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Kathryn UK
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| Posted: June 16 2005 at 2:42am | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
How do you all figure out how much is too much (with that kind of thing) and how much is not enough (talking here about time spent with children, dh, housecleaning and doing charitable work in one's own locality?)
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I think Elizabeth's guideline is a good one ... if you are stressed, grumpy and struggling to get everything done, but still spending time reading, chatting and researching, the balance is probably wrong. If you can still do everything ... or at least enough of everything to feel reasonably on top of things  ... and still be happy and cheerful then the balance is OK. Mostly I fall the right side of that; occasionally the wrong side.
I used to work part time in the evenings, and when I stopped working I made a conscious decision to use that time constructively - for now writing and working on curriculum seems to be what God has called me to do, so I do it  .
What I should be doing now is making breakfast, so I'd better go before contentment turns to grumpiness in this household .
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael,  Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: June 16 2005 at 11:05am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I know that for me, much of the researching and the planning and the agonizing over what has been best has been for my sake. It's been about my insecurities and my pride and, sometimes, just my own curiosity and desire to chat about all things educational . If it's truly for the children's sake, I think we can minimize a great deal. We need to be with them, to KNOW them, to pray with and for and about them, and then to trust God to show us what they need and how to provide it.Charlotte Mason, Maria Montessori, JOhn Holt, John Bosco--all of them stress observing the child. When we love a child, truly love him and sacrifice for him, God qualifies us to teach him well. |
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Dear Elizabeth,
Your words brought me to tears....  The truth is quite beautiful.
__________________
Blessings,
Brenda (mom to 6)
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: June 16 2005 at 11:33am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I have absolutely heard this. They are too busy with diapers and babies and toddlers etc.. and they have the humility to know that they don't have a background in education (though some of us think that's not worth much ) and they can't imagine being adequate or qualified enough to do the job justice. So they leave it to the "professionals" who have researched. Sometimes, the professionals are curriculum-in-a-box developers, but more often they are school administrators who have laid it all out and hired "qualified" people to implement. |
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Ah, I see. I wonder if this depends on where you live as I just don't encounter that very much.
But in my mind these parents (I say parents because I DO meet an occasional stay-at-home dad) need to really come to understand the importance of prayer and discernment in regards to homeschooling. To know that if God has called them to this there IS a way to do it.
That being said, I don't completely agree with the idea that mothers can be the best teachers their children could have. In the younger years yes but as they get older this just hasn't been my experience.
There are so many areas my older children surpass me and I simply don't have the time or knowledge to help them like they could be helped by someone else. These are times when I see that the good of having my children home and protected, while still the best option overall, CAN have drawbacks. It's part of the sacrifice that is too be had for homeschooling. I know that's not a popular thought here but I have to say it because I feel pretty strongly about it as I have come to realize it more and more over the last few years. I wish I had more time to go into this but I just don't. We're leaving tomorrow morning for a conference in Michigan and I have a zillion things to do today.
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| I do think it can all be summed up in the phrase "for the children's sake." I know that for me, much of the researching and the planning and the agonizing over what has been best has been for my sake. ...If it's truly for the children's sake, I think we can minimize a great deal. We need to be with them, to KNOW them, to pray with and for and about them, and then to trust God to show us what they need and how to provide it. |
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Yes, I agree, it IS for the children's sake and there ARE a lot of things we can minimize but there are also some things that are hard and no matter what they will still remain hard. If we can't acknowledge that we are doing ourselves and the women we speak to a disservice.
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| When we love a child, truly love him and sacrifice for him, God qualifies us to teach him well. |
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I'll be honest and tell you that I'm just not sure what this means. Experience shows me clearly that no matter how hard I pray and how well I know my child I will not be able to teach him trigonometry. I am not qualified. But I am going to assume this ISN'T what you are saying and instead ask for clarification. Please, please understand that I am not trying to be challenging here. I truly think this is an important topic and that this discussion is valuable. I know you are all just trying to do the best for your children and have a clear understanding of all this in your own minds. I am doing the same.
I really must go.
God bless!
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: June 16 2005 at 11:40am | IP Logged
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MicheleQ wrote:
| That being said, I don't completely agree with the idea that mothers can be the best teachers their children could have. In the younger years yes but as they get older this just hasn't been my experience. |
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One qualification here. I do think father's and mother's together MIGHT be the best teachers for their children. My dh works from home now and has taken over homeschooling the older kids. He is much better at it and far more qualified than I am. But I also recognize that this isn't possible in a lot of families. In an ideal world this would be my choice, BOTH parents actively homeschooling their children. Though I will say that there still could be areas that are lacking and need to be handled in other ways (co-op classes, tutor, etc.)
God bless!
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: June 16 2005 at 12:25pm | IP Logged
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MicheleQ wrote:
I'll be honest and tell you that I'm just not sure what this means. Experience shows me clearly that no matter how hard I pray and how well I know my child I will not be able to teach him trigonometry. I am not qualified. But I am going to assume this ISN'T what you are saying and instead ask for clarification. Please, please understand that I am not trying to be challenging here. I truly think this is an important topic and that this discussion is valuable. I know you are all just trying to do the best for your children and have a clear understanding of all this in your own minds. I am doing the same.
