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SallyT
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 9:48am | IP Logged
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As a compulsive CM-ish DIY-er, I found this interesting.
I don't see anything really to argue with, and I'm not posting it as something to react against. I'm just interested in perspectives on the role of prepared curriculum -- mostly CM's PNEU model, but really any prepared curriculum -- in the life of the individual homeschooling family.
I guess my main question would be how, and where, we see the locus of authority about what our children's education includes. What kind of balance do we strike between our role as our children's first educators, per the Catechism, and the idea that someone else who knows better than we do prescribes the books and the methodology?
Of course, I always need more humility in every area of my life, and recognizing that Miss Mason really might know more than I do about how children learn best may be one of those places where I need to give way more than I do.
On the other hand, what does this have to say to us as *Catholic* home educators, who just *are* going to sub in Catholic resources that a PNEU school (and/or Ambleside Online) would not include?
I'm really not throwing out challenges here, just ruminating as questions come to mind. Any takers for discussion?
Sally
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mamaslearning
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 10:54am | IP Logged
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Oh, I want to discuss, but am lost in other battles of the mind right now. I'll just park myself here to read the wisdom of others and hope to jump in at some point. 
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Lara
DD 11, DS 8, DS 6, DS 4
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mylonite
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 11:34am | IP Logged
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I saw the same article and was very intrigued by it. Unfortunately, I'm still pondering it, so I'll also wait for other voices to chime in.
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KellyB
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 12:13pm | IP Logged
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One of the best pieces of advice I have ever heard about home educating is to simply do what works best for your family! If that means using books someone else has chosen and you are happy with the book selection, then by all means do it. Or, if you are excited to make up your own plans and take a bit here and a bit there, then by all means do that. After all, I can't believe anyway that anyone really comes up with a plan that is totally void of another's ideas, right? We are all inspired and influenced by each other.
I love the CM philosophy. I think she had some absolutely brilliant things to say about education that I will forever be thankful for. But I may not take her advice on everything if I think I need to alter or change something. To me, she is a guide; my authority would be God, my family, and the state I live in that makes the rules I have to abide by in order to homeschool.
As an aside, I am so thankful for the Internet. I'm not sure I would have had the confidence to homeschool without it. The information available is such a gift. But, that same gift can also be a burden, at least to me. I am learning to take what is useful and discard the rest. In the past I have been a compulsive researcher. Even if something was working well, I was still gathering ideas on how to do it differently or better.
I guess as I get older, I realize that there are many experts in the world who would love to convince me that their way is the best for me. As for home educating, gosh, aren't there a lot of ways to be successful? That's what I think. I love CM and she will continue to be my guide. But I'm me, and that's okay.
I hope this is what you were looking for!
Best,
Kelly
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 12:41pm | IP Logged
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I found it interesting, too, if a little harsh. Though I do put things together on my own, usually I have chosen them from sources I believe to have the standards I may lack or have had the time to explore many options and choose from among them. So I never feel I am relying solely on ky own ability to know what is best. Ambleside is great, but I don't see why it need be held up as some purist option.
Given that, I think the part where it made me question things was regarding the use of my time, though, even then I don't think I spend a ton of time compiling my booklists. It is managing the other things like math, Latin, poetry memorization (if we were actually doing it!), art, handwriting and cooywork. Even Ambleside doesn't have all that spelled out for you. There is still a lot of organization that has to go on in managing a CM homeschool whether you are using someone else's curricilum or not. It just isn't as straightforward as workbooks and textbooks with numbered assignments.
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Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
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[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 12:57pm | IP Logged
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I just read through the comments and the author dis write this
Quote:
| Just to clarify: I was never saying that you ought *not* to design your own curriculum, but only that you do not *have* to to be "real" CM homeschooler or teacher, and that curriculum design wasn't expected of the PNEU teachers. This doesn't mean that some of us aren't gifted in that direction, of course. |
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I think this is an important clarification, because I felt when reading that she did border on making those who would choose to build their own curriculum look to be fools. I am not heavily into CM circles, so I don't know exactly who she was targeting with her comments, but I have never been made to feel I ought or ought not be designing my own thing, I am just an insufferable tweaker by nature. 
