| Author | |
doris
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1103
|
| Posted: Nov 17 2006 at 7:31am | IP Logged
|
 |
|
Hello all
Here's a big question for your Friday.
I thought today's Gospel reading was from Luke 17 (26-37). From the web, it looks like I got it wrong -- should be Matthew 25. Anyway, similar subject: sheep and goats as opposed to one being taken and another left.
So my question is, why do we never hear about this in sermons, or anywhere? What are we to make of it? It's as if it's an embarrassing secret that we're not supposed to talk about.
I'm not very well versed in theology so would welcome any insights, or pointers for further reading. Incidentally, I come from an evangelical background where people would actually pray for their 'relatives and friends who are going to Hell'!
I'm not talking about judging others, because that's for God. But I am talking about that big Protestant question, 'How do I know I'm going to be saved?' ie 'How do I know that I'm going to be one of the sheep and not the goats?'
Sorry, this is rather waffly and unclear. That's because my thinking is, too.
Elizabeth
__________________
Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Martha
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2291
|
| Posted: Nov 17 2006 at 8:23am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I have no idea and often wonder the same thing.
The idea is to encourage good behavior with heaven vs discouraging bad behavior with hell. To love for love's own sake.
To detest our sins "because of Your just punishment, but MOST of all because they offend You, my God"
All of which I agree with, of course, but they go together. Too many seem to take the grace of God for granted and forget about hell altogether. I don't want fire and brimstone alone, but I think it could be a mistake to have only "happy, happy, joy, joy" too. The ideal would be a homily with both, preferably before the baby starts to get restless and the kid learning to tell time starts looking at his watch.
Do I want my children to obey me simply out of love? Of course! But if they don't, they must understand that there are consequences.
So I agree with you.
btw and completely OT -
thank you for using the word "waffly". To "waffle" was a spelling word my son had to look up yesterday and we had a huge argument because he said only dead people talked that way and he didn't want to look it up or write it in a sentence and I couldn't make him. So the first thing I did after reading your post was to call him over and say "HA! See! Why do you ever bother to doubt your loving mama?" We can laugh about it now, but it sure wasn't funny yesterday. 
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Patty LeVasseur
Forum Pro
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Location: Ohio
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 238
|
| Posted: Nov 17 2006 at 8:33am | IP Logged
|
|
|
This is the reflection for the reading for today although it is for Luke 17. I don't know how you know you are one of the sheep, I think you just have to behave like a "sheep" (fruits of the spirit), trust in the shepherd (for Catholics this would include frequenting the sacraments), and not go off and do your own thing (like a goat).
"They ate and drank, they took husbands and wives, right up to the day Noah entered the ark – and when the flood came, it destroyed them all." –Luke 17:27
Would you have been playing shuffleboard on the Titanic as it sank? Will you be watching a soap opera when the world ends? Will you be buying an insurance policy when Jesus returns?
Many will be doing meaningless things when the end comes. "It will be like that on the day the Son of Man is revealed" (Lk 17:30). Will you be in touch with the final reality or planning for things that will never exist?
No one knows the day or the hour (Mt 25:13), but God will prepare us if we let Him. "Look out that you yourselves do not lose what you have worked for; you must receive your reward in full" (2 Jn 8). At the very end, many false teachers will cause a mass apostasy (2 Thes 2:3). "Therefore God is sending upon them a perverse spirit which leads them to give credence to falsehood, so that all who have not believed the truth but have delighted in evildoing will be condemned" (2 Thes 2:11-12).
Hold on to the truth; be always ready for His coming. Look "for the coming of the day of God and [try] to hasten it!" (2 Pt 3:12) Lead others to Christ up to the last moment. "Pray constantly for the strength to escape whatever is in prospect, and to stand secure before the Son of Man" (Lk 21:36).
__________________
Patty
mom to four blessings
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
kjohnson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 669
|
| Posted: Nov 17 2006 at 9:34am | IP Logged
|
|
|
doris wrote:
| I come from an evangelical background where people would actually pray for their 'relatives and friends who are going to Hell'! Elizabeth |
|
|
It's much easier for an evangelical Protestant to pray such a direct prayer; that is, to pray for someone who they "know" is going to Hell. That's all part of the flawed Protestant system. The idea that saying a certain prayer at a particular moment and asking Jesus into your heart assures your salvation for eternity. It's just bad theology. But in that system, if you know that your loved one hasn't "accepted Jesus" then you can assume that they are going to hell. You won't find a Church Father with that understanding as you won't find anything like that in Catholic doctrine (the two of which are inseperable).
Elizabeth[/QUOTE] I'm not talking about judging others, because that's for God. But I am talking about that big Protestant question, 'How do I know I'm going to be saved?' ie 'How do I know that I'm going to be one of the sheep and not the goats?' Elizabeth[/QUOTE]
You can't know that you are saved. Salvation is a process and God never takes away our free will. We are always left the option to reject Him at any moment. We know that if we are faithful, God is faithful. But we also know that God will not force Himself on anyone (authentic love implies freedom), and that leaves the possibility of our falling away.
