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Jenn Sal
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My daughter and I were looking at photos of the actual image of Our Lady of Guadalupe on-line. Does She have a crown? The top of Her head seems to be in the frame. But, we noticed that some artists give Her a crown.
Also, I'm embarressed to say that I heard for the first time, last year, that Mary appears pregnant. Is this true? If so, could someone give me a link with information? I've searched and can't find anything. I have seen that She is the patroness for the unborn.
Thank you!
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MaryM
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Jenn,
Yes, she appears pregnant. No, she does not have a crown.
Here is something I wrote for the feast last year, in a post for "O Night Divine."
Her feast day falls just a few days after the feast of the Immaculate Conception. Interestingly, the apparition of Mary to Juan Diego is one of the first apparitions of Virgin Mary as the Immaculate Conception. In the image she is pregnant - encinta in Spanish, meaning "with a ribbon around her waist" which is the sign of pregnancy in the old Spanish world. It is providential that the feast of the Immaculate Conception and the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe fall in Advent. It gives us an opportunity to focus on Mary, who has been called the bridge between the Old Testament and the New Testament - between expectation and fulfillment.
These two sites have very nice explanations of the symbolism found in the image - including the fact that she was pregnant.
Our Lady of Guadalupe.org
EWTN
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Matilda
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I had never read some of that before although I had read that the image was more like a photograph than a painting. The book (title eludes me) also said that in studying her features, she has all of the characteristics of a young Jewish woman and that this could be considered as close to a picture of the Holy Virgin of Nazareth as we have ever received.
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Jenn Sal
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Mary,
Thank you so much. This is exactly what I was looking for. I love what you wrote, too. Now my family can appriciate this feast day in a more meaningful way!
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Waverley
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Wow, I agree with Jennifer - thanks Mary. Once again, I feel my faith life has deepened as a result of contact with you lovely ladies.
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aussieannie
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Jennifer, Mary is completely right in saying there is no crown on her head - no PAINTED crown on her head - but there IS a crown there!  
This 'crown' is explained beautifully in A Handbook on Guadalupe but here also is a pdf file to look at. (The pdf file has drawings and so does the handbook.)
This just proves the even more how stupendously miraculous, the tilma is - made by the hands of Our Lady herself.
I'll give a 'laymans' explaination...you see all the painted stars on Our Lady's tilma? They fit perfectly with the constellation of the stars in the sky at that precise moment and date of the apparition and the precise location. Distinct constellations can be pointed out on Our Lady's dress itself, where they can be seen and if you were to continue to fill in the rest of the night time stars of that moment you would have across Our Lady's forehead the Corona Borealis - a crown! Here is a little quote from the pdf file:
"At the top is the Corona Borealis (the Borean Crown), which would appear on the head of Our Lady, appropriately signifying her royalty as the queen of heaven (Ap 12:1). Below the crown is Virgo, near Our Lady’s heart, showing her purity and virginity (Lk 1:35). Leo the lion, identifying with Christ as the Lion of the tribe of Judah (Ap 5:5), is near her abdomen, representing her virgin conception of the Christ child. Our Lady is wearing a black band, which is the symbol of pregnancy in Indian culture. Regulus, meaning royalty, is Leo’s brightest star and symbolizes Christ’s kingship (Ap 12:5). Coma Berenices is the tuft of Leo’s tail. Near the bottom is Gemini, the twins, placed near her two legs and symbolize the birth of Christ (Gn 49:10)."
Is all this AWESOME or WHAT???
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doris
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Great thread! I just love all the details of symbolism. Absolutely fascinating and literally out of this world.
I do have one question though.
MaryM wrote:
Her feast day falls just a few days after the feast of the Immaculate Conception. Interestingly, the apparition of Mary to Juan Diego is one of the first apparitions of Virgin Mary as the Immaculate Conception. In the image she is pregnant - encinta in Spanish, meaning "with a ribbon around her waist" which is the sign of pregnancy in the old Spanish world. .
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Doesn't the Immaculate Conception refer to the conception of Our Lady herself? Therefore the fact that she is pregnant in this image hasn't got anything to do with the Immaculate Conception. Or has this convert-with-pregnancy-brain got things wrong??
(Mary, I also posted this question on O Night Divine so please feel free to ignore that!)
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MaryM
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doris wrote:
| Doesn't the Immaculate Conception refer to the conception of Our Lady herself? Therefore the fact that she is pregnant in this image hasn't got anything to do with the Immaculate Conception. |
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You are completely correct that the Immacualte Conception refers to Mary's state of grace, being conceived without sin so that she was a pure vessel to carry our Lord. I'm glad you asked because when I reread the statement in light of your question I can see that there could be confusion. Those two statemtents (sentences) are meant to be read as separate thoughts and not that the image is reflective of IC because she is pregant. One statement is that the image of OLOG is generally considered to be a representation of her as the Immaculate Conception because of all the symbolism that is reflective of her descriptions in Genesis 3 and Revelation 12 (clothed with the Sun and with the moon at her feet, on her head a crown of twelve stars, pregnant with child, crush the serpent) which I should have expanded on there but didn't. That she is pregnant is one peice of the picture of the "woman of Revelation" but here was meant to show that in her apparition as OLOG the pregant state is reflective of the fulfillment - she is the pure and stainless vessel carrying the carrying the Christ Child whose birth we celebrate at Christmas.
