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St. Ann
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| Posted: March 10 2008 at 3:24pm | IP Logged
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I'm not really sure how to phrase this...lately I have been feeling pressure from other older moms to consider returning to the work force in one way or another.
Not immediately, but when the youngest is in school...so in 2.5 years. But I should begin planning for that time.
To clarify, I live in Germany where it is illegal to homeschool. My girls are in school from 8 – 11.30am (1st-2nd grades) later as they get older. My dd1 is in school until 2.30pm 3 days a week. We try to integrate our "homeschooling" in our family life together afternoons, holidays and weekends.
Even though my girls are not at home 4 hours a day, I am still very busy. I am not lounging around reading novels all morning (wouldn't it be lovely?). I am also not a multi-tasker. My energy is concentrated on my main priority in life, so if I did accept another 'task', either my work(job) would suffer or my family. I really believe I don't have enough to give to both. I was also raised in the american tradition of volunteerism. I could imagine helping young mothers or visiting/shopping for the elderly....when the time comes. I want to remain free to be there for my family. It is a luxury, that I hope we are able to afford all our lives. We live in an area of Germany where it is economically possible to live on one income. BUT in Munich – NO WAY! Not on our income.
My dh would love to return to Munich to work in a wonderful catholic school in the administration and teaching. He could never earn enough that I could continue on without a paycheck, unless we took a small apartment near the Hauptbahnhof where the turks and albanians all live. Friends are really pressuring us to return to Munich. There are many great reasons to live in Munich, but imo there is a more important reason to remain where we are. I get stressed just thinking about it. Dh is not adamant about Munich. I feel the most pressure coming from other women. I really feel like an idiot sometimes when this situation occurs.
I am sharing all this because I need some persuasive arguments to present to my women friends(from Munich) who think I am nuts for wanting to stay home when the girls are all school age. Many believe that it is economically vital (not just personally, but for the entire community) for women to be in the work force in this day and age. I need intellectual support here!!!! Have any of you had to deal with this question? Some of you are earning money on the side either with your crafts or writing skills.
Heck, I could sell Tupperware! Mary Kay cosmetics!(I hardly ever wear make-up! )
Someone suggested I take in a couple of day care children.
I am rambling now.
I am counting on you good women.
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Stephanie
Wife and mother to Hannah '96, Maria '99, Dorothea '01, Helena '03
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Barbara C.
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| Posted: March 10 2008 at 4:21pm | IP Logged
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I think your "friends" need to back off. I would just tell them that it's something that will be decided between you and your husband when the time comes. And if you feel that your family would suffer from the stresses of working a job outside the home, you shouldn't have to continuously defend it.
I would have been over-joyed if my mom had been home when school let out. With her work schedule and commute, she usually left for work before I woke up in the morning (6 am) and I had to wait at school or the babysitters for at least and hour and a half everyday until I was old enough to latch-key or drive.
If I were sending my kids to school, I would consider maybe getting a part-time position during school hours. Then again, though, taking care of the house and then the kids, even if they spend a lot of time at school, are full-time jobs in and of themselves. I always saw leaving the workforce as downgrading from three jobs to just two.
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Barbara
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stefoodie
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| Posted: March 10 2008 at 4:36pm | IP Logged
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This decision really should be between you and dh. If your friends keep pressuring you, you could say that you and dh have talked and that it is HIS decision that you stay at home and that you're happy to go with that. I'd put the "burden" on him -- if anyone persists you could always say maybe they should talk to your husband about it.
Sometimes I wonder why people think it's their business to even express an opinion about this. 
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stef
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: March 10 2008 at 5:27pm | IP Logged
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Have you seen this site?
Ladies Against Feminism
A lot of your friends arguments sound like they came straight from The Feminine Mystique and other feminist propaganda (as well as communist arguments by Marx). SAHMs are literally referred to as leaches on society and other horrible names in these works. The site above is pretty protestant in nature, and some of the articles are just fun fluff, but in the archives, there are some very good arguments against many of your friends' positions.
You might search for essays and things by Alice von Hildebrand. She is a rather famous intellectual (her husband was a well-known Catholic philosopher) who has a lot of wonderful writings on feminism.
I agree with the above that its not their business, but I would still like to better have the words to combat such attacks, even if I only ever formulate the argument in my own head. 
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Nina
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| Posted: March 10 2008 at 6:22pm | IP Logged
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I love that site!I found it a few weeks ago and put it on my favorites list.Stephanie,this is my personal experience,I was born in Europe and my mother did also work full time.When my family moved to the U.S. she still worked outside the home because that is the European mentality.My father is somewhat materialistic and so it was justified for us to be left alone in the house when I was 6yrs old.(yes,6yrs old)My sister and I don't really have much of a relationship with our parents today because they really didn't have a relationship with us when we were growing up.Sorry to go on so much,but I hope that you won't listen to your friends.As far the community economics,just the opposite is true.The less women in full-time jobs,the better.Then the men(fathers)would earn a far better wage.The women in the workforce are bringing the wages down.This is a economic,historical,and social fact.Hope I didn't ramble on too much.  also, sorry for any spelling errors-had to type fast.
