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Liz D
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We're into our 4th year of hs. The first two yrs I followed Laura Berquist basically. Then last yr we did SL7 (Amer. History). I didn't want to do SL8 and heard about Elizabeth's Transition guide. Saw it and loved it. My son wasn't as thrilled but I went forward and got the books,etc.
He's now complaining more and more. Doesn't want to narrate, read Sr. Wendy,copy a picture, take notes, write commentaries, or do most of the readings-Mere Christianity,Wise Woman,and some others. He feels he has to do more work than kids he knows in the public schools or other homeschoolers. When I ask what he wants to do he has no answer or just read books.
I asked him today to tell me 5 things he liked about hs this year and saw him shake his head. I asked him why he was shaking his head,he said he didn't want to,that was just more work for him to do.
I wouldn't say my homeschooling with him has ever been a success. He's always tried to do the minimum and excellence in the product is never his goal. I'd hear he was somewhat lazy in the public school but still a good student. He's fairly social and generally well liked.
I also haven't found my groove as teacher, as you can see from my curriculum changes. I love children's lit and to read aloud. That's probably my only strength. Not good at discussing and ds has no interest in talking with me or dh.
My ds is generally pleasant, respectful, obedient,and has a great sense of humor. His interests are cars and hanging with his friends as much as posssible. With the friends, he plays basketball and video games at their homes . We don't do TV,video games, or computer games at home but don't forbid it at other's homes.
He is the 4th of six kids-22dd,20yods,18yodd(all in college and ps grads; both dds live at home). I'm hsing a 9yo dd and 7yo ds also.
What do I do with this mess? Or do I just ignore him and say if you want out of the house to play do it my way? Or is hs a mistake with him in general? Or is thisjust caseof the proper habits never being instilled? It's hard to give curriculum choices when the answer is nothing. BTW, We are only on module 7 of a 36 module. I don't have him do absolutely everything and my plan is to stretch the curriculum for 2 yrs with additional history added. I love the Transitions guide- what a great apologetics course for a teen. I have and read Real Learning-like it but don't always know how to implement everything she writes about into my life.
I hope this makes sense and someone has insight to offer me. I would be very grateful for any help.
God Bless,
LizD
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Liz
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Victoria in AZ
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Hi, Liz,
I am sure someone with more experience than I will respond with more insight than I. For now I can merely commiserate. My son is also 14. Excellence in product is not his goal either, and he does a fair amount of belly aching if the work begins to seem too difficult. When I can tell that he's overwhelmed, I limit the struggle by giving him a time limit. Something like this: 15 minutes at keyboarding, 20 minutes at math lesson, 30 minutes at science lesson, always with breaks in between. What amount of time per day do feel is fair?
Let him know you hear him. Literally repeat his words to you. Then address his complaints. Why does he think other students have it easier than him? Can you show him the amount of work in a Saxon program or can he compare the hours put in at the public school? For what it's worth, my son is not a Sr. Wendy fan either. You mention he likes cars and basketball; perhaps his reading and narration could be tied to these subjects. That's one of the most wonderful things about homeschooling. Liz, if my son said he wanted to "just read" I'd be jumping for joy. He does next to zero reading for pleasure. Some ideas off the top of my head: a how to draw cars book (these books can be quite complicated and definitely made for upper grade level), a biography of Ford and the Model T, the movie _The Basket_ which has a neat basketball theme, with info on both World War II and an opera--both of which could lead to further rabbit trails.
You mention many other positive traits about your son (respectful, obedient, pleasant) and these are examples of proper habits already being instilled. Good job Mom! My gut instinct is that hs is not a mistake and that sending a child away to school can rarely solve problems. Hang in there. You can both make this work.
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Your sister in Christ,
Victoria in AZ
dh Mike 24 yrs; ds Kyle 18; dd Katie 12; and one funny pug
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Leonie
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I wonder if you and your son have different learning styles.
Sometimes, we think a product or curriculum is fantastic - but that is because it fits our learning style. It just doesn't necessarily fit with our dc's learning style!
Maybe you can read a bit on Howard Gardner's Learning Styles - for example, In Their Own Way, by Thomas Armstrong. These sorts of books give me clues on tweaking things to suit my ds' learning styles - and thus, their motivation and interest.
