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Cay Gibson
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I read this ??? elsewhere and thought it was an interesting (even if broad) ??? to discuss.
What knowledge is essential for a person to be considered educated?
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Cay Gibson
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Paula in MN
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I think reading and writing are enough. If you can read and can communicate with others verbally or in writing, you can teach yourself anything else you need to know. Including math!
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 Paula
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stellamaris
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Depends upon whose definition of "educated" you are using. A traditional Western definition? An Asian definition? What about "educated" to a specific vocation?
"Educated" is a very amorphous, undefined term! What does the author use as his/her definition in the book?
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JodieLyn
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yes, that's true, but you can't carry on an intelligent coversation about common topics if you don't have a certain level of proficiency. Even if you're not up on current topics, you need to be able to understand the other person and if you don't have the vocabulary to understand what was said you can't even ask meaningful questions to find out more.
I mean it's ok if you don't know a particular professions vocabulary... for instance car mechanics or medical lingo or lawyer-ese. Even computer-ese.. but some things are so normal to everyday life you really should know something about it. Think of all the trust you'd have to put in a doctor or mechanic or lawyer if you didn't have a clue what you needed.. or couldn't understand their explainations.
Teaching yourself math is nice.. but just to live life you need a certain proficiency or you'd go to the store and hand the cashier a $20 and say.. so is this enough to cover that item. Or open your wallet and say "take what you need"?
So I would say that a basic proficiency in math is needed no matter what you do. Even if you're a whiz at some profession.. you won't look good if you go out to a resturant and can't figure the tip. (hint 10% plus half of 10% is faster to figure than 15%  )
It takes a certain amount of logical reasoning to be able to reason logically as well. Math does that.. helps create logical reasoning pathways.
But once you get into "higher" math I think the benefit without need for that particular skill goes down.
So I would say good reading skills, good communication skills, both written and oral. and good basic math skills. And written or reading skills don't need grammar.. some people can benefit from learning the technical reasonings but others can do it just by learning what "sounds" right.
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Willa
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In our country, I think literacy and arithmetic is "enough" to go on, plus the ability to work hard and research what you need to know. Some basic common sense seems very important too -- an ability to judge what's good and what's not -- though I'm not sure if that counts as education. Schools nowadays don't really seem to teach it, anyway.
I don't think anyone up to perhaps post WWII would have thought that a true "education" though. An education used to mean wide intelligent reading in the classics, a fair acquaintance with Latin, and the ability to discern beyond appearances and evaluate whether various arguments were sound or not.
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lapazfarm
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Well, I do think there is a difference between "literate" and "educated".
To simply be able to read, write, do basic math and carry on a conversation makes one literate. It does not make one educated. At least not in my mind. So while literacy is the first step to education, it is only the *first* step, not the whole shebang.
I think the pre-WWII definition Willa pointed out:
"An education used to mean wide intelligent reading in the classics, a fair acquaintance with Latin, and the ability to discern beyond appearances and evaluate whether various arguments were sound or not" still applies, with some variations and additions.
As we have discussed, our list of what is "classic" literature is open to wide interpretation, though few of us would dispute that an education includes exposure to quality literature of some sort.
Latin, though very enriching, is just not as essential as it once was, due to both church documents and scientific works now being published in the vernacular.
The ability to discern and critique falls under critical thinking skills and is as important now as ever. Just because it is not as commonly taught as a subject in our society these days does not diminish it's relevance as a part of being "educated".
Of course, what's missing from this definition is an emphasis on math and the many branches of science (and related technology) which were not as vital in the past as they are these days.Our society has changed so that I cannot see how one could now be considered educated without a working knowledge of these topics.
In my own personal definition I would also include exposure to the arts. An education should be broad as well as deep.
Now, I am not saying that we are uneducated until we have learned everything we need to know in every subject. (Because we should always be striving to further educate ourselves) But I don't see how a person could be considered educated without being at least partway down the path, the basics in hand, seeking depth and breadth.