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Carole N.
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| Posted: March 11 2008 at 3:40am | IP Logged
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Stephanie, I can honestly say that I also feel the pressure more over here than I did in the states. I am not sure why, but I have found that very few women here stay at home with their children ... even the mothers of small infants seem to return to work when they are six months old!
Being a homeschooling mom in the states was enough to set me apart, but here it is even more evident that I am out of the norm. Having been here for three months and having older children, I am beginning to wonder if I am doing the right thing for them. With college looming in the near future, I wonder.
I guess I just need a simple statement for a response. I am so tired of being looked at like I come from another planet. And I find that so many people here do not have any religious background at all either protestant or Catholic. I suspose that I am still adjusting, but this is not quite what I expected.
Sorry to ramble ... I will watch this thread with great interest.
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 Carole ... in Wales
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St. Ann
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| Posted: March 11 2008 at 3:59am | IP Logged
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These friends of mine are roman catholic and very faithful, but also very enlightened, so that the language used on LAF would not hit any positive buttons, iykwim!
I don't want to take this thread on a tangent, but Carole hit on some other points that have also been on my mind lately.
If we believe that God calls each one of us by name and that each of us has a personal calling to...ordained life, marraige, celibacy, mission work in the 3rd world or in the 1st within the economic sphere or or or...
and I really believe and try to live this although it is totally against the societal norms, HOW FAR DO WE GO?
That we make others angry? That others feel we think we are better? We don't want to isolate ourselves from the surrounding community. Sometimes I really need to do some diplomatic outreaching, just so others don't think we are totally nuts.
This does have something to do with my original post just not so specific. It has been heavy on my heart lately.
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Stephanie
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: March 11 2008 at 7:45am | IP Logged
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St. Ann wrote:
| These friends of mine are roman catholic and very faithful, but also very enlightened, so that the language used on LAF would not hit any positive buttons, iykwim! |
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I suppose I didn't mean for you to direct your friends to the site, but it might have resources to better equip you.
And, I'm not sure how "enlightened" your friends really are to hold the positions they do. Sounds like they need to be as enlightened as you are!
It is interesting, too, that a lot of the "American" mentality of the importance of the mother in the home came from its German immigrants! At one time there were more German immigrants than any other nationality by far, and they had a huge influence culturally and politically until the war. Alan Carlson devotes and entire chapter to this in his book "The American Way." Anyway, I find it interesting that America has, in a way, clung to its "German" heritage moreso than Germany has (though, of course, it saddens me to see the decline of the family in our own country, too).
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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guitarnan
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| Posted: March 11 2008 at 7:50am | IP Logged
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Carole and Stephanie, I've lived overseas and homeschooled (Italy - try explaining homeschooling to such a groupthink culture!), so I do understand a little of what you're experiencing.
I found in Italy that the neighbors accepted the idea more if I explained the (Catholic) religious motivation - they knew the American military school didn't teach religion classes, while Americans understood things better if we put it in terms of educational quality. Sometimes, it's finding a way to connect with those around you - they don't have to accept your plan as one that would work for them, but they can see why you, yourself, would do it.
I live in the hypermaterialistic DC metro area, where McMansions are the new reality - of course on one income we can't afford one - we drive old cars and fix them ourselves - my dh, bless him, tells everyone who asks about homeschooling that it does involve sacrifice. He implies the sacrifice is only material, but it's not.
Homeschooling can be very lonely for the parent who is the primary educator. You give up social opportunities, job prospects and personal time (what is that, anyway?). For me, turning to the Good Lord and His Blessed Mother have really helped me cope with this and stay strong in my desire to give my children the absolute best. I can see in my 16-year-old a strong moral code, a deep faith and a loving heart, and he helps me see every day why I do what I do.
I've stopped trying to explain every choice I make to those around me - instead, I've developed stock answers to the big questions (socialization, high school science labs, diplomas, etc.) and I just recite them if necessary. I don't explain the whys and wherefores with more than a sentence or two about our initial decision, a smile and the statement, "It's still working, so we're still doing it."
About working - I've worked full time, part time, from home, away from home, and owned my own business. I know how all these scenarios work, and I know which one is best for my kids, especially with the instability that comes with military life. This is what we've chosen for our family, because it works. That's about all I say about that.
I'm pretty bull-headed, I know, so I'm not the best person to suggest diplomatic statements of persuasion. I've found, for me, the thing that works is to figure out what "reason" the people around me will connect with best, recite it as needed, and continually ask for strength and love in my daily prayers. Homeschooling isn't for wimps...God really has given me the strength to do this. In the Lord's Prayer, we ask God to give us everything we need for each day..."daily bread"...and I ask with heartfelt sincerity.