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Leonie in Sydney
Living Without School
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Elizabeth
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I have about two minutes and I do promise to be back. First, Sr. Wendy: my son drew several of the pictures in Real Learning. He loves art and it is his gift. Remember, Transitions was written for him. Hence, Sr. Wendy. Just ignore her if you want  . Most teenagers like to argue. They can sink their teeth into apologetics. I'd do the History CDs and the apologetics reading from now until the end of school. Keep up with math (we didn't and we're still paying) and then let him read everything he can about cars...need to go get people to bed. More tomorrow 
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Liz D
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Victoria,Leonie, Elizabeth,
Thank you, thank you! I think you're right about Sr. Wendy.To me it looks like a great opportunity to learn about art- something I never was exposed to. I'll drop that and see if there is some other art that appeals to him and try an entirely different subject.
I don't know his learning style. He's more of a mystery to me than the younger two- not that I have them completely nailed down either. So thanks for the book recommendation.
I will try listening and encouraging him more efectively. I would like to involve his interests in schoolwork, too.
He's a 9th grader so I concerned about that his work can count towards high school credit.
Another question: He does a written narration for Christ the King Lord of History- it's long and pretty thorough but took him about an hour or two to write. He thinks that's unreasonable. I was so pleased. Is that how long it would take your kids? My question isn't very clear. I'm not sure how to say it exactly. I guess I mean since we're not use to narrating was that what I'm looking for? Will he eventually think this is a great way to learn? Ot is narrating just not some people's learning style and should be avoided? And of course I wonder if he's being 14 and would complain about anything- which he generally does unless he reads on a subject/novel with no other requirements.
Thank you all again. I appreciate your interest and time.
God bless, Liz
subject with no other requirements. I think the guide is awesome!
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Cindy
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Hi Liz-
Have you considered letting him take the lead in choosing books/activities? (maybe within a list you have created- or from the Transition Guide) At this age often kids needs to feel they are in charge and maybe he is rebelling to feeling he is not.
If he doesn't want to choose them maybe you could choose the best of the best- something that interests you, too. Have him read short selections (and you read or skim them too) and have narration be more in the format of discussion or conversation.
Would your dh want to join in? Often I will clue my dh into what we are reading or currently interests my boys and he will bring it up at dinner. (Taking the opposite side of the arguement often will really get a teen going!)
Less "teacher-student", but instead more "let's share what we read".
And, perhaps ask his opinion--- not just narrate, but what did he think about the piece? Agree, not, why? Dumb, boring, why?.... etc.
Another thought is to introduce him to many different ideas (ala CM's feast of living ideas) through short selctions from different authors/topics and perhaps he will find something he likes and it will become an interst-driven self- study?
Just some ideas... some I'm trying out with my 14 and 11 yo sons....
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Cindy in Texas
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juliecinci
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I'll throw out a few thoughts. We have three teens.
We hit a wall when the older two were in tenth and eighth. They are now tenth and "senior" though the senior is done with high school.
I've observed that teens need adventure. They need to feel that their "work" or "play" is real. They want experiences that aren't always managed by a parent. Homeschoool that focuses a lot on handwriting notes from books they are reading that are then only read by mom seems unreal. (Have you tried it? I sat down and tried to do the Beautiful Feet assignments I was expecting of my teens at the time and I got so bored! I suddenly understood.)
We had to start over and really talk about what they loved and what an ideal day would look like to them. We took a long break of no expectations from me whatsoever.
It was interesting sorting out their needs. Two of my middle kids wanted some curricula and structure. My oldest didn't at all. We read the Teenage Liberation Handbook and discussed it. We looked at ways to meet their various needs (which has included a homeschool co-op, out-of-home art and acting classes, sports, music lessons and part time enrollment at the local high school).
When I find something I think would be wonderful for homeschool, I just do it myself. I love Sr. Wendy for instance and watch her videos anyway. Then those who are interested join me.
So from me to you: I'd say take your son out to breakfast and have a heart to heart about what a great life for him would look like. And trust him. See where it goes. (I will say that you are not alone in reinventing homeschool every year. I think that's part of the nature of the experience.)
Julie
P.S. We do have an X box and computer games which all my boys really enjoy.
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Julie
Homeschooling five for fourteen years
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Cindy
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juliecinci wrote:
I've observed that teens need adventure. They need to feel that their "work" or "play" is real. They want experiences that aren't always managed by a parent. Homeschoool that focuses a lot on handwriting notes from books they are reading that are then only read by mom seems unreal. (Have you tried it? I sat down and tried to do the Beautiful Feet assignments I was expecting of my teens at the time and I got so bored! I suddenly understood.)
When I find something I think would be wonderful for homeschool, I just do it myself. I love Sr. Wendy for instance and watch her videos anyway. Then those who are interested join me....
