at least not then, so I kept quiet( something I share with my dd as not the best approach since it is ultimately dishonest) got my A's and went on. Now, the particular institution I went to was not the most stellar representation of Orthodox Catholicism but God had a way of using some funny circumstances to help bring me around. I was surrounded by priests(and even if some of them couldn't decide whether or not they should wear the collar they really seemed like little boys trying to figure out what was what and they did have graces of their sacrament of ordination to help me even when they were a bit confused themselves), had access to the Sacraments easily, etc. The whole thing somehow fit into a plan and overall has benefitted me (mostly due to God's merciful protection of me in my naivete). A lot of confusion also resulted - but then I homeschooled and God has used my children ever since to fill in the gaps.
However, my oldest children are getting a better high school education than my college education, even with all my previously mentioned deficiencies(from other posts). I want to dig through their lesson plans more seriously once my last is in high school, but Celeste is right about there not being the same amount of time now. There is something valuable in that time to discuss and debate and the mothers will be the primary teachers in the home. Education, college or otherwise, is truely not just about getting a good job. However, part of the responsibility of the man is in being the provider so this certainly cannot be totally overlooked either.
The decision about college is so dependent on the talents and interests of the child and resources available at the time the decision has to be made. I do not think that a deep, pondering education is dependent on college attendance. It is more dependent on the availability of bright, energetic, people with whom to discuss and debate ideas and the availability of a good mentor. I do very much oppose a college exclusively via the internet. In the liberal arts, it is so important to meet, discuss, talk, debate - and you need other people to do this with. This is the one gap I find difficult to fill in a homeschooling environment. I find many women on this board (with and without college educations) quite capable of stimulating me to greater understanding of even academic subjects but of course my contact with you is limited to on-line and so is not quite the same. I have learned more about homeschooling from my sis who never went to college (and I took many education courses, including a philosophy of education) and sometimes it is the very pride that a college education can encourage that becomes the block to greater learning. Humility is always the beginning. I emphasize this over and over as I think it is a common temptation in the academic environment. I find very accomplished women on this board and have just recently discovered some have and some have not gone to college. I probably would have assumed you all had gone to college if I just had your posts to go by without mention of whether you have been to college or not .
I live in a community where the secular/worldly minded all insist on degrees from important institutions, where college is an assumed, where we constantly run into teens taking 6 + AP courses (and they are very bright kids, too) and where competition to get into big schools is intense - many wanting to get out of the south and compete in the ivy league. My children are surrounded by books and learning. It is very unlikely that my children would not value education or college on some level. It is part of the very air in our community, parish, etc. The bigger danger for my children is that they will assume they have to go whether they want to or not - so I have to make sure they know that college is one of many options to discern. I might emphasize college more if we lived in an environment that wasn't so pushy about college. The homeschoolers can and do compete in this academic high pressure status climb - but there is a large segment that are so afraid of the faith being destroyed that they don't want any children (especially not their girls who won't need to provide for families) going to college and they often are reacting to the very atmosphere that sees college from a very materialistic, status driven point of view. I understand the concern for the creeping materialism and the devaluing of motherhood and real dangers. However, I sat through some talks that really got under my skin and couldn't pin point it for a while. I want all my children to be capable (my boys can cook and clean and do repairs around the house and my girls cook, clean and help where needed in other areas as well) in a wide range of areas, but I do want them to appreciate their respective identity as young women or young men. College ideas often promote the unisex ideas - but so does just about all of society. I understand the concern and the need to emphasis the vocation of wife and mother and I do want my girls to value this. However, the absolutist statements that college is good or college is bad seems so misdirected. I have felt judged at times because I did not restrict my 2nd dd from hunting and sword fighting and one son seems to have a real love of cooking, that my oldest went to college and.... all the typical things it is easy to fall into judgements/pegging people from externals. In all of it, the circumstances are so different, but the principals remain the same. I love this board because serious minded people are trying to look at both the faith and reason, at the church's guidance and direction, at what is and is not valuable and then try to make a decision. But college is really a prudential judgement decision.
