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Alcat
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| Posted: Dec 09 2005 at 8:31am | IP Logged
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 Argggghhh! I'm doing it again- I've been very frustrated with my phonics program for awhile, it is an excellent program, my kids like it, but... it takes way too long! We're talking 45min for 1st grade So I shelved it for a bit and have been using Learning Language Arts Through Lit. (LLATL), and I feel it's just not enough (besides the layout of the program is driving me nuts).
A friend has loaned me her copy of The Writing Road to Reading with the Guide to creating the spelling notebook. I like what I have seen so far. It is logical, nonconsumable, and the lessons are blessedly SHORT  Then I saw that the Spell to Write and Read is taken directly from The WRR... but the cost! I'm not sure if I'm up to spending $100 on yet another phonics program (although this will carry us through highschool, hmmm). If WRR is worth it I can take the plunge and sell my other program to finance SWR.
What is your opinion? WRR is inexpensive but is a difficult text to navigate initially and you do it all yourself... SWR is done for you but the price...
Or just do 100 EZ lessons and move on with spelling workbooks... help
Thanks!
God Bless,
Alison (did I mention I LOVE curriculum  )
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ALmom
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| Posted: Dec 09 2005 at 10:08am | IP Logged
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Teaching Reading at Home by Wanda Kennedy Sanseri is a Companion to WRR and we used it to help us through WRR the first time. (We use WRR just for the spelling and have started at various levels with various dc) It also includes a diagnostic spelling scale for determining placement, sample reference charts(including blank reference charts that we copy for dc to use) and scripted teacher presentations. We don't necessarily follow the system precisely, but have found it fairly easy to follow WRR between the two books. You may find this a more inexpensive way to go (I don't know about SWR so I cannot say anything about that). TRH was about $15 - $20 when I bought it. It was published by Back Home Industries but I cannot remember where I ordered it.
If you are dedicated to following Spalding precisely, you may not like TRH as she made her own modifications without Spalding input - ones that I happened to agree with/made sense to me but wanted you to know that ahead of time.
We have really liked WRR for phonics/spelling especially for older dc whose earlier presentations left gaps. I will say we do not follow all the "rules" of not letting dc erase, etc. and we let dc use charts we have copied for marking words and spelling rules - but we do have them do all the marking with red etc. and ask the scripted questions. I have also modified the phonogram about the y at the end of a word (it always sounds ee in spoken language so I just changed it despite her insistence to the contrary) but I think that the latest editions have also made that modification.
Janet
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Alcat
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| Posted: Dec 09 2005 at 10:45am | IP Logged
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Thank you Janet. I didn't know about Teaching Reading at Home. Emmanual Books sells the recomended Starting a Spelling Notebook A "Nuts and Bolts" Guide to "The Writing Road to Reading" by Mari McAlister... I am looking at that right along with WRR.
How have you found TRH to be a help with WRR? Would you purchase both books or just one of them to begin with? Do you have your children make the phonogram cards, or did you make them?
I guess what has caught my attention with WRR, is that I can begin with teaching my dc to read- giving them that freedom to enjoy it before focusing so heavily on writing and spelling; or learing to read with the writing/spelling emphasis if it better suits the child...
Does this make any sense?
Alison
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Alcat
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| Posted: Dec 09 2005 at 1:32pm | IP Logged
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Hey Janet,
I did some digging and apperntly TRH is the old version of Spelling to Write and Read 
What Wanda Sanseri now offers is a package with all the phonogram cards, spelling rule cards the W.I.S.E. Guide to Spelling ... So she has just done all the work for us. Very tempting 
Alison
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humanaevitae
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| Posted: Dec 09 2005 at 3:18pm | IP Logged
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We recently purchased the Spell to Write and Read (SWR) for our 3rd gr ds. After taking a bit to warm up to it, I like it and so does he. Once I figured out the format I found it to have very little prep and easy to give the daily lesson. However it is not a workbook that I could just hand him. But our lessons are done in less than 15-20 minutes and it is something that can handle interuptions. At first I just had the WRR and the notebook but I like this program better as it is more layed out.
I will not start my ddK on it until she is proficently reading. For me I prefer this spelling program once the child can read well and write well. I wanted my oldest son to enjoy reading before I through a bunch of rules at him. I have learning a lot too!
There is an active yahoo group that is wonderful for support and questions. I also think that if you made the splurge and bought the program but didn't like it, you could easily resell it.
If you have questions, feel free to pm me.
Nicole, mother of ds8, dd5, ds3, ds10M
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ALmom
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That is very interesting - TRH did not come with any of the phonograms but had blank charts, etc. but was very helpful to me in figuring out the sequence of things - like where to start an older dc who needed the spelling but already knew the phonograms and was reading proficiently.
