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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 6:46am | IP Logged
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Dh was brought up in a Baptist home. He did convert before we were married and does attend Mass with us. But he does go back to his Baptist roots/teachings a lot. I have had to do a lot of learning.
My children are saying a decade of the rosary at night and teaching dh. He insists the prayer isn't complete without the part, "for thine is the kingdom, the power and the glory. Amen." "Look in Luke," He says. I know we do say it at mass. And that appeased him years ago.
Could you all help me explain, understand, etc. Why isn't that phrase included in the rosary?
Thanks,
Anne
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Helen
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Hi Anne,
Here's another thread with some links to get you started:for Thine is the kingdom
I believe I was taught in class that the phrase "for thine is the kingdom" is considered a "gloss" by biblical scholars. (It was added by a scribe.) But, it became part of our liturgical tradition and so it remains in the Mass. I hope my memory is serving me correctly.
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vmalott
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Did you look in Luke in a Catholic Bible? Here is what I found in the New American Bible online at the US Bishops' website:
"He said to them, "When you pray, say: Father, hallowed be your name, your kingdom come. Give us each day our daily bread and forgive us our sins for we ourselves forgive everyone in debt to us, and do not subject us to the final test." (Luke 11:2-4) There is nothing there following with "for thine is the kingdom."
There is a similar passage in
Matthew 6:9-13 that is most like what we pray during the Mass, but still there is not the phrase above.
FWIW, I looked online at some Protestant versions (King James, ESV, NIRV) at BibleGateway and didn't come across the phrase either. However, in this comparison, the author does include the phrase, citing the KJV version of Matthew in brackets, but states that this was not in the original Greek text of Matthew.
This Wikipedia entry explains how this phrase, known as the Doxology, originated (not in the Bible), and that it was not added to the Latin Rite until the Mass of Paul VI was established (our current "Novus Ordo") around 1970, following the Second Vatican Council.
It may be that the Doxology at the end of the Lord's Prayer was used as a part of congregational worship in the early Church, but may have fallen out of practice by the time of the Middle Ages (I'm just speculating). The Rosary, which developed sometime in the late Middle Ages is primarily a private prayer. So that may be the reason why the doxology is not prayed at the end of the Lord's Prayer during the Rosary.
Interesting stuff.
Valerie
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mom2mpr
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Ahhhhh...dh is a KJV bible man...that is the only one that has that thrown in at the end. It is interesting. Now I need to understand how to explain it is not in Matthew or Luke in other bibles--why only KJV? I need the "facts" that it wasn't in the original greek text of Matthew. How can someone change the bible?
And which is the bible we as Catholics are to use?
This is hard as I am not a bible literate woman--just great faith... 
Thanks ladies and if anyone else has more info it would be great. The other thread had a link I was interested in but it didn't work.
Anne
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mom2mpr
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| Posted: Nov 19 2007 at 4:10pm | IP Logged
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Valerie,
I checked out Wikipedia and boy, that helps me a lot. Thanks for taking the time to put this info together. I have so much to learn--and teach
Anne
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MaryM
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| Posted: Nov 21 2007 at 4:24pm | IP Logged
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I found this answer to be very informative and may be of interest to you as well.
Our Father
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allegiance_mom
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The KJV is not licit for Catholics to use. The Protestants, at the reformation, recodified the Bible and left out several books (ie Maccabees). The King James it is named for was James I, son of Mary Queen of Scots. He succeeded Elizabeth I.
The authorized Catholic Bible versions (in English) are the Douay-Rheims, the Jerusalem, the Revised Standard Version CATHOLIC edition (there is also a Protestant RSV) and the New American Bible. Someone should have clued your dh in when he converted. You might want to refer him to the
Bible Christian Society, a Catholic Bible site run by an EWTN contributor.
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JennGM
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allegiance_mom wrote:
The KJV is not licit for Catholics to use. The Protestants, at the reformation, recodified the Bible and left out several books (ie Maccabees). The King James it is named for was James I, son of Mary Queen of Scots. He succeeded Elizabeth I.
The authorized Catholic Bible versions (in English) are the Douay-Rheims, the Jerusalem, the Revised Standard Version CATHOLIC edition (there is also a Protestant RSV) and the New American Bible. Someone should have clued your dh in when he converted. You might want to refer him to the
Bible Christian Society, a Catholic Bible site run by an EWTN contributor. |
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Just a minor clarification. The KJV is not an official translation of the Catholic Church, and it's not allowed for use in Catholic Liturgy. Of course anyone can read it for private use. It is a beautiful translation, we would just have to add the apocropha (missing books) back into the Bible to make it complete.
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MaryM
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And I find this article written by Jimmy Akin of Catholic Answers to be very helpful in looking at the various Bible translations and having an understanding of when/how different ones might be used by individuals in reading and understanding scripture.
Bible Translations Guide
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Mary M. in Denver
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Lords Prayer help