I really must go.
God bless! |
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Since we have talked to each other at great lengths about our limitations, you know I'm not teaching trigonometry. I find the MUS videos are working nicely. I don't teach Spanish or art either. God has put wonderful tutors in my path for both those subjects; clearly they were answers to prayer.
As to having both parents teach, I am sure that if Mike were at home fulltime,learning alongside us, we'd still have to find help in certain areas. For instance, neither of us plays the piano and Michael could draw better than both of us when he was eight. 
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: June 16 2005 at 1:32pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
| I find the MUS videos are working nicely. I don't teach Spanish or art either. God has put wonderful tutors in my path for both those subjects; clearly they were answers to prayer. |
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Yes, that's what I mean! See we really are on the same page. 
But that's why I think saying God qualifies us to TEACH isn't really accurate. God qualifies us (by virtue of the sacrament of marriage) to DISCERN what our children need and when. Even if that means finding outside help OR in some cases sending a child to school for a time. It has been my experience that as long as I continue to seek God's will and not my own things work. If my children truly NEED something I can't give them, God very often sends the resources and opportunities our way. At the same time some truly good things that weren't necessarily a "need" HAVE had to be forgone because of a limit on resources. That is part of the sacrifice of being open to life and of homeschooling. Still, those times have been rare and I am ever grateful for God's abundant blessings.
Oh my it's 2:30 already??
God bless!
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: June 16 2005 at 2:21pm | IP Logged
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Honestly, in a perfect world, I don't think we should be "teaching" at all...but I used the word, I see. I'm writing off the top of my head in short snatches between major household projects. I guess I need to consider each word more carefully.
So, that's it for me until I have time to do that
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Leonie
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| Posted: June 16 2005 at 6:11pm | IP Logged
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Michele,
Don't you think that self education can be a goal for the older years?
I am not saying that mothers or fathers or tutors or group learning cannot be applied to these years - of course they can and, of course, we as parents teach all the time.
But I have always taken to heart CM's goal of self education and used that idea more in teen years - yes, esp when the dc surpass me in an area. ( all areas?  )
Leonie in Sydney
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: June 18 2005 at 7:25am | IP Logged
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Leonie, I think you're right. Self education should be the goal, because sooner or later our children will have to -- and should -- learn things on their own. There will be an entire lifetime of learning ahead of them when they leave our care! And in a sense we do "teach" our kids, even when the subject matter exceeds our knowledge, because we are "teaching" them how to look for answers, where to go for help, and how to form the right questions. We can model the search for knowledge (both our own search and our search for appropriate tutors/programs for them), and in the process we "teach" them "how" to search.
(I am in the middle of a response to this thread, but can't manage to find enough time to "think" and post! Today is son's bday and a swim meet. Maybe tomorrow evening or early am I can post. I'm enjoying everyone's conversation in the meantime!)
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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Willa
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| Posted: June 18 2005 at 8:09am | IP Logged
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Janette and Leonie, I agree. A child is self-educating from the youngest years, and we are unconsciously teaching self-education as you say, Janette -- that's a good point!!
Plus, self-education seems to be a matter of self-motivating and choosing to learn from the right resources and books. As Chesterton said, by definition education comes from outside ourselves -- if we simply read a book, the book and the author is our teacher. We don't make knowledge from a vacuum -- it's an interaction between ourselves and something outside ourselves. Now we CAN reason from something known to something known, I guess, but that's different.
I used to worry because I heard that homeschooling high school was very hard and that outside resources were needed. Well, it is true in a way -- my kid couldn't have learned trigonometry without a book, because I certainly couldn't teach him from my head But with the book he was fine!
Some kids, perhaps boys particularly, may benefit from an outside teacher or class but that's a whole different subject. That could still be self-educating depending on why the class is being taken.
My dh works at home too, Michele. He has never taught a class and for the most part I don't either during the high school years. But his presence and modelling of work, I believe, keep our boys striving -- they know I am a direct representative of their dad and their dad's presence is a constant part of their lives.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
Take Up and Read
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MicheleQ
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| Posted: July 02 2005 at 9:13am | IP Logged
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Dear Leonie,
Please excuse my slow reply. I left for Michigan right after I last posted and have had a busy week since being home.
Leonie wrote:
Michele,
Don't you think that self education can be a goal for the older years?
I am not saying that mothers or fathers or tutors or group learning cannot be applied to these years - of course they can and, of course, we as parents teach all the time.
But I have always taken to heart CM's goal of self education and used that idea more in teen years - yes, esp when the dc surpass me in an area. ( all areas? ) |
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Oh yes I definitely DO think self-learning can and should be the goal. But what IS self-learning? It's learning about a topic on our own yes, but how? Is a teacher no longer needed? No, a teacher is always needed in some form. We adults self-educate all the time. We research, we read and we learn. We seek out knowledge and attain it. But we're never without a teacher in some form, be it books, the internet or whatever. It is from mind to mind that we gain knowledge. So the goal is to have them go from learning from me to learning from men far wiser and more learned than I shall ever be.