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 7:09pm | IP Logged
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I read Brandy's article, too, and I really enjoyed it. Which is kind of funny considering I don't use AO exactly as written. I do make use of AO though...
For context, we are a structured CM family - seeking to follow method and philosophy as detailed in CM's volumes, PNEU examples, and Parents Review articles. I use many of Ambleside's recommendations - some years are closer to AO than others. I usually substitute our history selections since we're off rotation from AO, and substitute books needed to represent our Catholic faith more fully in our curriculum. I find AO's pace and selections rigorous and classic which is why I have always gravitated toward them.
SallyT wrote:
| I don't see anything really to argue with, and I'm not posting it as something to react against. |
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I definitely see that in your post - that you're really looking to explore these ideas. Still...I hope you'll give me a little leeway in giving my take on the article, because I do think it has context here.
I think that Brandy's perspective is coming from a CM-structured mom --> speaking to other moms that may use CM in a structured way or are looking to use CM in a structured way. I don't think she was thinking of the CM-inspired mom that prefers to DIY her curriculum and chooses methodology and books as she prefers. (But...I'm only guessing there - I don't know Brandy. That's just my own take.) I also DO NOT think she was proposing a right-ness or wrong-ness in DIY'ing a CM curriculum.
I DO think she was advocating for the AO curriculum as written. It is a GOOD CM-structured curriculum.
I DO think she was attempting to debunk an idea/attitude that can be found in CM circles - that of more **OR** less CM'ness depending on whether you put your own curriculum together...or not - this is a FALSE idea: that a true CM mom will write and schedule her entire CM curriculum from scratch, and those that do not write from the ground up are cheating.
I do think that Charlotte Mason's quote from the article bears an expansion which provides a little more context: (emphasis mine)
CM, Vol 6, p. 272, Toward a Phil of Ed wrote:
| Perhaps we should apologize for ourselves as purveyors not precisely of books but of lists of books. Every headmaster or mistress is able to draw up such lists, but think of the labour of keeping some 170 books in circulation with a number of changes every term! Here is our excuse for offering our services to much-occupied teachers. ... |
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I believe, that in this section, CM is offering her reasoning for providing, what is essentially, a great deal of work...so that the teachers can teach. And THAT is exactly what I think Brandy is trying to get across in her article. That we *can* provide these lists...and also...that having AO provide them for us, along with the input, experience, background, and ongoing conversations (via their forum) frees CM teacher-moms to live the education.
SallyT wrote:
| I'm just interested in perspectives on the role of prepared curriculum -- mostly CM's PNEU model, but really any prepared curriculum -- in the life of the individual homeschooling family. |
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I think there is a valuable role that AO can play in the life of a home educating family. I'll do my best to illustrate some of these benefits because I think they are valid, and also, I think these are some of the benefits that are in context with the ideas that Brandy brought out in her article.
A CM-structured mom wants:
** The best of the best in literature for her student to read. Often she is seeking meaty literature that may even be a little bit of a stretch for her students. A mom may be new to this idea, and though she embraces the idea, may be lost in determining what book to choose for which student in a particular Form. She wants to be thoughtful, but may lack enough experience or knowledge to make a fully informed decision. For this mom, the recommendations at AO are so valuable! Also - literary choices cannot be stressed enough. Some books, while considerate and wonderful, are not living. And thus, cannot be narrated. Choose the wrong book and ask for narrations and it will end in frustration for child and parent. WHICH...may...just may...precipitate a chain reaction --> mom thinks that CM is too much, too hard -- her child can't narrate -- the whole CM idea is too abstract to implement practically -- and so on. I have seen this play out - and it's sad to me. Because the blame is put on CM as unacceptable, but the conclusion was arrived at in a faulty way. Because...really...it was just the book choice. On the other hand - some books are VERY meaty, and they are HARD but NOT impossible to narrate. In these cases, it's good to know that narration is possible, and know how to identify pitfalls, how a lesson may be prepared to make narrations more possible, etc. THIS is an area that AO-as-written excels in.