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stellamaris
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Willa wrote:
| An education used to mean wide intelligent reading in the classics, a fair acquaintance with Latin, and the ability to discern beyond appearances and evaluate whether various arguments were sound or not. |
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I agree that when you start talking "educated" you are going beyond literate. Wide reading in the classics produced an extensive knowledge of history, philosophy, and government, not just of literature per se. Part of being educated is being able to place the problems and challenges of the present day in their historical context in order to more accurately analyze and address them. This is why oppressive governments spend quite a lot of effort altering history and generally reducing the level of knowledge of their citizenry...it is easier to fool poorly or falsely educated people.
I also think an educated person has the capability to understand worldviews other than their own, even if they disagree with them.
ETA: Also, in our time, a basic knowledge of science and technology are necessary to be able to address some of the complex issues our culture is confronting...although a person with a scientific education without a moral and philosophical basis is entirely unfit to discern the proper uses/limits of technology.
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JodieLyn
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hmm but is reading in literature and history particular knowledge to acquire? or is there a wide variance in what you might read?
I guess I was looking at the basics that everyone should acquire.. and then leaving the further reaches more open to variations.
focusing more on "essential knowledge" than on "education"
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Kathryn
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It's interesting as I was reading and posting and it made me think further b/c the title asks "What essential knowledge is required?" and I thought as Jodie did along the basics. But I guess what you really wonder in your post is "What essential knowledge is required...to be considered educated?" I think that can have a different answer.
Willa wrote:
| Some basic common sense seems very important too -- an ability to judge what's good and what's not -- though I'm not sure if that counts as education. |
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I'm not sure this would count as education either but having one child that seems to not understand typical nuances and idioms makes him APPEAR "uneducated" so this is an area we work on. The smartest person (bookwise) in a room can come across as a dim bulb without that common sense and therefore their credibility (and therefore education) could become questionable.
lapazfarm wrote:
The ability to discern and critique falls under critical thinking skills and is as important now as ever. Just because it is not as commonly taught as a subject in our society these days does not diminish it's relevance as a part of being "educated".
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AMEN AMEN to critical thinking skills. Since we live in such a time of mass, MASS media, the flow of information can be overwhelming and I think these critical thinking skills are an absolute must. How to best teach that is open for discussion.
Last, in discussing grammar with my daughter today (as her frustration was growing), I told her that I know she's never heard me talk about objects of prepositions and subjective complements etc. but that the terms and definitions are not as important as just knowing how to put together a good sentence. So, I agree that the ability to communicate with exceptional skill, both orally and in writing, is a must. Again, if there are poor communication skills, a person can APPEAR uneducated.
So, there's my long-winded opinion and hopefully I don't sound too uneducated. 
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Willa
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Kathryn wrote:
| But I guess what you really wonder in your post is "What essential knowledge is required...to be considered educated?" I think that can have a different answer. |
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Yes, good distinction. Simple "essential knowledge" would look different from "to be considered educated". Really, you don't have to be "considered educated" to get along pretty well in our country. But you probably do need to have some basic knowledge down even if it's mostly hands-on and practical -- I know people in my mountain town who are barely functionally literate yet are successes at their trade whatever it happens to be.
JodieLyn wrote:
hmm but is reading in literature and history particular knowledge to acquire? or is there a wide variance in what you might read?
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I think the idea back then was that the reading helped develop good judgment and a sense of perspective and discrimination -- the reading wasn't just literature but also philosophy, history and such things. It was "the best that has been thought and said". It developed the thinking process beyond simple literacy and beyond just a specialized kind of education like accounting or engineering, etc.
Back then there was a fairly standard core of Great Books with not a whole lot of variation. True, it is not so now  and most of us don't get that kind of education. You may read I, Rigoberta Menchu or The Color Purple or Romeo and Juliet or Fahrenheit 491 for literature and most of us will probably read textbooks to learn about history and government and science. So nowadays, what's meant by history and literature does vary widely. (though I think it usually at least tries to deal with universal human themes and things you need to know to be an informed citizen in our country).