I just realized that I also ordered the Wise Guide to Spelling by Wanda Sanseri - this is the book I use the most now other than going back to TRH for blank charts to copy. Based on what you've said, I bet the program you are looking at is probably a combination of these plus all the things already made for you. It would be nice to have all this in one book.
The way we did the phonograms was to copy the phonogram card list from the front of WRR (double sided copies so I had the answers/examples on the back), cut them out and laminated them. This is not true Spalding but we like the option of flashcards too - and to help me give instant feedback as I didn't know some of the sounds for some of the multi-letter phonograms. TRH had sample blank charts as well as samples filled in - I simply made copies for my own use so dc could fill in blank charts and we keep it in a 3 ring binder. I blew up the spelling rules and marking guide chart from TRH to poster size and laminated it for the wall.
At the time SWR was not available so none of this brought up any copyright violations since these were non-consumable books that I had purchased. It wasn't terribly difficult to make the things you need. I was a bit overwhelmed by WRR without TRH and then found the Wise Guide for Spelling much more efficient for me to use. Now that I have the phonogram cards made, I almost never refer to WRR, occassionally go back to TRH for a reminder and use the Guide for Spelling everytime I do spelling work with dc that are using this program. It doesn't seem all that complicated anymore, but I almost refused to use it again after the first dc when we only had WRR and were a bit slavish to Spalding. (just my own personal experience here).
One thing I will say - it doesn't take tons of time per day but it does requiere mom for almost everything since it is based on dictation. This does become difficult for me (6 dc) so I don't use it every year, for everyone - but like to spend a few years on it with each dc. That being said, it is my favorite spelling programs because it is not about memorizing words or rules - but about really thinking about why words are spelled the way they are. Even if we do not formally use the program every year, I find myself going back to it for words dc misspell in their work - and the method of breaking a word apart and thinking about it carries over to whatever we do in the other years. We always use the spelling rules and marking quides for any troublesome words whether they are in the "program" or not.
Hope this helps you some. I guess by the time I bought both books and made my own laminated charts, I probably spent $40 or more on the two books (I also purchased WRR which was about $20 too) plus it did cost some for copying and laminating the supplemental stuff. This may give you an idea of cost of the books and materials individually. You do not need WRR, by the way, once you have TRH and The Wise Guide to Spelling.
Janet
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Alcat
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| Posted: Dec 09 2005 at 4:56pm | IP Logged
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Thank you Janet,
This is extreamly helpful. It is always a balance between money and if or will mommy have the time to make the materials
I think I can handel 15min of time for each dc with this program, as my other one was taking me 45  . That is why I had to put it on the shelf and just walk away. I wasn't able to give my other dc any time becaus ds7 was having intense school time for 2hrs and at the end of it we were both fried!
One question though, once the children are reading do you then begin the WISE Guide? Have you ever used WRR or WISE to teach a child to read like they recommend in WRR? If not what do you uses to teach a child to read?
God Bless,
Alison
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ALmom
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| Posted: Dec 13 2005 at 12:54am | IP Logged
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I've never used WRR to teach reading. Guess I really wanted the gratification of being able to read to come more quickly before getting bogged down in a systematic attack on words and how they are put together. I still wanted them to have the tools to do this (and with vision problems including visual memory, sight reading wasn't even an option we considered)with a phonetically based system and phonetically based readers.
I have used a variety of stuff (now you know why my poor dh rolls his eyes when I say - yes, it's expensive but with all our dc it will save us in the long run because we'll use it 6 times).
We have used the following to teach/support learning to read and have never done it exactly the same with any of our dc:
Sing Spell Read and Write - music tapes, great game ideas, lengthy (but interesting in a silly way) phonetically based readers,and workbooks. It was very expensive because you had to order it with a silly box of cheap prizes. They have modified the program since I used it so don't know how PC they have become. There was nothing offensive when I ordered it but it was secular. At the time there was not much available other than even more expensive stuff, at least not that I knew about at the time).
Montissori type manipulatives - we made them ourselves or raided teacher supply store sales for textured alphabet letters, movable alphabet, sandpaper letters, etc. I wasn't quite sure how to guide their use so it never became the only "program" but dc did really enjoy making words and it did help us do some stuff without bogging down in penmanship (which eye-hand difficulties made very taxing and time consuming in our house).