You're not alone - I think there's a lot of pressure on SAHM's today, especially in societies where the government has made it very, very easy to go back to work and very, very hard to stay home. Your choices aren't wrong just because they are different. You really don't have an obligation to explain them in detail to others, either.
Side note - I did begin a small freelance writing effort a couple of years ago, when I was the base commanding officer's wife (I am still his wife, but he's moved to another job!) and feeling really isolated. It did help me - and still does - feel that I had something of my own that I could do - but it also adds to family stress when I have deadlines or need to spend time writing instead of watching films with my family. My choices won't work for everyone, and it's definitely something to pray over.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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CKwasniewski
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| Posted: March 11 2008 at 10:53am | IP Logged
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I saw a lot of this when we lived in Austria. I thought it was pretty sad... what they're getting is a generation of orphans, being raised by the State pretty much. No wonder they have no religious convictions!
I'll add this, though I don't have references:
1. Communists were the first ones requiring women to work outside the home... now in Europe it is de rigeur but nobody considers what it really means for their kids.
Side note: The old aristocratic (Catholic) families don't have this mentality and they regard it as sad and "bourgeois."
2. Do some research and see if there is any "evidence" that kids need their mom at home, even if they are older. Something like the book "Hold on to your kids" that was discussed a few weeks ago. Say something like: "I don't want to be peripheral to my child's life. I want to continue to support them and be their friend. For that I need large chunks of time with them."
3. You could also say that you plan to supplement their education, i.e., arts, religion, help with homework. For that, you need to be home.
Stick to your principles!
hth
ck
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Carole N.
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| Posted: March 11 2008 at 11:55am | IP Logged
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Thanks ladies! I am now more convicted in what I know to be true. I have had three careers in my lifetime and the last one was being a mommy. And you know what, I love it! I may not be the best mom in the world, but I am the only mom that my children have. Being a mom is tough, but well worth the rewards!
I don't ever want to do anything more than stay home with my children. And I did start reading "Hold on to your Kids" just today, and it just is more "proof" of how important a mom at home can be!
And Nancy, I would not say that you are bull-headed, just convicted in what you believe! And as far as I am concerned, there is nothing the matter with that!
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Carole ... in Wales
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St. Ann
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| Posted: March 11 2008 at 2:09pm | IP Logged
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guitarnan wrote:
You're not alone - I think there's a lot of pressure on SAHM's today, especially in societies where the government has made it very, very easy to go back to work and very, very hard to stay home. Your choices aren't wrong just because they are different. You really don't have an obligation to explain them in detail to others, either.
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Yes, in Germany families like ours are being disadvantaged and our family minister is a mother of seven! She is proposing all kinds of amendments that benefit all kinds of family constellations EXCEPT for the traditional form = married male and female where the mother stays at home to care for the family.
We are a very rare breed, and becoming rarer.
I will have to look back to your responses every now and then to find the encouragement I need.
Thank you all.
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Stephanie
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Waverley
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You've gotten some great answers Carole.
I just wanted to add that I usually answer with "This is what works best for our family." As they continue to give reasons why you should do something else, you can simply continue to respond "This is what works best for our family" or "that seems to be what works for your family." You do not owe them an explanation (unless of course you really want to discuss it with them). Everytime I have tried giving statistics about how children are better off with a SAHM, etc. the other mothers get defensive really quickly.
Good luck to you.
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guitarnan
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| Posted: March 11 2008 at 2:19pm | IP Logged
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I actually have had mothers get defensive without statistics...as soon as I say I homeschool, they say, "Oh, you must be a saint," or "I couldn't ever do that, but what about socialization?" as though I tried to imply they were less effective parents than I.
?????
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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Mari
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Quote St Ann
unless we took a small apartment near the Hauptbahnhof where the turks and albanians all live.
Dear St Ann
You really sound as if you already know that your heart is set on staying at home and fighting your way around the law that says hs is illegal. Well done for having done it up until now.  Also that it looks as if your dh feels that you should move to Munich.
If you both follow those paths, you will have a change in environment. A small apartment amongst different cultures. I humbly suggest that this may be why you have this crisis. Of course it is not an easy choice to leave a bigger place and neighbourhood full of people like ourselves.
If you/your dh feel that you must continue in your paths, maybe it is to lead you to that big unknown and seemingly less physically comfortable apartment and neighbourhood - but there would be no reason for you to work, and with no reason to work, no pressure from hearing friends telling you to do so.
I would say, follow your heart - and your actions and love of your dc will be the strongest message you could send across to your friends.
Blessings.
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Mari, mother of 2 loving daughters aged 8 and 10
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Topic: SAHM's defense!
