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Elizabeth
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My reluctant learner is 13. This fall, in an attempt to pare down to the bare essentials and offer tons of support, I told him that all we would do for the entire run of the Kidswrite Basic course was Bravewriter: the course, the lifestyle prompts and the Arrow. No math. No Latin. Nothing but Bravewriter. Granted, Bravewriter wasn't of his choosing, but it seemed like a good compromise and he didn't balk at taking the course.
Assignment #1 came and went and he wanted nothing to do with it. Assignment #2 came and went and he wanted nothing to do with it. Assignment #3 was a Freewrite.He had just spent half an hour telling me every nuance of a new video game he'd rented. I told him to write about it at the keyboard for 15 minutes. He sat there for an hour and half and didn't touch the keys. Tears rolling down his face, utter despair enveloping the entire room. "I don't want anybody to read my writing. I can't spell. I'm not good at anything." No words of encouragement could touch this. I asked for 10 minutes. Still nothing. I offered to type for him. Still nothing.
We discussed short term goals. We discussed longterm goals. He has neither.
I reminded him that the agreement in our house for online courses is that if you miss an assignment, you must reimburse Dad the full cost of the course. He brightened.
"You mean I can pay him $100 and I don't have to do this anymore?" Sigh..
Finally, in utter desperation, I said, "If you'll just spend 10 minutes writing everything great about the game, I'll buy it for you!" 
He wrote for 20 minutes. I can't afford this class  .
In all seriousness, he had a reason for writing, but it was bribery. This isn't going to work longterm. I cannot motivate this child. Can a kid who just doesn't want to do anything be unschooled? Or homeschooled for that matter?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Kelly
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Oh Elizabeth, I feel for you. My 10 yo ds is just like this. Yet, I hate browbeating the lad and dislike bribery(altho I resort to both more than I care to admit). More than once he's proposed the idea of his paying his way out of a class, too. This very moment, I'm listening to him mutter,"I wish Math would just fly away..." Two days ago he had to write a short paper on King George III...it was like pulling teeth. He spent HOURS arguing about this little mini-report, telling me I love the other children more than I love him, that I'm torturing him on purpose yadda yadda yadda. All because of King George III. At this point, I was about ready to start my own American Revolution. Big crocodile tears from ds, and the concommitant gnashing ot teeth/tearing of hair. In the end, he cranked out a nice little essay, (beginning, "Have you ever wondered about King George III of England?  ) But getting to yes takes its toll on me, and on HIM, too, I daresay.
I'll look forward to some inspiration from The Gang, but in the meantime, know you are not alone.
Kelly in FL
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Bridget
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Once you get the game, playing it can be the carrot for doing some work. That will last a while anyways.
My boys are a lot like this. Unschooling them wouldn't work well for me. I've tried, it's like nailing down water.
But i think it's my personality and aptitude that's the problem Not unschooling. I need plans and structure to keep them going. I'm willing to compromise and try things I think they'll like, but I have realized that all learning won't be fun. They don't have to like it. They do have to try to do the work. It's the only way we seem to keep moving forward in improving math and writing skills. Slowly.
Mine would flounder worse in school.
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Cindy
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| Posted: Sept 13 2005 at 10:43am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
Assignment #1 came and went and he wanted nothing to do with it. Assignment #2 came and went and he wanted nothing to do with it. Assignment #3 was a Freewrite.He had just spent half an hour telling me every nuance of a new video game he'd rented. I told him to write about it at the keyboard for 15 minutes. He sat there for an hour and half and didn't touch the keys. Tears rolling down his face, utter despair enveloping the entire room. "I don't want anybody to read my writing. I can't spell. |
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Hi Elizabeth-
I can relate with you and much of my research into homeschool/Cm/unschooling has been brought about b/c of things similar to what you describe. You are not alone. 
We also had a slow start to the BW courses. But when they saw the real encouragment from the teacher and the acceptance of their area of interest (video games) they began to enjoy it. But it took well into the second course for that trust to gel.
I think it took a while b/c before video games were not give credance (by me) and they were waiting for 'the other shoe to drop'-- BW said they could write about anything... but they figured soon it would turn into a "real" writing assignment. And it would be contrived as past curriculum I had used. (but since put away)
BTW, after the first course they wrote about other things than video games. But now I see, they have cut their writing teeth and built skills on nintendo as subject! And the skills they have learned are just as real.
But, they were encouraged by BW and began to trust. Now I see my 15yo posting his thoughts and comments on the short story board and coming into his own with his own voice. I think finding one's own voice is really a big part, esp for reluctant or shy learners. Being accpeted when they are not the mainstream kind of kid who fits mom's plans well. 
BW is a great start to building confidence with writing, which I seen be transferred to other areas. Some kids on BW didn't want to be there, but the teachers were so encouraging they could take an entry such as
"I hate this.. I hate to write."