In the heterodox Protestant system one is saved and one's sins are covered. As Luther said, we are "snow covered dung heaps." Because of Jesus' sacrifice, when God looks at someone who is "saved" He no longer sees the filthy contagion of the soul, but His Son, Jesus. This couldn't be farther from the Catholic teaching. God is not a cruel judge who could be fooled into not seeing the essence of a soul He created. Salvation is not a penal system.
It's the difference between a legal system and a family dynamic. God is not an angry judge who ordered Jesus' death because someone had to pay. God is a merciful and loving Father who took on human flesh so that He could taste death for us and fill it with Life. And salvation is not about accepting a settlement offered in court, but about being purified and transformed. That's why Protestant don't believe in Purgatory. In the Protestant system, Purgatory is really a disgusting concept. If God is supposedly looking upon Jesus and not us when He judges us, why would He need to "punish us more." Wasn't requiring His own Son to die enough? But that's not how it works. Purgatory is the most merciful gesture that a Father could offer His child. Not only did He take on death so that our own death would be a passage to eternal life, but He doesn't require perfection at the moment of judgement. He judges the heart and knows our intentions and even if we we haven't reached perfection at the moment of our death, He embraces us if we have died in His friendship (a state of grace).
I think the real problem in understanding the difference between the Protestant and Catholic doctrines on salvation are the 2 (very different)images of what Hell really is. In the Catholic doctrine, Hell is not a place where God sends those who would not obey Him or accept Him as their personal Lord and Savior. Hell is being embraced by God at death and in eternity when the soul has decided to refuse Him. Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are all the same place. God is Existence Itself (I AM), no one can exist outside of Him and He is everywhere present and fills all things. But God, as St. Paul wrote, is a consumming fire. Of the choirs of angels, the ones closest to His Throne are called the Seraphim, which literally means "Burning Ones." The closer you get to God, the "hotter" it gets. His love burns. For someone in a state of mortal sin, who has misused his free will and has rejected Him, the embrace of God at death is painful beyond imagination. The full knowledge that union (which we were created for) will never be fulfilled is the worst hell one could imagine. For those who have died in God's grace, but are not yet perfect, God's embrace at death is purifing. The pain in Purgatory consists of our seeing the joy of union with Him, but it not yet fulfilled. (A child on Chrismas Eve, but in cosmic proportions.) For those saints who die in a state of perfection, the fiery embrace is...Paradise.
St. Catherine of Genoa, who the Church refers to as the "Apostle of Purgatory," likened it to a starving person who sees a piece of bread. It's the difference between that person knowing that he can never taste of it, while having it dangling in front of him for eternity. He will spend eternity starving and looking upon the Bread of Life. Or the person knowing that he can eat it, but must wait for a while (torturous joy). Or the person receiving it and feasting upon it. Total fulfillment.
But anyway...regarding evangelicals who pray for those who are going to hell. We Catholics pray for the dead, but leave the details to the grace and mercy of a God has shown us that he would do ANYTHING to save us. 
And how do you know you are going to be saved? We know God will never take back what He has promised to us. If we live in His friendship, He will fulfill His promise to us. The only one to fear is ourself. And if we spend time contemplating that we are our own worst enemy (that is, our weak wills), then that self realization will help us along the path of purification. But isn't that why we fast? To strengthen the will that so threatens our very salvation?
OK, I'm not proofing this, because I've ignored my children for too long. So I hope it makes sense. 
__________________
In Christ,
Katherine
Wife to Doug and Mother of 6
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Martha
Forum All-Star
Joined: Aug 25 2005
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2291
|
| Posted: Nov 17 2006 at 11:08am | IP Logged
|
|
|
[Heaven, Hell and Purgatory are all the same place. God is Existence Itself (I AM), no one can exist outside of Him and He is everywhere present and fills all things.]
umm, I don't think so... They most certainly are not he same place. My catechism does not say this. (1033) And it references areas in the bible that don't agree with it either. Even my catholic dictionary doesn't agree with this view.
Hell is separation from God for all eternity without hope of reunion.
Jesus spoke of unquenchable fires reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and repent and be converted. The cursed will "depart" from Him. The catechism says the church affirms this belief that those who die in a state of mortal sin will desend to hell where they will suffer punishments and eternal fires.
We do not know who is going to hell. Only God knows that. The purpose of praying for these people is not to get them out of hell after they die. It is to convert their soul so they don't go there in the first place. I know many Catholics that pray for those who are putting their souls in jeopardy of hell. The Fatima Prayer and the Hail Mary come to mind.
__________________
Martha
mama to 7 boys & 4 girls
Yes, they're all ours!