So from me to you: I'd say take your son out to breakfast and have a heart to heart about what a great life for him would look like. And trust him. See where it goes. (I will say that you are not alone in reinventing homeschool every year. I think that's part of the nature of the experience.)
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Very well said Julie! You write what I think better than I do.... 
Every teen is different.. as every person is different. That is a great reminder to know we have to reinvent for each one.
Also, I have begun to look for books, etc as if I had to do them, too. Whew.. really opens your eyes! I won't give my sons something that I find boring. It makes me think again of respect. Repecting their time and effort they way I would like mine to be respected!
My goal is for them to have self-mastery in habits and life.. and take responsibility for their own education. This, I think, can be even more difficult with 'dreamer' types than task orieneted types... iykwim? But we have lots of time.. and given support, an interesting home life... it will happen. When they are ready.
And, giving the kids boring books to read or 'meaningless' activity does not encourage them to self study... why would they if it seems dull or contrived? Many really good activities may be 'meaningless' to them atm... but could be meaningful to another child or at another time.
I have found in the past months that working in tandem with them, doing my own projects and sharing as you mentioned and validating their 'work' (yes, this includes their digital editing, story writing and Nintendo-level-beating) encourages them to self management in all other areas. Gives them confidence and purpose and I think helps them feel more able to do the things I ask, when I ask.
I should just let you write this.. you could probably do it much more clearly! 
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Cindy in Texas
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Leonie
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I think, too, that a change in mum's attitude helps - at least here!
If I can recognise that my ds' learning styles and interests are different from mine and ARE valid, then I can see and share their learning and excitement in everything - not just "school" areas.
Maybe their experiences won't look like typical school - but isn't that one advantage of home education? Don't we truly want a unique and individualized education for our dc?
We can write this into education-speak, for transcripts, etc.
Hoping these rambles offer some support.
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Leonie in Sydney
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annie
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Hi Liz and everyone,
I have an 15 yr old daughter. She was acting the same way. Not interested, not happy with the way things were going. "Its boring" was said often.
Finally one day we had a heart to heart talk and she told me that she is just so lonely. She said," I think if I have to do one more lesson at home by myself I will scream."
She wants to be in a class with lots of other teens. She wants to hear the laughter and the chit chat and the noise.
She does take dance classes and music lessons outside the home and has about 5 other homeschooling girl friends her age. But she truly misses the "idea" of the energy and fun and excitement of a classroom full of her peers. She has never been to school so I think this may all be a bit romanticized.
But in talking to her I could feel how she felt. I could feel the loneliness she is going through. It made me wonder, "Why can't the schools be wonderful places to go part time to learn wonderful things with wonderful people? It could be that way.
I hope we continue to homeschool through High School as I know this is truly a wonderful education in every sense.
But loneliness is truly a sad and difficult thing to carry. I just don't know what to do about it.
Thanks for being here and for writing such wonderful replies to all of the above posts. This is a good place to be.
Thank you,
Annie
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juliecinci
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We had this exact conversation in our house too.
My 15 year old daughter is one of those "students of people" kind of persons. She loves to observe and gather anecdotes of what other people are doing. She's the one who really insisted on going to school, at least parttime.
It has been eye-opening for her in many ways (some she did not expect). For one thing—she doesn't like it. That was the biggest surprise to me. She says that she really doesn't like the kids. She's amazed at how mean they are to each other, how poorly parented many of them are (she tells me daily of kids whose parents stay out all night or don't care about their kids - of course there are many who do a great job, but she hasn't been around kids who are genuinely mistreated by parents), and how bored everyone is.
She was a part of the color guard and that was a brilliant experience for her in terms of the group experience, the daily drills to work on the routines and the parades and competitions and performances at football games. But she worked her tail off and felt that her peers never had the same level of interest of energy she did and her coach was surly almost all the time.
I've been so frustrated that she hasn't had more fun. She's such a beautiful energetic smart person. I thought her high school experience might be like mine, which was positive. We're in a very celebrated and successful district so I imagined that the experiences would be above average. She does like going to classes, having homework and getting grades, ironically.
But she dropped out of Honor's English when kids started saying that Shakespeare should have been killed so students wouldn't have to read him. They don't love literature like she does so she couldn't handle being in a classroom where they weren't excited about her favorite books and works.
She likes her French class and doesn't want to quit that. She's trying to participate in theater more (she loves acting) but there are no parts for sophomore girls. So she's on crew this year.