CHC Little Stories for Little Folks - short, homemade booklets the dc made and colored as they read them. They began to read phonetically very quickly - one or two sentence stories so not particularly interesting stories at first. They read more like a child's letter. However, the print was larger than most, the lessons were very short, to the point, no extraneous busywork and dc was successful very quickly. Not a lot of phonics work, though phonetically based with some phonics lessons. I didn't care for the instructions on how to sound out the consonents buh for B - and used the way Sing, Spell... had taught. CHC uses MCP phonics as well which seemed like endless drudgery to us. The program is very, very inexpensive and Catholic.
Little Angel Readers - 4 phonetic readers with workbooks. The workbooks were sufficient for basic phonics but weak on multi-letter phonograms. The readers were more interesting than CHC and also Catholic (but being lengthier, you did spend more time getting through them). Their length was shorter than Sing, Spell and definitely longer than CHC. The price was more reasonable than Sing, Spell.. Overall the dc enjoyed them - except our dc that taught himself to read without any guidance from anyone being inspired by older siblings in order to read the funny parts of LOTR. They did have a wonderful reference with contacts for various reading difficulties in the TM(like the vision problem our dc had) and pointers on how to decide whether a difficulty is lack of readiness or something that might require outside assistance. They also summarized various ideas about how to teach reading and writing (the ball stick method, the method taught in Sing, Spell, etc. and the various ideas about how to blend). Each program has there own prejudice about which way is best and how other ways will confuse dc. It really helped me to see the different ways set out so if one wasn't working, I could try another without investing in another program.
Now that I have all this stuff - I use a hodgepodge as the need presents itself for teaching reading. The one thing I have learned is that even with dc with vision problem where writing (eye-hand of it) was extremely difficult and tedious, still I think it would have helped to do a little more writing to keep a better balance. We were afraid that the Spalding method would have been too intense for our dc who were dealing with vision problems and the accomplishment of reading quickly built their confidence. All the writing in Spalding would have slowed them down too much at that point.
Once they are reading at some level, then as long as it is not stressful to either mom or dc, WRR system seems so good to me. I wish we had started our 3rd grader last year with Wise Guide - but therapy just took so much time that I felt I couldn't consistently follow through and I opted for the personal time with me to be in First Communion Prep.
It might be fine to teach reading with WRR, but I just was afraid that they would get bogged down in the tediousness of the writing and phonograms and not know what it was all about because it would have taken hours for my dc to write a few words.
We began WRR (really for spelling) with our oldest in 6 grade and she and I both hated it that year. We couldn't quite figure out why she (who had seemingly taught herself at 4 or 5) would not move on to anything beyond picture books and took forever to do work. Her writing was very small and tense and this took so much time for us. (We later found a vision problem which we corrected). We didn't think of copying the charts/making the forms and having her write in them. I didn't think to test her spelling level, couldn't figure out how to proceed if I started somewhere other than the beginning so that is what we did - and she was rightfully insulted to be asked to spell bed and such at her age and ability.
When 2nd dd with the vision problem began it, she had just finished vision therapy, was taking off on reading and we had just found out that the materials we had picked up to continue from before were too easy. She was about 10 yo at the time - I have no idea what grade but by age I think it was 4th/5th. I went with St Thomas Aquinas Academy that year for the informal testing just to try and shorten the time it took for me to figure out where she was at in various areas. They did the spelling assessment for me and told me where to place her in WRR. I began the program according to their advice - but with fear and trembling because of experience with dd #1. They were the ones that encouraged me to do it my way (and they generally started in 3rd/4th grade with the program). She loved it and to this day is the best speller in the family. We only did it for one year but she got most of the way through the book.
We have just begun it with our 6 grader as visual memory was very difficult for him. I wish I'd started a little sooner as he is a very poor speller due to visual memory problems related to vision that have just been overcome. We will probably be doing this for several years with him.
I want to start my 3rd grader now(he would have enjoyed it even last year) and should really put the two together (except I'm afraid it might hurt the older ds) so am just hobbling along with CHC spellers for this one - but find myself using the explanations in WRR. Because he taught himself to read without phonics, I really want to spend several years with him on the speller but I probably won't start Wise Guide until next year because of my time constraints.
I think whenever we start teaching our 6 yo, I'll use the CHC reader because it is short and sweet and get's them reading quickly. It is phonetic but not terribly busy. Then I'd like to move right to the Wise Guide. With this program you get spelling, handwriting and phonics all at once and it is designed as a go at your own pace.
Don't know if this helps - hope it does. I don't know anyone who has actually used WRR to teach reading and our family was dealing with the vision things that certainly colored what would/wouldn't work for us. I do think having at least some ability in reading and writing before beginning makes sense even with no vision problems (but just my own opinion/instinct talking here).
