| Author | |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 15 2005 at 2:32pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Last year, my son who was 12, decided at the last minute to drive with my father to Hilton Head Island and back. I knew he'd be bored in the car without books on tape, so I went to the nearest bookstore and purchased a couple of volumes of HP on tape because they were literally the only children's audio books for sale. This controversy over whether HP is good, bad, or in between has swirled from the beginning. And there are divided opinions in my house and among my children's godparents. This particular child was barely reading last summer and those books on tape propelled him into real reading. Sure wish it had been Redwall, instead  .
Anyway, the whole thing has nagged at me. It's an intuitive thing more than anything else. I feel like it's a slippery slope into the metaphysical and relativism and plain old bad company. I can only imagine the folks camping out for the latest release. Are those strangers at the party dressed like witches? How do you know if they think are really are witches or not? Where does fantasy begin and end and reality creep in? Can we be certain how a sensitive, imaginative child is affected? Didn't I really take on so much of Laura Ingalls' persona as a child that it became a part of me? Do I want that where Harry POtter and my children are concerned? A really good book, a compelling book can be ingrained in our souls. These books scare me when I consider that.
I found these two articles very interesting and I plan to share them with my HP fan so that we can discuss whether it's really a good idea to jump on the latest bandwagon.
Magical Sales
Pope Benedict and Harry Potter
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
jdostalik
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 15 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2935
|
| Posted: July 15 2005 at 2:42pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Hi Elizabeth,
Michael O'Brien, my favorite Catholic author  , will be on CNN tonight at 8 pm EST talking about Potter mania.
Just thought you might be interested, I plan on taping it to view later.
__________________
God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
theNetSmith
Forum Admin
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 838
|
| Posted: July 15 2005 at 3:13pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
More reading on Pope Benedict and Harry Potter:
Pope Benedict Opposes Harry Potter Novels
Pope Opposes Harry Potter Novels - Signed Letters from Cardinal Ratzinger Now Online
-Tim
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Marybeth
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 02 2005
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1277
|
| Posted: July 15 2005 at 3:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth,
Thank you (as always) for the wonderful food for thought. I do enjoy HP very much. It is different for me being an adult and knowing my faith. It can be scary to comprehend were books can lead our children. I plan to really discuss HP with my nephews while we read the next installment.
Does your son know enjoy the Redwall series? Just curious b/c my nephew is demanding I read them too! 
I'm in huge trouble b/c I have not yet read LOTR. He may revoke my "world's greatest aunt" status because of it.
Take care.
Marybeth
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 15 2005 at 4:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
My eldest son has a full set of Redwall that he's saving for his children. Tehy are precious treasures. The next two aren't the slightest bit interested in Brian Jacques. Just not enough willful suspension of disbelief for talking rodents-- but they'll buy into hobbits and orcs .
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
momwise
Forum All-Star
Joined: March 28 2005
Location: Colorado
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1914
|
| Posted: July 15 2005 at 6:04pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
[QUOTE=Elizabeth] Magical Sales
This bothers me much more than the kids reading the books. I think the acting out comes from a huge population who has a heart full of desire for devotion and Catholic culture and do not know how to fulfill it. There are a number of other signs in society that point to the same thing: Halloween replacing All Hallows eve, secular Christmas celebrations, etc.
Check out the archives for yesterday's Literature Alive posts for Regina Doman's article and Jimmy Akin's blog on the Pope headlines.
I wonder why this book is fueling so much interest in the occult when the Lord of the Rings movies did not? Or maybe they did and I didn't hear about it. In that case, I think it would be lack of formation, not the books itself.
__________________
Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
"If you want equal justice for all and true freedom and lasting peace, then America, defend life." JPII
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
guitarnan
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Maryland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10883
|
| Posted: July 15 2005 at 8:28pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
The huge surge in interest in the occult really bothers me. I noticed it about two years ago in a military base bookstore overseas, where, suddenly, in the Religion section, two whole shelves were devoted to tarot cards, witchcraft, etc. I was especially offended to have to look at all of this while searching for some spiritually wholesome reading. This has also spilled over into some of the public libraries I've visited.