But yes, I agree that the essential knowledge to get along in our society and for any kind of further learning is literacy and probably some kind of base in arithmetic. In our country, if you get those down solidly by the time you leave high school you're doing pretty well. Perhaps a bonus would be some sort of general knowledge say, about history and science, though once you're literate you can acquire a lot of that kind of thing without much trouble.
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Willa
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lapazfarm wrote:
Now, I am not saying that we are uneducated until we have learned everything we need to know in every subject. (Because we should always be striving to further educate ourselves) But I don't see how a person could be considered educated without being at least partway down the path, the basics in hand, seeking depth and breadth.
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I'm glad you mentioned that -- the ability and motivation to keep learning through life is a quality that I think is important in education. It's hard to put into words exactly but there's a sort of complacent ignorance you sometimes see (sometimes you see it in your own children -- or at least, I have seen it at certain phases of the child's development). Thinking that one is "educated enough" probably means one is not. Most of the people I know are motivated to keep going to acquire more depth and breadth at least in certain areas, and that seems to me to be a mark of success even if the person hasn't happened to receive a totally excellent education.
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Connections
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I wonder if there is also a distinction between skills and knowledge. Skills, it seems, are the "how-to" types of knowledge. For me this includes basic skills of reading, writing, math computation, reasoning/critical thinking, oral communication (asking intelligent questions, listening and speaking), social skills, computer and technology know-how, the ability to perform well on tests and in class and financial management (balancing a checkbook, maintaining a home, taxes, investments, etc.). These skills may even lead to confidence in undertaking the quest to continue acquiring knowledge.
The skills, it seems, are then used to acquire knowledge (or perhaps even to bluff in situations where you have not acquired the knowledge). I believe essential knowledge is very dependent on one's chosen career path. It is the depth. The intricate understanding of a subject matter. I do not believe that one can successfully acquire both depth of knowledge and breath of topics that one knows inside out. In other words, you can know a lot about a few things, a little about a lot of things, or even a lot about a few things AND a little about a lot of things. I do not believe, however, that you can know a lot about ALL things.
Of course, each career will also require additional skills.
Which is what makes this homeschooling thing such a challenge (one of the things, anyway). We are guessing at what to "require" our children to learn. A lot of what we think is important for them to learn may end up to not seem so important after all- once they have chosen a career path.
I do think mastering the basic skills I mentioned is essential.
Beyond that, and I am stating the obvious here, a knowledge of the Faith, is essential no matter what career path is chosen.
At a certain age, I also believe that knowledge of current events is essential (certainly it was essential in my interviewing and then working days).
ETA- What I think this boils down to is, in addition to basic skills, I try to follow CM's advice and provide a feast of living ideas (in books and real life) and see what inspires my children. Of course, I bang my head against the wall (not literally...yet) from time to time trying to define the essential knowledge they need. Usually, I end up here again, thinking that what is essential knowledge will vary from child to child and exploring life, classic literature, art, etc. is the best I can provide.
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Kathryn
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Connections wrote:
Which is what makes this homeschooling thing such a challenge (one of the things, anyway). We are guessing at what to "require" our children to learn. A lot of what we think is important for them to learn may end up to not seem so important after all- once they have chosen a career path.
I do think mastering the basic skills I mentioned is essential.
Beyond that, and I am stating the obvious here, a knowledge of the Faith, is essential no matter what career path is chosen.
At a certain age, I also believe that knowledge of current events is essential.
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YES!! I have one child who seems to be able to go above and beyond what's "required" and can expand her knowledge in many areas and get what seems to be a "real" education. But who defines that "real" term? I have another child that struggles greatly to learn basic skills. I sometimes feel like I'm doing him a disservice by just providing the "basics" as opposed to what *I* view as an "education". I remind myself often that they were both made for God's purpose, not mine or the world's view. Of course that is constantly questioned by all the other outside voices.
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: What Essential Knowledge is Needed?