Does that help? I think I need to rewrite that paragraph slightly and have Mary Ellen change it at the 'O Night Divine" blog so as to avoid confusion which could arise.
And I'm glad you pointed out the "natural" crown of stars, Anne. I didn't have much time when I first posted and knew it was included in the links about symbolism, so didn't go into that since I knew Jenn was referring to the depictions of OLOG where a tiara/royal looking crown has been added.
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MacBeth
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aussieannie wrote:
you see all the painted stars on Our Lady's tilma? They fit perfectly with the constellation of the stars in the sky at that precise moment and date of the apparition and the precise location. Distinct constellations can be pointed out on Our Lady's dress itself, ...
Is all this AWESOME or WHAT??? |
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Sort of. It is my understanding (see Insight Scoop that the stars (and the moon and angel) were added by a Spanish artist shortly after the miraculous image appeared, and, unlike the actual image, are disintegrating. Which is even more awesome .
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Matilda
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I had heard that too only about the stars. It was understandable that as old as this image is, it wouldn't have been cared for in the way that it is today. Back then, they probably would have thought they were honoring the Blessed Virgin by decorating her image.
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aussieannie
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Yes, you are right there MacBeth, but I do understand that is still how the sky was on that day and that is how the stars would have rested upon her image?
Upon reading the pdf file linked above the findings in general connected to the constellation layout are quite incredible and have even more astounding, spiritual findings as well which makes pure 'forgery' sound a bit more far fetched.
So I wonder if they are in fact, 'touch ups' that may have added over possibly lighter miraculous markings made by Our Lady? Have these man-made markings been scraped back enough to reveal this at all? It is an interesting question..I'd love to know.
It's a crass thought, that someone would add completely or try to make anything already there to make stand out further (embellish, so as to say) but as you have pointed out, it certainly now confirms to us in this day, that there is a definate difference between what is 'man-made' and now deteriorating and what is miraculous and unexplainable in it's application and perfect longevity..
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MacBeth
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Either way...it's very interesting. Both good astronomy and miracles outlasting things made by man...wonderful!
Can't....hold...my....connection....Keep....logging...out. 
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aussieannie
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MacBeth wrote:
| Can't....hold...my....connection....Keep....logging...out. |
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It's 2am in the morning down here and my pregnancy insomnia is waning and my eyes can relate to your computer problem, so it's time to 'hit the sack'!
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Jenn Sal
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I'm actually a little sad that some of the images were added.  I have to hold on to the truth of the miricle, that Our Lady's image is the miricle! 
I really appreciate discussion.
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Waverley
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Doris, thanks for asking the question about the IC and Mary thanks for that great answer. I too was a little confused when I first read it but your explanation Mary is very clear.
Waverley
P.S. - What or where is O Night Divine?
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MaryM
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Waverley wrote:
| P.S. - What or where is O Night Divine? |
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O Night Divine is Mary Ellen Barrett's Christmas blog. She often features guest authors on various subjects related to the Christmas and Advent seasons. Celebrating Our Lady of Guadalupe's Feast Day was my contribution to the blog last year.
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aussieannie
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I was doing a bit more reading today on the net in preparation for blogging about the mantle of Our Lady of Guadalupe and found a statement (I will quote it further down) on a site that says the talk of the tilma being tampered with or painted over as incorrect.
Like MacBeth and probably many others, I must say that I definately thought that tilma had been tampered with in some ways - so I thought I'd share this statement that argues against this point. What a shame that there are not 'definative' statements released by those who are the direct guardians of the tilma...or maybe there is?
"Don Valeriano was a governor of Mexico City, a brilliant and erudite man of letters and theology, and a personal friend of Juan Diego, Juan Bernardino, and Bishop Zumarraga. He authored the oldest account of the apparitions of 1531 called by its first two Aztec words the Nican Mopohua. It is given the greatest credibility of all narrations among Guadalupan historians. This record, written between 1540 and 1545, was believed to have been dictated by Juan Diego, and contains a most vivid and accurate description of the Holy Tilma.
"Her veil or mantle, on the outer surface, is a celestial blue: it sets well on her hand, but fully reveals her face; reaching down to her feet, it fits a little more closely midway; the wide border is of gold; and gold stars everywhere, forty-six in all."
He further adds, "The beautiful image, and all the rest, is supported by an angel, who apparently terminates at the waist; none of its lower portion can be seen, being lost in the clouds. The extreme lower part of the tunic and mantle of the Lady of Heaven extend well below her feet and are held by the hands of the angel, whose robe is reddish vermilion in color, with a golden collar, and his extended wings display rich long-feathered plumage of green and other colors. She is borne aloft by the hands of the angel, who seems quite happy to thus carry the Queen of Heaven."
From what I can read, this account goes against the time frame of those who believe there were add-ons, as it was suppose to have been done at a much later date...hmmm, food for thought...
Sorry girls, if I have sort of changed the direction of the discussion, maybe I should start another thread?
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Jenn Sal
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I started this thread and love where it has gone. The only reason why maybe a new thread should start is to have a more direct post title.
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MaryM
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We can change the post title to something more generic like:
Our Lady of Guadalupe Image
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msclavel
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I have loved this thread too as I have a special devotion to her, I share my birthday with the feast.
What always shines through for me is how tender and nurturing Our Lady is in regards to this apparition. Her words to Juan Diego make me cry every time I read them because no matter how I'm feeling, I know she is calling me to fly into her arms and be safe with my Mother.
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Topic: Our Lady of Guadalupe Crown?