I'm not so sure about a direct connection between HP and the occult; books like these have always been around (I read some as a child in my public library...but they were with the ESP books, not the religious books!). I can't really figure it out...but then, I don't watch network TV (except for sports and news) and so I have no clue what's popular in secular culture today. Two years in Italy and a year in rural West Virginia have pretty much rendered me clueless about stuff like that. I like myself this way.
Great discussion...I look forward to more...
I do allow ds (13) to read the HP books, but he's such a realist he knows that it's all made up and that he is not supposed to live his life the way the HP characters do. My dd is too young, of course, but even if she were older I would not want her to read the books...she's more affected by scary things and would probably have nightmares.
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
tovlo4801
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 28 2005
Location: Minnesota
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 386
|
| Posted: July 15 2005 at 8:42pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm so glad you guys are talking about this! I'm going to have to read the things you've linked. We started reading HP with my son much earlier when Grandma bought the book during a previous book release hype. We didn't know any better, but thankfully my ds was not an extremely fluent reader so we began by reading them aloud. Even after my son became a fluent reader we always insisted that they be read together as a family first. It does give us the opportunity to run interference with anything concerning.
We went ahead and ordered the new book this week when we realized the release was coming up. We assumed that we'd just handle this new book the same way we've handled the past ones. I mentioned the new book to my son after we'd ordered it and he casually said that he just wasn't that interested. "It's really old now Mom."  I wish we hadn't ordered the book.
I told my dh about ds's disinterest and he said, "What! I want to know what happens!" I assured him that even if we decide to let my son's disinterest be the end of HP books for us, he and I can read the book together after the kids go to bed so he can find out how it ends. 
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Marybeth
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 02 2005
Location: Illinois
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1277
|
| Posted: July 15 2005 at 9:20pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Well, if you look to the popularity of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel and Charmed it does stand to reason that the darker side of life and fighting it looks cool. The clothes are trendy yet slutty, the main characters are good looking and fight or cast spells which save us all.
I think the rise of psychics is b/c people begin by doing it for fun and then can get easily pulled into believing. My Catholic friend told me she knew her IVF would be successful b/c a psychic predicted she would have 2 children!!! ugh!!
I know the internet allows children to search many spells, rituals, magic,etc. I went to a talk by a former Wiccan who said the devil can easily tempt by using the internet b/c the access is instant and purposely led to be charming and harmless. He should know he set up the AOL Wiccan chat rooms. Very scary stuff!
Again, I do enjoy HP. I am certainly looking forward to the new book but agree that children should an adult with whom they can discuss the book.
Wow...don't mean to be rambling on so much. Must have been my rum and Coke I had with dinner!
Marybeth
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
materdei7
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Location: Washington
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 149
|
| Posted: July 16 2005 at 12:04am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I tend to follow the lines of our current Holy Father
and his lead on the whole HP thing. HP has never been a big deal here at this house. We received a HP book years ago as a gift, and I thought it would be a good read aloud. I hadn't a clue what was inside  , but
Heh! Everyone else was reading it and couldn't stop
talking about how good of a read it was..?
My children did not engage with it  and actually insisted on the tossing of the book....I had to agree
with them..... 
Is the current book the one where Harry finds his hormones? 
I question the fact that alot of adults love the books,
and think that children are able to discern the heavy
topics of magic/witchcraft. I'd like my children to find another role model/hero to read about.
The devil  just needs a little crack to find his way in. I remember the part in A Mother's Rule, where Holly went to a
exorcist for healing......made me stop and pray.
What more of a wide road do we have in front of us and our children? It is our vocation to guide them towards the narrow road.........
I'm interested to see what you all concluded on this hot
topic.
__________________
Kathleen, mother of five on earth, three in heaven.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
teachingmom
Forum All-Star
Virginia Bluebells
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2120
|
| Posted: July 16 2005 at 12:28am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I did a lot of reading on the internet last night after hearing about the Lifesite article on Ratzinger (two years ago when still Cardinal) supposedly condemning Harry Potter. It seems that the content of his two short letters on the subject fall short of condemning the books. In fact, it is unclear whether Pope Benedict has ever read a word of Harry Potter. To quote a friend, he could be interpreted as giving the books a PG rating, encouraging parents to be aware of the dangers and guiding their children through the books.