** She seeks to follow CM's guidelines in terms of how many books a student in a particular Form would read in a Term...and how many pages/day...and how many pages/term. That is sometimes an overwhelming task for a mom. Multiply that by a few children and this task can be even more daunting. Side note --> I happen to enjoy digging into that challenge and even compiled a spreadsheet to assist me (and others that might be interested) in pacing and scheduling pages for each student. My numbers are based on a PNEU schedule. If you're interested, you can download it: 2014-04-04_171354_Scheduling_Books_and_Pages_--_Vertical_ori ent.pdf ** She's looking to choose dictation and copywork from her child's daily reading so it has context - AO has provided those based on their book selections.
** She will need to plan out a term of artist, composer, geography, hymns, folksongs, memory work - all these are nicely mapped out with resources provided.
** A CM curriculum is literature heavy - one of the (many) strengths of AO is their vast quantity of resources and links to the books on their schedules, almost all of which are available as free ebooks. This makes this curriculum accessible across all budgets and family constraints.
** A benefit of using this curriculum as written is that OTHERS are using it, too, and AO has a forum that allows members to ask questions about particular challenges. Members discuss books they substitute, challenging books, and they offer ideas for particular CM challenges they face. One example that really helped me was with Burgess' Bird Book - the members provided great ideas for narrating because that book is HARD to narrate!!
...There are others, but as a CM-structured mom, I do see value in taking advantage of the good work those AO Advisory Moms did and make use of that curriculum - choices and scheduling. Particularly because initially, if you've read CM, and you see great truth and good in her ideas and philosophy, you then think - NOW WHAT???? AO answers that - in all ages and grades.
SallyT wrote:
| the idea that someone else who knows better than we do prescribes the books and the methodology? |
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I'm going to assume the best of "hypothetical mom" and assume that (a) she herself chooses the philosophy and methodology she wants to follow in her home, and based on that - (b) there can be legitimate reasons she may choose to extend trust to a group of people/organization (like AO and their advisory board) (or MA and Michele and Kathryn) and responsibly delegate some of her choices (always exercising prudence in choices). In this particular case, CM offers a rich and liberal education that, while not complicated, is a real step out in faith from your standard school-in-a-box curriculum. There can be a learning curve. And a new mom that has read enough to want to pursue this phil. and methods in her home may greatly appreciate the existing experience as she gets her sea legs...or even for the long haul.
So, I'm not sure I meant to provide an apologetic for AO - the program doesn't need *ME* to do that. And, perhaps most hilariously , I don't use AO as written. But, I did want to provide some context in that I think that this article was less about DIY curric versus pre-written curriculum - and more about the validity and strengths of choosing to use AO-as-written. I think primarily, it's a way of saying that AO is a very considered and well-researched curriculum that follows method and philosophy of CM. It's a valid CM option for a mom seeking a CM structured education.
SallyT wrote:
| I'm just interested in perspectives on the role of prepared curriculum |
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Well - it's probably clear by now that I choose not to use prepared or pre-written curriculum, but I'm certain this is an area of family prudence and possibly preference...perhaps maybe even determined by family season.
I don't see the idea of pre-packaged/pre-written curric. as intruding on the parent's primary role as educator. If I, as a parent, choose to delegate some educational choices (methods, book choices, even scheduling choices), then hopefully I do so prayerfully and thoughtfully, and I am still exercising my role as my child's primary educator in much the same way I would be if I enrolled my children in a private Catholic school. I would be responsibly delegating...but not abdicating. If that makes sense.
Running...and I've said enough! 
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Jen Mackintosh
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Wildflowers and Marbles
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MarilynW
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 7:58pm | IP Logged
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Mackfam wrote:
I don't see the idea of pre-packaged/pre-written curric. as intruding on the parent's primary role as educator. If I, as a parent, choose to delegate some educational choices (methods, book choices, even scheduling choices), then hopefully I do so prayerfully and thoughtfully, and I am still exercising my role as my child's primary educator in much the same way I would be if I enrolled my children in a private Catholic school. I would be responsibly delegating...but not abdicating. If that makes sense.