Her thinking now is to do as few courses as possible and find more things outside of school to do. She's got lots of friends and is involved in our Shakespeare community here as well as church activities and seeing shows (she's into the music scene around town).
I don't know what the solution is for lonely homeschooled teens. One thing I can say for part time school is that the romanticism was completely over turned by direct experience. And I know that part of growing up is taking some responsibility for decisions about the course of your life. This is one of those where my daughter was able to discover for herself what school is and, in fact, understands better now than ever why we homeschooled her to begin with.
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Julie
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Cindy
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juliecinci wrote:
I don't know what the solution is for lonely homeschooled teens. One thing I can say for part time school is that the romanticism was completely over turned by direct experience. And I know that part of growing up is taking some responsibility for decisions about the course of your life. This is one of those where my daughter was able to discover for herself what school is and, in fact, understands better now than ever why we homeschooled her to begin with. |
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Annie, Julie and all...
Here is the thought that jumped out at me:
For a highly social, people-oriented teen why must that need be satisfied with the organized learning?
What if energy went into finding multiple social situations for this need to be met, ignoring how they played into formal learning. Focus on: hobbies, sports, groups, plays, social situations. etc. If they don't exist, consider starting up everything she is interested in.
This is time consuming (yes), but that is what we mentors are here for.
As far as the learning, what if that was done as informaly as possible, so she did not feel that she was sitting 'alone doing a lesson'. It sounds (Annie) like your dd wants to scream doing the lesson because she associates it with that social time she misses.
Maybe her learning could be self-direted projects for the most part and those things you would like her to be exposed to, you could explore with her (disucssion vs teaching) or if time constraints don't permit, you could give her very short assignments, emphasizing real world research.
In short.. make home as unschooly as possible, focus on relationships and social settings and don't tie the two together. Of course she will learn everywhere, home and out. But if home feels like school, she will miss the disctration of the classroom.
(maybe that is part of it.. that the lessons at home are too schooly and not hands on enough.. so she misses what she thinks the 'fun' part of lessons is .. being the hanging out with others!)
Make any sense? This from a mom without super social kids, but know many who are....
hth and is not way off the mark.....
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Cindy in Texas
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Cindy
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Another thought---
A family we know has a son who is love with the theatre. He started performing when he was 18 months old.. in the family living room.
He is very social, a great kid, loves people, kids and adults. He has high social need and energy level.
He was heavily involved with a little local theater. The mom did Seton as she was pretty tradtional and wanted it laid out for her. (Yes I invited her to CM and CCM many times!) But, it worked for them.
The son would do play practice every day or evening, at noght out until 11pm... sleep in until noon, find a niche to do his lessons.. then out to rehersal, shows, etc. He also took voice and keyboard lessons, wrote his own songs, make tapes, watched movies, etc. I bet the plays and lessons took up 45 hours a week. School was in between.
This is an example to say.. that the focus was on his love and life was formed around that. I think this could be done just as easily with Cm type materials, (even better!), but his needs were met socially- but he had a passion and a place to meet the passion.
Just to throw out for consideration....
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Cindy in Texas
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juliecinci
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Good thoughts Cindy. I would ordinarily agree with you. My oldest lives the way you describe-- he is completely self-directed, is involved in the high school Shakespeare company downtown, plays Magic the Gathering and learning to become a judge, works at Barnes and Noble, reads a TON and is learning constructed languages. He did not like school and only went part-time to satisfy my need to have him do math that he wasn't learning effectively on his own (I couldn't afford a private tutor back then and the high school was free).
Once he discovered that he really disliked school, he quit and has come much more into his own now at 17 and doing nothing "school-ish."
My 15 year old daughter is a totally different case. She *wanted* to see what school was like, having never been. It wasn't just wanting to be social. It was the whole experience of having a locker, eating lunch with friends, riding the bus, having homework. She saw it all around her and felt outside the experience.
So by her choice, she attended part-time last year and again this year (two different schools in the same district).
Her overall feeling about school has dramatically changed and we are looking at new ways to give her the things she needs/wants so that school isn't the only option. But wow is it hard when you have FIVE kids to schelp to all their tailor made programs! I already feel like I live in my car!!!
My dd has discovered that she learns math better with a tutor (I now get to swap services with this tutor so we can afford it) and she does great with writing and English with her dad and me. She knows that I would have no problem with her coming all the way home. (I'd welcome it.) But I don't know how we can do art lessons, theater, French tutoring, and her sciences in addition to math tutoring and all her social needs (to go to the mall, to see her favorite bands, to hang out at the teen youth group at church and so on). She already gets transported more places than any other child.