Here are some blog articles that I found interesting. The first article is from author and Catholic homeschooling mom, Regina Doman, the second and third are from a man I have never heard of (but tended to agree with what he wrote). I heartily concur with Regina Doman when she writes: "I thought the books were much more sinister until I actually read them. Now that I have read all the published books, I find that most of what Catholic critics have written about them is exaggerated and in some cases, misleading." She has much more of value in her post and I encourage you all to read it.
__________________
~Irene (Mom to 6 girls, ages 7-19)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 16 2005 at 7:50am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I do agree that the headlines were distorted both times. Makes one wonder about all the other "truths" reported. However, when I looked past the headlines, read the actual letters and then read the some of the critique of written by the German woman, THEN read the articles like the Gazette article and then talked to someone who had personal experience with new age "religions," I had to pause to wonder why, in a world with so many good books to influence my children, I'd encourage them to read something that always raises such big doubts in my mind. The Gazette article really troubled me, because regardless of the author's intent, these books are having this effect on some of her readership. Would they have dabbled here anyway? Maybe. But they are quick to embrace HP and I'm not sure I want to be in company with them.
Even my HP fan concedes that the distinction between good and evil is a blurry one and the whole magic aspect "can wig me out sometimes." Am I going to stop at every questionable juncture to be certain everyone in my young listening audience understands where I stand on the nuances? That might be how I approach it with my 13 yo, but it wouldn't work as a read aloud for those younger than him.Amazon recommends the book for 9-12 year olds. I know that if I read this book aloud, my children younger than this will want to listen too. Rare is the time they are denied a read-aloud experience. Certainly, there are high school books that should be read which address dark topics, but they aren't marketed towards children. They are reserved for older teenagers and adults who are presumably able to distinguish finer nuances.My 13 yo is eager to read the book. In order to do that, he might be required to do a chapter-by-chapter critique, after reading all of Michael O'Brien's links and the Gazette article. But, if this is the one where "Harry's hormones kick in," all bets are off. The early press and several of JK Rowling's quotes seem to indicate that the book will hold a some teenaged romance. My intuition tells me this won't be along the lines of Beany Malone  . Supposedly, the book is set in 1996-97. And Harry is sixteen. I wasn't impressed with the romantic standards for typical teenagers in the nineties. Of course, wizards aren't really typical and I have no idea if wizards would hold to standards more like the homeschooled teens I knew then  . Right now, sight unseen, I'm uncomfortable with the notion of JK Rowling feeding my 13yo romantic ideas. (And my 16 yo has no interest in Harry's love life.) Believe me, we have a hard enough time fighting incidentals in the culture--we're not going to deliberately enter the world of popular adolescent romantic angst. I'll be interested to hear how romance is handled in this volume from women on this board who plan to read it, who will look at it through eyes much different from those of most popular book reviewers.
So, someone please binge-read this weekend and get back to us!
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kim F
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 03 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 326
|
| Posted: July 16 2005 at 8:13am | IP Logged
|
|
|
<< the devil can easily tempt by using the internet b/c the access is instant and purposely led to be charming and harmless>>
In my opinion this is exactly the part of all the HP hype that is most troublesome. It is definitely the way the devil tends to work- through the back door. I am coming from this from a totally different perspective, having grown up with a heavy family background in metaphysics. HP is *kidstuff* as far as the paranormal goes. But the tact it takes is troublesome. Like oh just laugh about it, its harmless. This is exactly the tact the homosexual media thinktank took to desensitize the general public. It too was successful.
I remember a columnist for conservative journal some years back saying be careful what you are entertained by today because it will be your reality 20yrs from now. I mulled that one over and over as time has gone on and she was right. We were all shocked by the initial gay storylines on tv. At least for the first year or so. Who even blinks at a homosexual kiss anymore? Who finds ghetto humor shocking anymore? Who is horrified by minimalist fashions?
The better question is how do our kids and their friends react to the same? They may objectively know its wrong but they have lost the shock value. The more *harmless* images they store the more I have to wonder how difficult it is for them to believe the real thing is as bad as we insist it is.