Janet
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Alcat
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| Posted: Dec 15 2005 at 8:25am | IP Logged
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Thanks for the help Janet and Nicole. I actually have the Little Stories for Little Folks. I didn't use it with ds7 because the print was too small for him. My dd5 might have better luck with it. We have also used the Little Angel Readers and liked them a lot.
Ds7 is in a place where he must practice his reading every day to increase his fluency and then couple it with a better spelling program. So, I decided to invest in the SWR program after reading through my friends WRR and Starting a Spelling Notebook.
I am using 100EZ Lessons with dd5 and I think with SWR I will work through the phonics cards and begin a notebook for her (she has great fine motor skills and LOVES writing )
It seems to me that both WRR and SWR both fit in beautifully with a CM approach- dictation, copywork, short lessons. I will let you all know how things go in a bit.
Thanks and God Bless,
Alison
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Erin
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| Posted: Dec 16 2005 at 3:38am | IP Logged
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Alison,
Just another thought. I have done the Spalding program (as in learnt to teach it myself) I would have to say the book is not laid out well. Although I have heard further additions improved.
Anyhow I do love the cards and this is all I ever get around to teaching my children, their phonic sounds using the Spalding sounds. (I have added a couple of Australian sounds) after that, well.. I've attempted the spelling, and whilst it makes sense to me as an adult my children loath it and I had to ditch plans for teaching Spalding spelling.
I'm sorry, I have probably confused you more.
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Alcat
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| Posted: Dec 16 2005 at 6:55am | IP Logged
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Hey Erin,
I understand what you're saying. I liked what I saw in WRR and it looks as if it will be easy to mold into our own version of it depending on the child's specific needs. What I really needed was something to bridge the gap between phonics, reading, spelling, copywork, and dictation; both programs seem to do that nicely.
I think SWR will give me a bit more handholding unitl I get the hang of it. I also like that they have the cards so I can use them with my 7yrold-who is reading, and my 5yrold- who is learning to read.
I think my dd5 will love the spelling notebook because she loves to writing; she fills endless notebooks with words she can spell. My 7yrold may or may not like the notebook but I think he will prefer it to a workbook (he is an auditory learner).
In the end my hope is that it teaches me how to teach spelling (and I might even learn to spell  ) By doing this I can really cut down on the lesson time we currently have. I want almost everything we do to be as pared down as we can get it: SIMPLE- that is where God is calling me right now 
On the other hand I might hate it and you all will see it for sale on Cathswap
Alison
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ALmom
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| Posted: Dec 17 2005 at 1:32am | IP Logged
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Erin,
The first time I used Spalding WRR, I also hated it. I really thought I'd never touch it again and didn't even have the heart to sell it and hoist it on some poor unsuspecting dc. When our 2nd dd finished vision therapy and we were stumped about where to go, I was encouraged to try this again with some guidance, the supplemental books in SWR and modifications and it was just the key for second dd. (I almost refused to try as our first experience was really horrible - but I had signed up for curriculum so that they could help in placing dd in appropriate level. We were just so clueless where to start her as she obviously was bored with where we had left off before therapy. The school suggested I try their version of WRR for a few weeks and see. If I didn't like it they promised to help me find something else. I thought they'd be hunting in 2 weeks). With the appropriate guidance in how to modify the program, it really worked well for us.
The SWR is, for lack of a better word, a more flexible Spalding and worked much better for us. We still do our own thing with even the supplemental books which really help and are not slaves to the system, but mold it to the child. It's been great for all but the first dc - for her I was a slave to the system rather than the other way around.
Janet
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Erin
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| Posted: Dec 17 2005 at 4:02am | IP Logged
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ALmom wrote:
Erin,
The SWR is, for lack of a better word, a more flexible Spalding and worked much better for us. We still do our own thing with even the supplemental books which really help and are not slaves to the system, but mold it to the child. It's been great for all but the first dc - for her I was a slave to the system rather than the other way around.
Janet |
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Janet,
We have LEM Phonics here which is similar to Spalding like your SWR. LEM stands for Light Educational Ministries which are a Protestant homeschool ministry. Basically they took Spalding Australianised some of the sounds, we drag some of our sounds out. And made it far more user friendly. They have also put out little work booklets which are quite effective.
The teachers are far less rigid too.
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Alcat
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| Posted: Dec 18 2005 at 5:06pm | IP Logged
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The SWR is, for lack of a better word, a more flexible Spalding and worked much better for us. We still do our own thing with even the supplemental books which really help and are not slaves to the system, but mold it to the child.
Janet[/QUOTE]
This was what I liked about the program. It appears to be easy enough to fit the needs of individual children.
Alison
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: SWR vs WRR