She starts driving next year so I hope we can GET HER A CAR. My 17 yr. old son bought his car and it's been such an enormous help to me.
I don't know what we'll do next year. My dilemma really does have to do with driving and organizing schedules to coordinate everyone's needs. It wears me out!
Julie
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Julie
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Liz D
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Julie,
I'm wondering where you live in Ohio. I'm from Colu
mbus. Go Bucks!
We don't have the option to do school parttime here or participate in any extracurricular activities with our school district. We have several homescool schools in our area and co-ops.
My ds is attending a homeschool school twice a week for math and English and guitar lessons for three hours per day. It really helps with a child who misses some aspects of a
classroom, yet doesn't seem to come with all the peer pressures of regular high school. I saw plenty of that with my older three children. He's there for lunch so he gets time for some social interaction and has made friends. I feel lucky to have these options.
Cindy's, Leonie's, and your posts are giving me plenty to think about. I'm encouraging him to take more ownership of his schooling choices. I gave him some catalogs to give him some ideas. My two oldest daughters are on springbreak this week so ds and I should be able to slip away for breakfast to talk.
I didn't mention that my dh and ds are working together to rebuild a '88 Chey Nova for a couple hours each weekend. Maybe that can somehow work its way into his transcript!
Thanks for responding to my posts. I don't feel so alone.
Liz
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juliecinci
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Hi Liz!
I'm in Cincinnati but will be speaking in Columbus on April 8-9! Do you know the HOTR group (Home of the Rock) in Spring Grove? They are such a neat homeschooling group. They run a wonderful conference and I have the good fortune of being their primary outside speaker. :)
The co-op situation sounds great. I do think teens enjoy being with their friends so much. It's a huge craving at this age.
Thanks for starting this thread. I've spent some time reflecting on these posts and our family as a result.
Julie
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Julie
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annie
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Yes, this all makes good sense! I will have to look at everything we are doing closer and see how to make it less like school.
The dance and music classes she is involved in were helping in this social regard until the conversation turned to "What school do you attend?"
Her least favorite question in the world!
She is not proud of homeschooling and would rather do anything but tell other teens she is homeschooled. It always changes how they view her and treat her.
Of course, she got the usual questions like "Oh, how awful. How do you meet firends?" Or, "Oh, My parents better never do that to me. My friends are everything!" Here's another, "Oh Man, sitting by yourself all day That is gross!"
She tries to explain that it isn't like that but after this conversation the kids always treat her differently!
And the jokes start flying like, "Well did you just understand what she wants us to do ? Being homeschooled maybe you didn't understand?" Or "Hey do you want me to read the instructions to you?"
These teens have been in school full time since age 5, and do not have any creative thoughts when it comes to someone who is different. It becomes something to use against that person.
WE have tried organizing groups of areas of interest to her but there just isn't enough homeschooled teens in this area. They all go to the local Catholic High School. She does have 5 girlfriends that homeschool, but they are all in volved in different activities. They try and spend at least a couple of hours a month together. (Not really enough)
I need to help her learn how to deal with the schooled teens who will pre-judge her based on erroneous ideas about homeschooling. My daughter is not a debator or an advocant type person. She truly believes that everyone should be treated well and fairly and liked just because they are kind and good. She hates discussing this with other teens and feels that she accepts them for who they are and they should do the same.
Thank you all for your great replies. This has helped us tremendously and I am beginning to see that maybe there are things we can do instead of heading for the Local Catholic High School.
Keep the ideas coming!
Annie
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juliecinci
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Here's a quick idea. My daughter *hated* the "what school?" question too. She started telling people that she's an "autodidact" (self-taught). The fact that they always have to ask what that is, is a bonus since it puts her in the position of being smart.
Julie
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annie
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juliecinci wrote:
Here's a quick idea. My daughter *hated* the "what school?" question too. She started telling people that she's an "autodidact" (self-taught). The fact that they always have to ask what that is, is a bonus since it puts her in the position of being smart.
Julie |
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Julie,
My daughter and I laughed when we read this! Very clever.
All of this has prompted me to think.
I am considering taking a course in Assertiveness training. (Either myself or my daughter.) I think this may help with her peers.
Has anyone ever done such a thing? How did it work out?
Did it help?
Assertiveness not agressivness. If she felt more assertive she would have more self esteem.
Thanks everyone,
Annie
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4Real Forums : High School Years and Beyond
Topic: 14yo doesn't like school