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I feel this way too. After many years of homeschooling, I have realized that I need to discern prayerfully for each child, each year and in each season of the family life. I have to remember that homeschooling is less about the "curriculum" than it is about our primary goal which is for all of us to be saints and get to Heaven together. The best curriculum is the one that does that. I think CM with it emphasis on relationship and "atmosphere, discipline, life" works well with this goal.
I have also learned that I sometimes have to put aside "MY" views on the perfect education, and use methods that may be more in the best interests of a particular child, their personality and learning style, and the needs of the family as a whole. And of course different seasons of life have called upon different homeschooling methods too (eg hyperemesis, new babies, caring for aging parents etc)
Maybe I am getting older and wiser (or maybe just too tired right now!!!!) but I am also learning that I can let the "perfect plans" go and accept "good" ones. When I have limited time and energy - using some ready plans, at least as a base to tweak, enables me to spend more time teaching and with the kids, then hours researching and planning.
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SallyT
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 8:17pm | IP Logged
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Interesting discussion thus far. I don't know that I was really looking for anything, just turning that blog post over in my mind.
It's not that I actually think that using a packaged curriculum says you've ceded authority in your homeschool, or that it intrudes on your role as educator. I really like Jen's notion of "delegating," which I have done in one way or another through the years. If I'm okay with delegating my son's science education to an outside teacher, then why the heck am I raising that question at all. Really, it's probably a non-question, or at least one with an answer so obvious that . . . it's a non-question.
I guess one line of thinking the blog post suggested to me was: My children went to school. I didn't like what they were learning. Well, really, I didn't like that they didn't seem to be learning that much of value, and certainly nothing to awaken the intellectual, creative, or moral imagination. So my primary reason for making the leap into homeschooling in the first place was to get to choose better things. And I suppose my line of thinking was, and has continued to be, "I can beat school at its own game." And also, "I know my children, and who are you, again?"
Of course, I have CM to thank for handing me vocabulary like "twaddle." What my oldest daughter was learning in school was, by and large, twaddle. I also have CM to thank -- in the guises of both Mater Amabilis and AO, though I have used and continue to use more of Mater Amabilis -- for coming to my rescue with, in many ways, exactly what I was looking for in terms of literary riches.
So, I dunno. I wasn't really questioning AO, which I admire greatly, though we've only pulled from it and not really used it as a complete program. And I did get that what she was really doing was saying, "It's okay to trust this program and method." And I guess trust, and discerning where and when to trust others' choices, is really the bottom line.
And yes, speaking of trust, it's hard for many people to trust that "read and narrate" can really be enough!
Also, like Lindsay, I did feel a bit like, "Oh, I shouldn't be doing this customizing business?" But then, we're really more of a philosophical-hybrid homeschool anyway . . . which makes me wonder why I have any reaction to a blog post speaking to an AO-using CM audience! While I'm at it, why don't I just weigh in on the politics of another country or something?
:)
Sally
PS: What Marilyn says also resonates with me: I'm prompted to wonder whether I'm over-invested in planning, which I do very much enjoy . . . but it can lead me to start mentally living next year when I need to finish this one.
PPS: I also wonder at what point customizing for a child's needs becomes pandering to a child's desire not to do hard or unpleasant things, or things outside that child's particular mental box. On the one hand, here's Miss Mason saying not to let subjective interests dictate curriculum choices, and to back that up, here is the complete curriculum, for everyone. And I really see the wisdom of this, because it is all too easy to say, well my child likes X -- or perhaps more perilously, *I* like X -- so X is what we will do! Which means we don't do Y, because we don't like Y so much. Too much of that, and you rob the child of an opportunity for virtue, in attempting something he doesn't find easy or pleasant or shaped to his particular interest. You may also be robbing him of an interest he wouldn't know he had without being pushed to encounter something in an assigned book not of his choosing. So I do really get that, even if sometimes I bend that rule a little.