I have one son who may not be college minded. Academics are such a struggle - but he is young yet and St. John Vianney sure had trouble with his studies. I cannot read or plan the future for my children. I just don't want to get in the way and close doors on them or misdirect them and all of our children must be able to discern and detect error from truth, etc. I try to provide a challenging, well rounded education and then we take college one child at a time. I do want to be a parent and guide them realistically and help them through the questions and observations we share.
The children should see modeled for them (and also be taught the errors of our culture) the beautiful Sacrament of marriage and the joy of the vocation of wife and mother. They should see the dynamic of headship and helpmate (head and heart of the home) and the sacrifices we make for one another. They should see gratitude in us (one of those things I have to work on a lot). A lot of this teaching is hidden and not always explicit.
Our goal as family is primarily to help one another get to heaven. God has some plan and we should seek to conform our will to His in all we do. This is a prayerful discernment process. If we were all to go to college - then every Saint in the church would be like St. Thomas Aquinas. But we have St. Bernadette,. so many saints that were never highly educated by worldly standards. We also have St. Gianna Molla who did work after all. (I'm still pondering this one). We still have our Saints who were brilliant and involved in academia, who taught and preached or in the case of ST. Catherine, she wrote some very forceful letters to the pope. I don't know if Celeste is the same one who reviews my 2nd dd papers, but most of what is above about the saints was what she reminded me of in one of my tearful conversations about my worry for this child and it was just that kind of reminder that college is not the end goal - the end goal is heaven and when we keep our perspectives in the right place, we are better able to know what we are to do.
I finally decided that my discomfort with some of the judgements and assumptions flying had to do with taking what might be a prudential judgement with one child and making it an absolute for everyone. The church has always taught that parents do not have the right to dictate a childs future vocation. I must pass on the truth about the value of each of these vocations - but in the end, the child become an adult must choose the path for their future according to their discernment of
God's will for them. I try to look at each child and prayerfully help them find whatever that path may be. There is a nun at the Sister Servants who was a contractor and drove heavy equipment before becoming a nun. I figure God knew that and for some reason an interest developed that later served her religious community in ways that could not have been foreseen by anyone except God. I do not go out of my way to encourage masculine type interests in my dd - but do I become a tyrant when some interest develops of its own accord or do I allow some pursuit of an interest. I have chosen to be more flexible - to stand back in awe at the unique ways God has placed interests and abilities in each child.
My oldest initially had no desire for college. She loved sewing, cooking, music and though capable, she wasn't particularly drawn to academics. We were perfectly content with that. Then there was the curveball - college. She wanted to study piano performance. We tried to help her find a solid Catholic music school (not just program) etc. We would have preferred a very orthodox Catholic school to give her some of the opportunities we couldn't provide in homeschooling - particularly her need to mingle with other serious Catholics in large numbers. But the price was astronomical, the distance tremendous and no one had a serious music program so there wasn't even one to apply to. We asked her about her direction - she is still discerning, but expressed how music would serve her well no matter what vocation she had and it was a talent she really felt she should develop to the fullest. We asked about what she would do if she were called to a single life and she had realistic ideas for ways to use her talents and contentment with things. We also knew from how happy she was and how much better her prayer life got when she was so crazily busy with music (so much so that my stress was near bursting) - and that seemed to be a good sign that somehow God gave her talents and joys - and yes, they should be developed, even as she discerns where He might like her to use these. Her ideas about going to college were very clear - she had very specific goals (not necessarily career goals as she continues to insist she will be home with any children if she is called to marriage). I must admit tremendous nervousness when the whole college process first began - especially knowing that secular institution is where she would go. I just could not see sending my beautiful young daughter off to pagan college (and one known as a party school to boot). I knew I couldn't dictate her path - but I wasn't sure at first. We prayed, continued to discuss with her, etc. and in the end we all had so much peace about it. So many things worked out just so. We met the specific music professor she would be working with and knew the fit was perfect. We all were convinced that this is where God wants this daughter at this time. I realize she is only at the end of her first year - but I see tremendous positives. She went in knowing that temptation would be there, that none