Knowing that behind the jokes there is a whole world out there happy to have the rest of us blithely apathetic about its activity makes me unable to consider throwing money at Rowling. Enough really ugly things are happening that I can't be entertained by it. If I want to really dig into good and evil and the occult I am VERY hesitant to do so with an author who is not thoroughly grounded in orthodox Christianity.
The pope quotes may not have been exactly what the papers all said but you can read the letters. Better yet you can read what the exorcist said. I am guessing he knows whereof he speaks. : / Whatever else they say they were definitely not an endorsement. Why can we so easily blow that off?
There is a real dark world out there pulling in lots of people. I doubt mine will bite. A couple of mine read the first bk in fact. I just can't get on board if ANY people are being sucked in. It doesnt have to be mine for it to be a sad sad situation.
Kim
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Jamberry77
Forum Pro
Joined: Feb 15 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 243
|
| Posted: July 16 2005 at 12:06pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Elizabeth stated something that I've heard before (and I will use it when the grandparents who are big HP fans encourage our son to read them): why offer books to our children that we feel are questionable when there are so many *good* books to read? The motto between my son and myself is this: so many books, so little time. Why waste good reading time?
I agree with Kim F also in that the more things are presented to us, the more we accept them. Seems like I heard somewhere the Nazis relied on that technique. After hearing "Jews are bad" a thousand times, most of the people accepted that as fact.
God has given us a gift, though: our son (7) is scared of a lot of things in movies or books and won't read them. He won't watch most CCC videos b/c of scary soldiers, and has put away the few Hardy Boy books b/c of scary situations, and didn't like The Princess and the Goblins by George MacDonald b/c of the scary scenes. So I'm hoping he'll avoid the magic junk, too.
(He does love the Andrew Lang fairy tales, and these mark a clear line between good and evil and I like these, too.)
Kelly Lang in NC
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Genevieve
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 02 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 529
|
| Posted: July 17 2005 at 10:39am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I was wondering if someone could explain to me the difference between the Harry Potter books and other fantasy books. The ones that come to mind is the LOTR and the Narnia books. Why is the latter okay for kids but not the former? A little confused......
__________________
Genevieve
The Good Within
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
cathhomeschool
Board Moderator
Texas Bluebonnets
Joined: Jan 26 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7303
|
| Posted: July 18 2005 at 2:55pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Genevieve,
Michael O'Brien does a great job of explaining this in A Landscape with Dragons. The difference lies in how magic/dragons/good and evil are portrayed. This link gives a great answer to your question, though.
This interview gives some great answers too.
I want to echo what was said earlier. Why read Harry Potter when there is so much out there that is more worthwhile? Many readily apply this philosophy to television and computer, limiting screen time and carefully choosing what is watched. What about books? And as adults do we find it okay to hold ourselves to lower standards than what we hope for our children? Maybe the Harry Potter books are not bad, just not age appropriate for children...?
__________________
Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: July 18 2005 at 3:02pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'd like to introduce another male voice to the forum. My sons occasionally slip and call him "Mr. Wiley," because he is the dear husband of Melissa Wiley,usually known to those of us who love her by her real name, Lissa Peterson. That makes Mr. Wiley's real name Scott Peterson--which tends to raise a questioning eyebrow. But this is the good Scott Peterson and he writes from the Virginia mountians and not from jail . He has a thought or two about HP, written for the secular crowd:
Scott's Blog
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
guitarnan
Forum Moderator
Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: Maryland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 10883
|
| Posted: July 18 2005 at 7:41pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Scott has some great things to say...and he hits on one of my Big Pet Peeves (even bigger than that "broth solution" meat packers inject into my chicken!)...children today are being taught by the media to think adults are stupid (cf. "Home Alone," "Kids Next Door," "Fairly Oddparents," and many other films and cartoons). There is a great book out that addresses this topic, among others, The War Against Parents, by Cornel West and Sylvia Ann Hewlett, for those who want to pursue it further. Suffice to say, it is very hard for parents like us to combat all the images of Totally Stupid Adults that children view/hear/read each day. We really have to work hard to convince children of this decade that adults 1) still have brains and 2) are still in charge.
Thanks for the link! (Naturally, I went on to read pages and pages of Scott's blog...)
__________________
Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Another look at Harry Potter
