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kristinannie
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| Posted: Feb 19 2014 at 4:38pm | IP Logged
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I had planned to start dictation in third grade, but I am thinking that I might push it back until fourth grade. My son does really well with copywork and he is still really working on cursive writing. He is an excellent reader. He learned to read so quickly and easily that I started reviewing spelling rules and phonics this year. He breezed through them so quickly that he didn't really internalize them. I'd love to hear when you start dictation and how you determine that a child is ready.
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: Feb 19 2014 at 6:08pm | IP Logged
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Around age 10 or 4th grade.
With my third daughter I started earlier b/c she had no problem with writing mechanics, and I could tell spelling came easily to her, so it wasn't going to be a source of frustration for her.
Especially with boys....I think "setting them up for success" is very important. Better to start later than too early.
You could start with extremely simple 3-4 word sentences and see how he does.
Also, consider......DICTATION serves so many purposes. It's not "just a spelling exercise." It's creating that habit of attention, attention to detail, doing something diligently a certain number of times per week, following directions, working independently, focusing, listening, caring about your work.
If you think your child could BENEFIT or NEEDS these things and they are mature enough to handle it, then it may be good to start a bit earlier.
But, if you think they aren't ready for "advancing in those above-listed-things" then maybe continuing on with copywork to achieve those things (even if it IS as a simpler or more basic level) will serve you better.
Clear as mud, right?  
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Suzanne in ID
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SeaStar
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| Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 11:39am | IP Logged
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My ds was in a panic about not being able to spell- it really bothered him.
So we started using the Simply Spelling book from Simply Charlotte Mason when he was 9 and in the second half of third grade.
We had tried the CHC spellers, but he just wasn't happy with those- didn't like the format. The SCM speller has been a good fit for him. It starts with very simple sentences and builds slowly. Now he is in 5th, and we sometimes still divide a lesson in half and do it over two weeks.
But the key here is that we do it faithfully, and his spelling has improved so much- NOT PERFECT by any means, but much better. And he is happy with his progress. 
When my dd turned 9, I started her in the same book. I probably could have waited a year with her, but she enjoys writing, and I spend a lot of time spelling out words for her  . She likes knowing them on her own- but I do have to go very slowly with her.
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 3:17pm | IP Logged
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Like Suzanne, we start around age 10 or 4th grade. I have a 9 year old, 4th grade boy this year, and we have not yet started - he's not ready yet. I've noticed that my two boys and their readiness for this has been about a year behind my daughter's readiness.
Charlotte Mason writes that children as young as 8 or 9 were writing paragraphs through dictation. I do think this is quite possible with a young lady of this age. I also believe that young boys need careful consideration before moving toward this skill - especially important is the need to consider motor skills development, habit development, maturity, and copywork skill.
Because dictation encompasses so many skills and offers so many benefits, determining readiness isn't as straightforward as >> can hold a pencil and listen and write <<.
This is directly from CM, Vol 1, p. 242, and gives some hints about readiness:
Quote:
A child of eight or nine prepares a paragraph, older children a page, or two or three pages. The child prepares by himself, by looking at the word he is not sure of, and then seeing it with his eyes shut. Before he begins, the teacher asks what words he thinks will need his attention. He generally knows, but the teacher may point out any word likely to be a cause of stumbling. He lets his teacher know when he is ready. The teacher asks if there are any words he is not sure of. These she puts, one by one, on the blackboard, letting the child look till he has a picture, and then rubbing the word out. If anyone is still doubtful he should be called to put the word he is not sure of on the board, the teacher watching to rub out the word when a wrong letter begins to appear, and again helping the child to get a mental picture. Then the teacher gives out the dictation, clause by clause, each clause repeated once. She dictates with a view to the pointing, which the children are expected to put in as they write; but they must not be told 'comma,' 'semicolon,' etc. After the sort of preparation I have described, which takes ten minutes or less, there is rarely an error in spelling. If there be, it is well worth while for the teacher to be on the watch with slips of stamp-paper to put over the wrong word, that its image may be erased as far as possible. At the end of the lesson, the child should again study the wrong word in his book until he says he is sure of, and should write it correctly on the stamp-paper.