And I now don't remember what my "on the other hand" was going to be. Maybe it was just that sometimes a child's interest is like a wave you catch, and one of the nice things about homeschooling is that you have the space to catch some unexpected waves. But do you want that wave to become a tsunami that drowns out everything else? There is where some structure, even if yours is a fairly fluid one, can help keep things in balance. And we're back to Miss Mason, knowing this already.
OK, this is Night One of my husband's weekend retreat, but I must not avoid my lonely bed any longer!
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 11:34pm | IP Logged
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I'm mainly playing devil's advocate in this thread because I don't use AO as written - I enjoy their booklists, resources, and member insight on various books. I'm a huge advocate and fan of building a booklist that meets individual children (read: my children) where they are and stretches them forward. In short, I am a CM DIYer.
I don't feel a sense of pride nor ashamed of that - not better-than nor less-than. I'd say I'm content, but also really open and looking to always learn more...to improve.
I do think I know what you mean about tone after re-reading the article with your view point in mind. I guess if I were posting on why I DIY my children's CM education, I suspect that a prepackaged curriculum user could read it and think, "I wonder if I shouldn't be doing this prepackaged business?" I wonder if it was just a by-product of her passion for AO that left this impression?
And...it's probably worth noting, but many AO users tweak and customize. They sub books. So...I really don't think there are that many that use it precisely/exactly as written.
I love planning, too.  So...I'm no help there.
Anyway...interesting thoughts. I guess it is puzzling that the post struck you as relevant - or at least enough to give you pause and make you internally ask yourself this question about DIY. Is it because the blog writer is perceived as an authority of sorts on CM?
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Jen Mackintosh
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 04 2014 at 11:43pm | IP Logged
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Agh...you were editing your post while I was posting.
SallyT wrote:
PPS: I also wonder at what point customizing for a child's needs becomes pandering to a child's desire not to do hard or unpleasant things, or things outside that child's particular mental box. On the one hand, here's Miss Mason saying not to let subjective interests dictate curriculum choices, and to back that up, here is the complete curriculum, for everyone. And I really see the wisdom of this, because it is all too easy to say, well my child likes X -- or perhaps more perilously, *I* like X -- so X is what we will do! Which means we don't do Y, because we don't like Y so much. Too much of that, and you rob the child of an opportunity for virtue, in attempting something he doesn't find easy or pleasant or shaped to his particular interest. You may also be robbing him of an interest he wouldn't know he had without being pushed to encounter something in an assigned book not of his choosing. So I do really get that, even if sometimes I bend that rule a little.
And I now don't remember what my "on the other hand" was going to be. Maybe it was just that sometimes a child's interest is like a wave you catch, and one of the nice things about homeschooling is that you have the space to catch some unexpected waves. But do you want that wave to become a tsunami that drowns out everything else? There is where some structure, even if yours is a fairly fluid one, can help keep things in balance. And we're back to Miss Mason, knowing this already. |
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I laugh at how you answer your own questions. But they're good answers.
Yes - I do love how Mason understood the necessity of building those habits of attentiveness in the *discipline* parts of education. Those things that a child may not relish, but must attend to with the same effort because they ought to do them.
And you're right - Miss Mason did provide for so much respect for the child within her curriculum. There was a great deal of freedom within limits there. You must read. You must narrate. How that narration looks may vary. You may notebook in some instances, but the entry in the notebook must be the child's choice. So there is respect of the child at the same time there is structure and a boundary to move within.
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Jen Mackintosh
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Wildflowers and Marbles
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SallyT
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| Posted: April 05 2014 at 6:34am | IP Logged
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Yeah, I know -- I don't exactly know why it struck me as relevant. It came up in my Pinterest feed, and then I saw it referenced elsewhere, and it did catch at my attention. I think my initial, probably careless takeaway was: if you're a DIY-er, then you're really not doing what CM envisioned.
And yes, even though I don't spend much time in "real" CM circles, I guess I thought . . . oh, she sounds pretty authoritative, and she knows more about all this than I do, so of course she's right, and what am I doing wasting my time? I was also interested in some of the comments -- very nice and interesting conversation, but I was struck by one commenter's saying that whenever a book went wrong, it was always something she chose.