I think CM sums it up well when she writes about knowledge; "It is for their own sakes that children should get knowledge. The power to take a generous view of men and their motives, to see where the greatness of a given character lies, to have one's judgment of present events illustrated and corrected by historic and literary parallels, to have, indeed, the power of comprehensive judgment these are admirable assets within the power of every one according to the measure of his mind; and these are not the only gains which knowledge affords. The person who can live upon his own intellectual resources and never know a dull hour (though anxious and sad hours will come) is indeed enviable in these days of intellectual inanition, when we depend upon spectacular entertainments pour passer le temps.
If knowledge means so much to us, 'What is knowledge?' the reader asks. We can give only a negative answer. Knowledge is not instruction, information, scholarship, a well-stored memory. It is passed, like the light of a torch, from mind to mind, and the flame can be kindled at original minds only. Thought, we know, breeds thought; it is as vital thought touches our minds that our ideas are vitalized, and out of our ideas comes our conduct of life. The case for reform hardly needs demonstration, but now we begin to see the way of reform. The direct and immediate impact of great minds upon his own mind is necessary to the education of a child. Most of us can get into touch with original minds chiefly through books; and if we want to know how far a school provides intellectual sustenance for its scholars, we may ask to see the list of books in reading during the current term. If the list be short, the scholar wilt not get enough mind-stuff; if the books are not various, his will not be an all-round development; if they are not original, but compiled at second hand, he will find no material in them for his intellectual growth. Again, if they are too easy and too direct, if they tell him straight away what he is to think, he will read, but he will not appropriate. Just as a man has to eat a good dinner in order that his physical energies may be stimulated to select and secrete that small portion which is vital to him, so must the intellectual energies be stimulated to extract what the individual needs by a generous supply, and also by a way of presentation that is not obvious."
God bless!
__________________
Michele Quigley
wife to my prince charming and mom of 10 in Lancaster County, PA USA
http://michelequigley.com
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AnaB
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| Posted: July 15 2005 at 9:49am | IP Logged
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This may be dragging this thread out, but I've really been blessed reading it. I identify so much with what Elizabeth said about spending too much time "researching" homeschooling rather than just doing it, becoming frustrated and impatient. Part of me is still a student and I think I should cultivate some Mother Culture and it is interesting to me to research CM and other educational philosophies and methods. I've learned alot. But when this robs time from my children and then I stress out trying to get everything done, something is not right. "But what is truly necessary, Martha?" I can become such a "Martha", to borrow from the Bible, in that I'm trying to do everything right and perfect more for my sake than doing what my children really need.
I think educational philosophies are important. I think educational methods too, are quite helpful, but in the end it boils down to what God requires of me. At some point I must take my eyes off CM (who wasn't even a mom, I believe) or any other guru and get down on my knees and find out from God what my children need. God knows their purpose in life and it's my job to prepare them for it. They may need to learn Chinese rather than Latin to be a missionary. They may not need Trigonometry or to read the Greek myths.
We can become so frustrated trying to bear a yoke God never fashioned for us. Looking at the fruit in our lives is what will tell us if we're not being balanced, like Elizabeth said.
I'm reading Real Learning right now, and I really appreciate the story about Elizabeth's oldest son holding the baby with asthma. Learning to be a servant is so important. It's not on the educational agenda, but it's more important than anything else on there.
There must be a balance. I fluctuate so much and struggle with self discipline. It's so hard to juggle homeschooling and keeping up with the home! I don't think there's a magic formula for producing "perfect" adults out of our children. Well, I take that back. The only formula we should put our trust in is going to God on our knees each day for each child. What God can do in my weakness is better than what I can do in my perfection. He's the One that works in their hearts and helps them process what they're learning in a useful way.
I think it's easy to feel inadequate as a homeschooler if we think we have to teach and cover every area every day. Again, we're wearing someone else's yoke. For me, struggling with some health issues, that's just not possible, though I still feel called to homeschool. My school will look different than your school.
Whenever I spend too much time learning about what others are doing (comparing) and trying to duplicate it, I get in trouble. It's something to learn from each other, but without balance, it can rob us of contentment and peace because there will always be somebody else doing things differently.
Well, I don't know if anything I said was useful. This is the journey I'm on. I am trying to get better at organization, self-discipline, contentment,and balance. It keeps me on my knees which is where God wants me to be, I guess. It's hard because I desire so much to be the best parent and to give my children the best education possible. But sometimes I just can't keep up. My children are all on grade level, and relatively well behaved. More than anything I want to enjoy my children and have them enjoy learning. I want them to love the Lord and be mighty men and women of God in His kindgom. To this end I labor!
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His By Grace, AnaB blessed WIFE to Jeff and mama to 4 blessings!
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TracyQ
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Ana,
Your words were beautiful, and blessed me very much, thank you!
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Blessings and Peace,
Tracy Q.
wife of Marty for 20 years, mom of 3 wonderful children (1 homeschool graduate, 1 12th grader, and a 9th grader),
homeschooling in 15th year in Buffalo, NY
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Is it best to follow CM's advice fully?