A lesson of this kind secures the hearty co-operation of children, who feel they take their due part in it; and it also prepares them for the second condition of good spelling, which isÐÐmuch reading combined with the habit of imaging the words as they are read. |
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So, based on that, here are a few considerations::
** Copywork is mastered - ie. the ability to write with ease - knows letters and can write without looking at a reference card to see how a letter is formed. This includes cursive. (Boys often take longer to master copywork than girls. Just different in terms of motor skill development - they do catch up of course, but the *skill* of writing should be mastered before beginning dictation, so if the formation of letters isn't second nature, it's better to wait.)
** The habit of attention is formed and the child can bring the habit of attention to the lesson.
** The child can bring enough maturity that there is a willingness to "prepare himself" for the lesson. I look for the ability to do this - is my child ready to be trained in this direction. This is a habit. But if my child wouldn't be able to bring this level of willingness or ability to the lesson, I wait to begin dictation lessons. The idea is that I direct the studied dictation for some time while the habit of studying is built. The goal is, as always, a self educator - a child that will take their dictation selection, study it, prepare himself, and be ready for you/teacher to read the dictation selection aloud.
** This part of CM's explanation in particular possibly gives the best indicator for readiness:
Quote:
| A lesson of this kind secures the hearty co-operation of children, who feel they take their due part in it |
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---can the child's co-operation be secured? Will he work with you readily? Follow directions? Be attentive? Give best effort?
---will the child be able to give his part? Read and understand, identify challenging words, visualize challenging words, listen attentively as a dictation is read aloud (only once!!! NEVER repeat words/clauses as you read a dictation selection for the child to write!)
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Hope this is a help as you consider your son's readiness!
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Jen Mackintosh
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Mackfam
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| Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 3:21pm | IP Logged
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SeaStar wrote:
we started using the Simply Spelling book from Simply Charlotte Mason
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Melinda,
Do you mean the Spelling Wisdom series from Simply Charlotte Mason?
We, too, use the Spelling Wisdom books. I've been through the whole series at this point - and really enjoy the selections as well as the index in the books.
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Jen Mackintosh
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SeaStar
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| Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 4:15pm | IP Logged
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LOL-
Yes, I meant Spelling Wisdom. I knew that SImply Spelling wasn't right, but the site is/was down for maintenance today, so I couldn't check that when I had two minutes to post
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Melinda, mom to ds ('02) and dd ('04)
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kristinannie
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| Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 4:46pm | IP Logged
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Thank you so much for your replies. I think my son is ready in many of the ways that Jen mentioned, but he is still learning his cursive. We just started working on it this year and he is going through very slowly (which, of course, is fine with me because he does do his best work). He is very good at copywork in manuscript and is very careful when he copies in English and Latin. However, I agree that it would be best to wait until he masters cursive.
Plus, he is so much of a perfectionist that I can see him getting very upset if he struggled with dictation. We are working on this and he has vastly improved in this area! There are no longer tears when he misses a math problem!
He has started trying to write on his own though and misspelling words. This is the main reason that I wanted to start some more specific spelling instruction. He no longer asks me how to spell things a lot of the time and tries to spell them himself (outside of school time). During school, he always asks about spelling if he has a question or copies the word. Can anyone give me any hints on this? Is that a sign of readiness that would trump the cursive issue or is that something I could handle a different way?
Thanks again for all of your help. I wasn't educated this way and it is always hardest with the first child!!!
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SeaStar
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| Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 4:54pm | IP Logged
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For my ds, it was causing him Great Grief to feel that he was behind in spelling. Why? Who knows... he certainly does not seem to feel any need to get ahead in math
Because it was upsetting him so much, I went ahead and started dictation.
I also bought him a little electronic pocket spell checker, which he uses on and off.