of us is strong enough to resist on our own and that she might be the lone voice in a sea of craziness. There aren't many serious Catholics, but she is having a great time in good, legitimate recreation and study and doing well in academics and music while remaining very strong in faith and convictions - even if she is different. She is loving her time there. We never cease praying for her spiritual and physical protection and discuss frequently access to solid support (often lacking). So, yes, the dangers are very real and no one should go into college blindly or blithley ignorant of those real dangers. But it is all about God's will and discerning that carefully. Our dd has really earned great respect from those around her (many of whom don't share her values but are somehow intrigued and in awe that this kind of life is possible and joyful and I believe God is using her right now to strew good among the people she is with who have never had the benefits of being taught the truth - and her personality is such that so far she has managed to do it without offending and yet not hiding either. She is making great progress on her instruments and learning plenty of useful things. But she also had clear rules for herself and had agreements with her roommates (no boys or alcohol in the room, ever regardless of campus policy) long before arriving on campus. She is following a courtship model and so far has explained to several young men about her call dad policy. She has gained so much in confidence. We continue to see signs that she is where she should be for now.
With our next child, this whole process will start all over again in a year or two.
Well, more musings and never succinct like Bridget (a skill much admired, btw). I'd better go get dinner so once again everyone is left with my endless wanderings.
Janet
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Meredith
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Wow, Suzanne, Amen sister!! What a great post!! Everyone has shared so much good stuff here, I can't add a thing only to say ditto 
Great thread!!
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Meredith
Mom of 4 Sweeties
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trish
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Wow! Here too. This is an excellent thread.
I have an 18 dd so I'm really interested in this.
And I really love to read coffee wife's posts!!
Thanks for starting this thread Cay.
Off to make supper too!
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~ Trish ~
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Saintly Soaps
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insegnante
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I'm reading this thread with great interest as someone who agrees with many of the more "countercultural" opinions expressed, or in some cases at least considers them worth thinking about, but also plans still a bit tentatively to take some college courses this summer and hopes more distantly to earn a bachelor's degree someday. I have boys 5 and 2 years old, so the topic of the thread hasn't occupied my mind much from a parental perspective!
I have prioritized raising my children, and bearing any new ones we are blessed with, over continuing my formal education. I cannot say that the following would be strictly "wrong" for anyone to do, but I do not want the desire for a degree to influence pregnancy postponement decisions at all, even if the timing of having more babies makes the difference between ever graduating and not. Also, we are likely to move within the next few years, and my top priority remains to choose the best environment in which to raise our children, not the location which might give me access to much better school opportunities.
I have already attempted a couple of classes this past Fall, but felt that it was in our family's best interest that I withdraw. Spring wasn't going to work so I didn't enroll in anything. Circumstances are a bit different now and the schedule and work this time around should be easier. (It's one online course, and one lab science that has me out 10-15 minutes away on Wednesday evenings and Saturday mornings.) I have earned something like 56-60 course credits already, depending on which school is evaluating them, but my attitude to school is both more goal-directed and more genuinely about training the mind than it was when my mother was paying for my earlier years at school. Even though I have about the number of credits it takes to get out of community college, I still need about 18-21 credits to finish the A.A. program in which I have enrolled as I have more lower-level transfer credits in certain areas than are needed.
I don't want to dissect thoroughly and publicly all the reasons for doing this, but it does have a lot to do with a contingency plan. I don't have much of a resume if "anything happens" and if my continuing college doesn't interfere with the needs of today, then it seems to be a good investment. My strongest aptitudes seem to be well-suited to development in a formal academic setting, and I think a degree or at least some more recent and focused academic work would make the outlook for work-at-home and flexible schedule (and higher-paying) opportunities vastly better than anything I could find now. My husband and I have thoroughly discussed the proper priority of my finishing college to my primary vocation, and the only thing left is for us to discern along the way whether we can still afford the time, money, and energy at a given time or for the foreseeable future.