Now, I *know* that in many ways, *how* I do DIY homeschool is not really what CM envisioned. We're very much "in the spirit of." But I thought, wow. "In the spirit of" really might be way farther afield than I thought.
And no, I don't think I feel prideful either about the designing I do -- I hope not --though I can be know-it-ally about things I do know a lot about, and it's a useful corrective to me, maybe, to consider that there's wisdom, quite possibly greater than my own, just sitting there waiting for me to take hold of it.
Sally
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mamaslearning
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In a broader sense, I too have felt at times that designing and planning an eclectic curriculum (be it CM, classical, or other method/philosophy) was the goal of a TRUE home educating mom. Nobody ever told me this, but I think it internalized because the only successful articles/blogs that I have read were all written by families that use this approach. Plus, if you don't tweak then you are not listening to the needs of your children. Not that they were experts, but they were the vast majority as compared to someone using a boxed/directed curriculum. Also, if you read many of these articles/blogs, you will find a subtle tone that indicates most families feel this way. If a directed curriculum is used, then there is also an adamant statement about tweaking and doing what's best for the family lest anyone think the directed curriculum was used *as is*. KWIM? Have you read this tone online?
I don't feel that way now, but it was something that I wrestled with each year. Even now, I still have that thought of clarifying my choices. I think it is almost a habit now, one that I wish and hope to break as I grow more confident in our choices and direction.
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CrunchyMom
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I read limited homeschool blogs, but I think that if you notice that a lot of bloggers do their own thing, if they didn't, there really isn't much to blog about, yk? The CM bloggers sometimes talk about implementation but use AO almost exclusively, but in general, I think that the online perception might be skewed because someone who bothers to blog about education is probably someone who is inclined that way, but I don't know anyone in real life who does their own thing. 
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 05 2014 at 8:15am | IP Logged
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CrunchyMom wrote:
I don't know anyone in real life who does their own thing.
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That's my own experience, too. So I've always seen the blogging community as one that is able to offer this support and encouragement to those that may choose to design/DIY their own curriculum as well as providing a sense of community that springs from a common and shared approach.
I'm not sure I pick up on the same tone of "if you're not DIYing, then you're NOT listening to your child's needs" from other home ed bloggers. But maybe my perpective is such that I just don't focus on that when I read blogs. I suppose it makes me consider my own interior attitude when I read a blog article, and maybe that's relevant because Brandy's post on why she doesn't DIY didn't strike me in the same way it did others - even though I clearly wasn't part of the "choir" she was preaching to.
I suppose I read blogs as a way of gathering ideas and insight. They're like a bouquet to me. I read with contentment (because I delight in our days and our atmosphere of learning), confidence (because I've grown in enough experience that I see fruit), commitment (to the philosophy and methods of CM - which I think has allowed for a consistency over the years that has been a benefit to my children that may extend some forgiveness over my {many} mis-steps and mistakes), and open-ness (because I always enjoy learning from others in ways that foster more beauty in my days).
I'm so grateful to all the home educators that share online!! It's a medium that asks you to step away and pour yourself out a bit, and that takes time. So the sharing is a bit of a gift of self - and I really appreciate that!
But I do think there is something in your observation, Lindsay. All pre-packaged providers have their own support base and platform. Blogs tend to exist as the platform that curriculum DIYers choose to express the *how* of their days. In expressing the *why* of their day, there really can't help but be an expression of passion, just as Brandy did in her post. But I don't think it's fair to the blogger to misplace their passion as a blanket statement that implies - I'm right and if you're not doing it this way, you're wrong.
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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mamaslearning
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| Posted: April 05 2014 at 8:28am | IP Logged
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You know, I didn't even think about the support sites for non-DIY homeschoolers. I guess since I don't read those, I don't see how successful they are in their day-to-day learning. That makes sense as to why most blogs are directed to or by a DIY style of learning. Hmm, something to consider, thanks!
mackfam wrote:
| But I don't think it's fair to the blogger to misplace their passion as a blanket statement that implies - I'm right and if you're not doing it this way, you're wrong. |
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That is always good to keep in mind! Sometimes we unconsciously look for a validation to our fears, and coming across a passionate article will justify our underlying fears.