If your son wants to push ahead and learn more spelling, I would say go ahead. If he is not all that worried about it, and you feel it's best to wait, I would wait.
About the cursive... for some reason cursive writing has always fascinated my ds, and he was crying to learn it as soon as he could print. So by the time our spelling crisis hit, he was already writing fairly well in cursive.
I wish he would be so passionate about fractions. 
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Mackfam
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kristinannie wrote:
| He no longer asks me how to spell things a lot of the time and tries to spell them himself (outside of school time). During school, he always asks about spelling if he has a question or copies the word. Can anyone give me any hints on this? Is that a sign of readiness that would trump the cursive issue or is that something I could handle a different way? |
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That would concern me, too. Honestly, he sounds really close to being ready. There are two directions I'd probably consider here....
If you think the maturity is there and that he's ready to be attentive and co-operative, you could start with very short dictation lessons. Start very small and short and build on success. Just give yourself permission to work on studied dictations for 4 weeks, and then put it on your planner to re-evaluate after that point. When he turns in his dictation lesson to you, and without him seeing (so, do this very discreetly) make a few notes on the page and set it aside in your planner or notebook to review after 4 weeks. Make simple notes about challenges he had - did he constantly ask you to repeat? Is he having a hard time writing the selection even after studying? Is he paralyzed by perfectionist tendencies? Just jot some simple notes to help you when you re-evaluate in 4 weeks. And REQUIRE that dictation selections be written in print. Keep working on cursive but don't require dictation in cursive until he has mastered it. (Based on your descriptions, this is probably the direction I'd go. If I saw red flags of frustration or an inability to concentrate when I read the dictation, I'd just quietly back off and slide dictation off the schedule - very quietly!! - and wait and re-introduce in a month or two.)
OR --
If you're just not certain he's ready to proceed with dictations in terms of his ability to bring attention to the lesson and co-operate (although it sounds from your description like he might be ready), just pay attention to those words he's mis-spelling...and make sure they're included in his copywork for the week. I would probably include the word in several copywork selections, too. Just having him see the word in copywork will help his visual memory.
I think you're really on the right track here!! I'd give it a try and see how it goes! He's so close - my bet is that moving slowly he might take off with dictations! Oh - and do make note of the words he mis-spells outside of school time and include those in your upcoming dictation lessons!
I know this is crazy but I just dictation lessons!! I'd marry it if I could! Seriously, the simple dictation lesson has helped us overcome so much - non-natural spellers, and one a dyslexic! Both are fantastic spellers now!! And all we did was the simple, consistent dictation lesson year after year!!!!
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Jen Mackintosh
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kristinannie
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| Posted: Feb 20 2014 at 10:27pm | IP Logged
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Jen, can you just come up here and evaluate him?
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Mackfam
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kristinannie wrote:
| Jen, can you just come up here and evaluate him? |
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I think YOU are doing great! You ask great questions and you're a fantastic brainstorm-er!! And...we're all here to help...and we're just a quick post away! Let us know how things are going some time!
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Jen Mackintosh
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kristinannie
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| Posted: March 24 2014 at 5:50pm | IP Logged
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I just wanted to give an update! We started dictation today and my son was completely delighted. He said that for the first time, he felt like he was really learning how to spell a word. We are taking it very slowly and I am just coming up with my own easy sentences. He loved the whole process and I can't say enough wonderful things about it! Thanks so much for all of your encouragement!
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Mackfam
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| Posted: March 25 2014 at 7:29am | IP Logged
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That is fantastic!!!!
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Jen Mackintosh
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: March 27 2014 at 11:07am | IP Logged
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That's great! Have fun! Dictation is so amazing! Maybe you will be a "I'd-marry-dictation-too-if-I-could" kinda gal!
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Suzanne in ID
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kristinannie
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| Posted: April 02 2014 at 5:41pm | IP Logged
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For the record, after two weeks of narration, I already want to marry it! I cannot believe how effective it is!!!! Thanks again for your support.
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: When do you start dictation?