Btw -- throughout high school, as an "honors" student at an all-girls Catholic school and someone who had always read voraciously, I had little interest in college. I wanted to get married, have lots of kids, and be a housewife! I'd tell people (but not the guidance counselor) that I wanted to be a secretary or a waitress while waiting for that to happen -- and if I "had to" go to college I figured I'd be a teacher. All of these jobs seem to have some of what mothers do in them! And if I have a daughter who's academically talented but wants to focus on saving money at honorable work of that sort while she discerns her vocation, I'm not going to suggest she's "wasting" her gifts and needs to get a degree and have something better-paying to "fall back on." But I hope that she'll be making more thought-out decisions than I did when I was younger about education, career, spending all that money on college with a goal in mind, etc. while hoping and waiting to find a husband and become a mother.
Theresa
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Cay Gibson
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Cay Gibson wrote:
The above is my worse fear. I know that children will try to live up to their parents' expectations of them.
If we don't set college as a bare "minimum" for our children, will they set the bar lower for themselves and their purpose in life?
Yet, is college and master degrees the higher mark to pursue? There's a thin line there...
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I stopped flipping a baking chicken to come correct myself. This is one statement I should have kept as a draft before posting so quickly.
I realized (while flipping that baking chicken) that to set the bar and goal at being a "good Christian spouse and parent" as a "bare minimum" is by far a higher setting (and goal and purpose in life) than college / master's degree.
What I meant to say, and you all probably read between the lines anyway , is I don't want to squelch a college education if that child could have pursued it and gained wisely from it.
In the end though I truly believe that training them to be hard workers...in their studies and their work... is better all the way around. I think I've done that with my older two. It's the younger ones I've gotten lax with. We are so comfortably laid back around here.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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Bridget
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I have thought about how we would survive if something happened to Kevin. Wondering if I should try for a degree or some kind of training. I decided there isn't anything I could do that would be worth leaving my children in day care or school to be raised by someone else.
It would be better to be poor and have my children about me. I can clean houses to supplement our life insurance. I clean very, very well and there is always a need for such services. The children could take turns working with me. We would be alright.
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God Bless,
Bridget, happily married to Kevin, mom to 8 on earth and a small army in heaven
Our Magnum Opus
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Tina P.
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On a lighter note, here's something I learned in college.
My then boyfriend (I dated him for a few months) and I strolled over to his sister's apartment for lunch. I expected her to be there, but she wasn't. Apparently, he wasn't surprised. We settled down to lunch and then to watch a soap opera (oooooh, I was bad). Then he started wanting more than to just watch a soap. I told him, "No thank you" in no uncertain terms. He became quite huffy (he was a track star and I guess thought he deserved it?). We fast-walked back to the campus across the street from each other. He shouted to me asking whether I wanted to be a nun. I shouted back, "Maybe I do!" You can imagine that just about sealed the fate of our relationship. And I suppose that I don't have to relate the moral of the story?
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Tina P.
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I had another couple of thoughts (then I have to rewarm the leftover ribs and potatoes from yesterday). A nursing career is a completely womanly career. College is required for that. What if your girl is interested in that direction? I'm sure that none of you would limit your children's desires and would, as someone said previously, prepare your children for what to expect and how to handle it.
And the other thought was what if your child (boy or girl) is excited about attending college at a very good, Catholic college but it is not close enough to home to commute? I know too, that there are several of us who can NOT afford Catholic college. But if our children still want to attend, to attain higher learning ... what then? At some point, we have to let go, all the while letting our children know that they can reach us whenever they feel it necessary.
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Tina, wife to one and mom to 9 + 3 in heaven
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Cay Gibson
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chicken lady wrote:
As for needing a career in case something happens to your spouse, well we haev a beautiful example ofthis living down the road from me. A dear friend of mine from college, lost her dh 2 yrs ago while she was pregnant with their 7th child. And guess what, she stays home, educates her children, and we all help to care for her as a widow and her orphaned children. That is our job, we are our brothers keeper!! When we have a society that understands this and we pull together it is not difficult, it is rather a joy, a true blessing.