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
kjohnson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 669
|
| Posted: Nov 17 2006 at 11:20am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Martha, you misunderstood what I meant and I know that if were chatting as friends in the same room and not over an impersonal computer, you would have know that I didn't mean that in this way.
What I meant is that there is no place where God is not. Nothing can be in existence without participating in Being. This is directly from St. Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica. I certainly didn't mean that Heaven and Hell are indistinguishable. But you answer the dilema with your quote. "Hell is separation from God for all eternity without hope of reunion." Separation as in the mystical theology of St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila would be lack of union (which is the word used at the end of this phrase). Hell is lack of union with God.
All I meant that it is not a separate geographical location...as in Heaven's up in the sky and hell is underground.
The Catechism actually states that hell is the "state of definitive self exclusion from communion with God." We're talking about lack of commuion and union and what I was so poorly trying to impress in my last post was that we fall short when we are talking about eternity when we think of them as separate places. (Time and place are only are frail human attempts of describing something that we cannot fully comprehend in this life...these words fail us when discussing these things.) "Place" doesn't work in eternity because "place" implies the created world...not because heaven and hell are equivalent, but because we're talking about eternity where there is no time and place.
But please don't think I was trying to say that the damned are among us in communion in eternity. The metaphysical reality I was speaking of was that being embraced by Pure Love in a state of mortal sin is hell.
As Scott Hahn has often said, eternity is our experience with God. Since God is a consumming fire, his Presence is cold to those who die in mortal sin. The heat purifies those who die in a state of grace and for the purified soul the heat is ecstacy.
I think I should just stick to posts about Advent crafts and Thanksgiving Trees. LOL!
__________________
In Christ,
Katherine
Wife to Doug and Mother of 6
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
kjohnson
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 26 2006
Location: N/A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 669
|
| Posted: Nov 17 2006 at 11:24am | IP Logged
|
|
|
Oh, and I also didn't mean to imply that we Catholics don't pray for those who are leading immoral lives in hope for their conversion. I just meant that we don't claim that we know who is and who is not going to hell.
__________________
In Christ,
Katherine
Wife to Doug and Mother of 6
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
lapazfarm
Forum All-Star
Joined: July 21 2005
Location: Alaska
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6082
|
| Posted: Nov 17 2006 at 12:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
kjohnson wrote:
I think I should just stick to posts about Advent crafts and Thanksgiving Trees. LOL!
|
|
|
I hope not. I really enjoyed reading your responses.
__________________
Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
LaPaz Home Learning
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
jdostalik
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 15 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2935
|
| Posted: Nov 17 2006 at 4:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
lapazfarm wrote:
kjohnson wrote:
I think I should just stick to posts about Advent crafts and Thanksgiving Trees. LOL!
|
|
|
I hope not. I really enjoyed reading your responses. |
|
|
I did, too. You have to use your college degree sometime!
__________________
God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
doris
Forum All-Star
Joined: April 24 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1103
|
| Posted: Nov 20 2006 at 4:54pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thanks for all these interesting and thought-provoking replies. I've been Catholic for 11 years now but it's amazing how deep-rooted certain misconceptions can be.
And Martha -- glad to oblige on those spelling words! Even if it does mean that I talk like a dead person
__________________
Home educating in London, UK with dd (2000) ds (2002), dd (2004), ds (2008) and dd (2011).
Frabjous Days
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
ALmom
Forum All-Star
Joined: May 18 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3299
|
| Posted: Nov 20 2006 at 8:33pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Going back to the original question - why don't we hear about this in sermons, etc. We just did this Sunday at our parish and though it might not have been called brimstone and fire, there certainly was a reminder that Hell is real. We have been very blessed by these priests - but we have also had what we sometimes refer to as the endless "feel good" homilies.
Is part of the problem a general societal trend to ignore personal responsibility - it is always someone else's fault (instead of through my own fault, through my own fault, through my most grieveous fault). We have avoided the word sin, to the point that Pope John Paul II reminded us on a number of occassions that our society had lost a sense of sin. Well, if there is no sin, then there isn't much point in talking about hell, right? But sin is real and so is hell. I think there has been some fear, some neglect of presenting the full message, etc. at times but if we are attentive, we are reminded of the full truth all the time - the daily act of contrition, the prayers of contrition at Mass, the passages from Scripture themselves. "Not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven."
I can become discouraged when I see neglect around me - but then I am reminded about how much easier it is for me to see someone else's neglect, fault, etc. rather than my own. I try to remember the priests in prayer and give the same slack that I hope our children will one day give me when they look back at my parenting and know that we weren't always on top of everything we should have been, I lost my temper, I avoided hard confrontations for a time, until figuring out that I had to do something, etc. When I get discouraged or confused by what is or is not being done in my own local area of the church, I find it helpful to make a comparison to family life and it helps me.
Janet
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: fire and brimstone