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Lara
DD 11, DS 8, DS 6, DS 4
St. Francis de Sales Homeschool
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Mackfam
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| Posted: April 05 2014 at 8:46am | IP Logged
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mamaslearning wrote:
| You know, I didn't even think about the support sites for non-DIY homeschoolers. I guess since I don't read those, I don't see how successful they are in their day-to-day learning. |
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You're reading one right now, Lara!
The 4Real Forums were created and continue to function with the role of supporting those that DIY their curriculum based on living books!  And I believe we're the ONLY large online gathering that exists with that function. Other pre-packaged homeschool curriculum have their own support systems - which is great for them! The 4Real mission of supporting home educators that DIY has been very consciously maintained over the years in order to focus support that encourages and seeks to build-up the home educator that is DIYing. It's why I landed here 8 years ago (wow!  ) and why I stay!
So...you're in a great place right here at 4Real to observe DIY successes........as well as mis-steps-that-function-as-learning-experiences!
Anyway, all that to say that I'm glad YOU ARE HERE, Lara!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19, ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
Wildflowers and Marbles
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CrunchyMom
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Mackfam wrote:
| But I don't think it's fair to the blogger to misplace their passion as a blanket statement that implies - I'm right and if you're not doing it this way, you're wrong. |
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I was thinking sbout this last night and realized, too, thst in the instance of this particular piece, I don't read this blogger regularly, so what I am seeing is not in the context of her overall writings. It is very easy to misread tone when one is looking selectively at a shorter piece expressing an opinion bluntly without considering how the same suthor might have explored nuances and such in other writings.
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Lindsay
Five Boys(6/04) (6/06) (9/08)(3/11),(7/13), and 1 girl (5/16)
My Symphony
[URL=http://mysymphonygarden.blogspot.com/]Lost in the Cosmos[/UR
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SallyT
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I too am really grateful for this forum, and for conversations like this, however muddled my own contributions are. I have to think through a whole flow of questions and ideas with no idea where I'm going even to start to know why I raised the questions to begin with! And I can't think of too many groups of people who would have this much patience with that kind of process.
I don't do much blog-reading, either, because I tend to get sucked into one approach, then another, then another . . . I have to limit what I read for the sake of my own clarity, and keep what I really do believe and care about *carefully* and *deliberately* in my sights. I am too susceptible to let myself do otherwise. I fall too easily into the trap of odious comparisons, and my confessor is really sick of hearing about it.
The philosophical strands that attracted me from the beginning were, in order of attraction:
1. CM
2. classical
3. unschooling
Uh, cognitive dissonance much? Or maybe not? I know by now that most of my attraction to classical education is subsumed by CM, which I believe offers a far broader and deeper classical education that anything else I've seen on offer anywhere.
But then there's the unschooling strand. I've known from the beginning that I wasn't a true, "radical" unschooler, because I come too equipped with strong ideas about what a good education constitutes -- which was why we quit going to school in the first place. Our first couple of years were very unschooly, largely because we had a strong need to de-school and recover from certain good-but-disruptive events in our family life, but even then, as I was hanging out with people whose children never seemed to do anything they didn't want to do ("Well, she reads a lot of romance novels, but hey, it's reading"), I knew I didn't want to go that far in that direction. I love freedom, but I also love rigor.
Ultimately, though, what I think I've retained from my initial attraction to unschooling and my subsequent experiences in that realm is the sense that rich learning can and frequently does happen serendipitously, in the world outside the schedule of readings -- and if I observe that a particular kind of learning is happening richly outside "school," I count it as school. That impulse too could probably be folded somehow under the CM umbrella, as perhaps a very broad interpretation of Masterly Inactivity. And I tend to be pretty fluid about our school schedule and how things get done . . . Structure R Not Me, that's for sure. Still, I get that CM is not unschooling, and philosophically, at least, I come down hard on her side. Methodically . . . maybe not so much.