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This is so heartwarming to read; we are indeed our brother's keeper.
Sadly this sentiment is lacking in today's rat race.
How do we change society's way of thinking which is: be independent, do your own thing, you do your thing and I'll do mine, don't bother me, yada, yada, yada...
The world is not nice. It wasn't nice even when Christ walked the earth. It wasn't nice after He died and resurrected though He showed us how to live. It's a dog-eat-dog world and the world will not be kind to our children.
How do we prepare them to be "in this world but not of it" especially when it took so many of us into our 30's and 40's to realize this ourselves.
Thanks for sharing.
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Cay Gibson
"There are 49 states, then there is Louisiana." ~ Chef Emeril
wife to Mark '86
mom to 5
Cajun Cottage Under the Oaks
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chicken lady
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Hopefully modeling it??? We do it one family, one choice at a time. You do it Cay, I know for a fact, your example is far reaching!
My family goal is Heaven not Harvard, secondary education is wondeful, IF, we are all striving towards holiness. To quote Mother Teresa, being willing to do the ridiculous, so God can do the miraculous.
Dh and I both come from families of intellictuals and we are both orphaned Catholics in our families. Not all who pursue academics lose their faith, but surely it lends itself to pride. Speaking first hand here
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cathhomeschool
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"College" I think gets more of a bad rap than it should. Yes, there are plenty of terrible, completely immoral campuses out there, but there are also many "ordinary" schools, in which one can find both bad and good. Many of us were in college when we were young and maybe immature. Had we left home and gone to work instead, we could just as easily have encountered people and circumstances that could have rivaled the things seen while in college. It is easy to look back and say that we would have been better off without college, but since we can't go back and relive that time, there is no way to know that for certain.
I personally feel that a college education is a good thing. I do believe that we need to be realistic about the future. When I was young and out of high school, I hoped to someday be a happily married SAHM, but I didn't know that I would be (hadn't met the right guy yet ) and I didn't know when that might happen. I had the opportunity to go to college, and so I did. And though I wanted to major in physics, I got a degree in engineering instead because I realized that a physics degree wasn't as versatile. I wasn't focused on money or career, but I did consider what I could do with a degree in X before choosing a major (from among my interests). I focused on my studies while at school and yet enjoyed it as well. I think that I benefit every day from what I learned. And though I hope that my husband will always be able to provide for our family, I also see the wisdom in getting a degree *if and when one can* because we never know what the future holds. There are plenty of jobs out there that a mother can do should the unthinkable happen to her spouse. I definitely do not think that one needs a college degree or that we ought to worry about the future. (We certainly shouldn't worry.) I am just saying that we should consider the opportunities that present themselves before us because we never know where God's path for us may lead. Every woman's situation is different, but I disagree with the thinking that a degree is "wasted" on a SAHM. No matter what we learn, it is never wasted IMO.
When considering whether or not to send a child to college, I think that it is prudent not only to consider the child's possible calling in life, but also their maturity level and personality. Is your child a follower? Do they go with the flow or get swept up by ideas? Are they mature enough to be on their own and study and focus without supervision? Some children are, and some are not. Are there any good friends (positive influence) attending a college where your child could go? Even the best person needs a good support network, and a "follower" might be alright if they are surrounded by a good crowd of kids while they are growing in faith and maturity. Could a child live at home while going to school? Or with extended family? Too often our society sends its children out into a world that they are not ready to meet. And the children are so ready to go! It is not so much college itself that is the problem, as it is the immense number of unprepared children that one will meet there. How many kids really know what they "want to be" at age 18? How many high schools and guidance counselors actually help them figure it out? How many 18yos have the maturity to make themselves go to class and study when they are "free?"
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: A Lady's Education