So, so far I've produced one successful graduate (who a year from now, God willing, will be a college graduate, which is a little freaky) and have a high-performing high-schooler -- yet I always doubt myself and sense these philosophical friction points! In one way, that's a good thing, because what's good can always get better. But looking at my younger kids, I find myself right now falling into precisely what I've always fallen into with them, which is thinking, "YOU, who have never been to school! YOU are my putty! I WILL mold you into even more excellent people than your brother and sister are! Bwa ha ha." Which is silly.
And then I try to remember what I did the last time I did, say, 6th grade, that seems to have worked out so well, and even though I thought I was taking careful notes . . . it all seems kind of sketchy and inadequate to me now. I think I'm having a little crisis of having thought that by now surely things would have fallen into place and I'd be moving forward confidently, but that has not happened in the way that I had envisioned. Part of me loves DIY, and part of me is kind of tired of inventing the wheel over and over for each child.
On top of all the existential/philosophical angst, I do have a question pertaining more or less to the original post, and it is this:
Jen, but also anyone else -- When you do substitute/DIY/ tweak, within the framework of a given program like AO, how would you characterize your principle for substitution?
Let me clarify: Jen, I know from reading your posts that you have a very clear set of CM criteria for making use of materials that might fall outside the AO perimeter. That I totally get. My question is more about the principle that would lead you to substitute Book B for AO's assigned Book A in the first place. I can think of some possible principles that *might* be in play:
1. Catholicity.
Needing to choose a Catholic alternative on one level or another to what AO has set for a given level/year. More obviously a problem if you're using AO than if you use MA or another Catholic program, though some people do make religion substitutions there, too.
2. Discovery of newer/alternative books that qualify as "living" and the desire to work them somehow into the year's schedule.
I'd say actually that this second element drives a lot of my own DIY-ing -- that I either already own a book I want to use, and it will work in place of a book in the MA schedule, or I've stumbled across a resource that by my lights fits the "living" criteria and again, I think it would work well in a given slot. Mostly, though, I'm cheap. I really want to use good books I've inherited, been given, or picked up in sales. So I tend to build my year for a particular child around what's already on my shelf, given that by and large it's good stuff. I won't use it if it's not. I use MA as a template and schedule, especially for history, but if I already have resources that coordinate with the level I'm doing, that's what I'll use.
3. Need to customize for a child's level/strengths/weaknesses.
Again, I don't want to pander, but I have a child with some significant difficulties, and figuring out how to feed her richly without overloading her is a constant challenge. I read to and with her a lot, still, but I do want her to have some things she can read herself without either being overwhelmed or feeling she's being babied (or encouraging her to think, "This affliction means I can't do it" I'm hoping therapy will make a difference, but until it does, this is where we are).
4. Books that are set aren't a good fit.
This one is tricky. There's a fine line between "not a good fit" and "child just doesn't love it and is moaning." For me, I guess what I weigh in the balance on the front end is just how great the value of that particular book is in proportion to the amount of moaning that's going to accompany it. I can often look at what's set for a level in MA and predict what's just. not. going. to be a favorite. "Just not a favorite" isn't a reason to switch out a book; "unreadable by this child this year" is. Ditto "source of unrelenting misery." I really try on the front end to plan books whose difficulty and initial unpalatability are going to fall short of that last mark, even if they never become beloved classics in our home.
So, I can think of, and obviously use, those principles for inventing variations on existing programs. (well, there's that, and I just like a lot of AO's booklists, even though I'm looking at MA as my template.). I don't know whether this is a good touchpoint for more discussion, but I'm definitely feeling discussion-y!
Sally
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SallyT
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Oh, and I do agree that it's easy, but a mistake, to characterize a blogger's tone based on one piece. I certainly did not mean to characterize her piece in a way that was unfair or reductive. If her piece made me self-critical, then that's what happened in *my* mind, not in her intentions.
Off to take tonight's dinner chef shopping for some last-minute food items!
Sally
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: CM and DIY Curriculum