They would find their expression and draw out more. It was neat to see. By the end some of these kids were writing paragraphs! Maybe clue in the course teacher if you haven't already? And give it some time.
We liked that anything they wrote about was valuable. My boys have had a lot of things spingboard from their like of video games. It helped when I took it seriously- which was hard for me to do.
Your 13yo has a lot to live up to in your house- with his accomplished older brothers..! Maybe if there is something he really loves it can become "his thing" and maybe spingboard other things.. That has been writing in our house. As Pat Faranga said at the conference I just attended.. to build on their *strengths*. Maybe writing about video games might be a seed that sprouts with the Bw encouragement? Or maybe it will be something else...
Just some ideas ...
Ignore any thing that doesn't apply!
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Elizabeth
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Cindy,
I DID encourage him to write about video games. That was an acceptable topic from the get-go. My problem was never that I didn't want him to write about video games or that he thought it was unacceptable. Believe, his game habit is very accepted here. It's even encouraged at time. But he wouldn't do the writing until I promised to buy the game . He knew that video games were okay because I showed him topic lists online and I've shared Julie's thoughts on video games with him. But he doesn't want anyone to read anything he's written on a public forum (hence, he won't get beyond the intro on the teen forum here, depsite Trip Derham's persistent invitations). He's very shy. And I'm learning that he's a perfectionist as well. If he's not certain that his writing --no matter the topic--isn't absolutely perfect, he's not going to put it out there.
And he's seen the process modeled. He's watched me edit professionally. After I left that job, he watched me carry around manuscript after manuscript, re-writing at all odd times. He watched me help his older brother extensivley through a Bravewriter course this summer. He's seen me send things to other people for comments and re-writes. But he's completely unwilling to put himself out there. He also struggles with fine motor and so that is a stumbling block. Even with keyboarding, the words don't just tumble out--it's very hard work. And if he dictates, well then, he's had to tell his thoughts to someone else.Maybe this will get easier with time. My immediate problem, though is that he's begged me not to share the Freewrite he did yesterday. So now, to put it on the forum, where I know he'll be encouraged, is to betray his wishes and his trust in me. I feel boxed in.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Cindy
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| Posted: Sept 13 2005 at 11:00am | IP Logged
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Elizabeth wrote:
encouragement could touch this. I asked for 10 minutes. Still nothing. I offered to type for him. Still nothing.
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Elizabeth..
Just thinking.. maybe next time he gives you a spontaneous narration you could listen and then go type it up and bring it back to him. That way he won't be on the spot to think of it while you are poised to type.. but would see his words put to paper. That might encourage him?
It's neat to see one's own thoughts in black and white...
Just an idea....
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juliecinci
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Hey Elizabeth - tell Rachel! She'll be really helpful.
Also, if he were in my class, I'd start with you. I would want you to let go a bit more. The first freewrite can be a list or it can be three minutes. If he had just told you a great narration, I would have had you jot down what you remembered and work from there.
One of the difficulties is that you signed him up without his buy in and now he is resenting it.
Perhaps you can begin by letting him know you won't sign him up again without his true consent, that you will send his writing privately to the teacher until he gains confidence and that you will pare the expectations waaaaay down (three minutes of writing) at one sitting.
Take his complaints seriously. He's young still... really.
And some kids never do love writing. If you continue to push, push, push, he will grow to hate it.
What we want is for him not to hate writing.
Does he Instant Message or chat online? Does he keep an online journal? These were helpful to my oldest who is a reluctant writer.
We also started a journal in fourth grade that he added to any time he had a big experience that produced lots of emotion. He wrote in it once or twice per year (sometimes he went two years without writing in it) and still has the same journal today at 18. It is a written record of his favorite or hardest experiences.
The hardest part of the online course for you is that you want him to do it but he doesn't. Maybe a good long discussion about why you went ahead when he just wasn't fully ready for that level of participation might be the best thing.
The goal has to be that what he offers (written or verbal) is a good place to start. Starting with why he hates writing or is embarassed by it IS the right place for him to start.
And buying him a game as a reward may help compensate a tiny bit - putting him in class against his will cost you (cash) the way the class may feel like it's costing him (time and embarassment), you know? 
Julie
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Cindy
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Hi Elizabeth-
That is good you accepted the video games.. you are ahead of me becaue it took me a while to do so. :)
It sounds like he *really* doesn't like to be in the limelight. I read a great book about introverts that helped me understand them- how they think more deeply and generally keep the world going around. You may have already explored that, but I can find the title if you are interested.
I wonder what it is that he really enjoys? Is there something he feels proud of, even if he doesn't want to share it in public? Maybe build upon that, whatever it is... Mine just now at age 15 he is beginning to find that voice, though still quiet. But I think back on who he is and this is his true authentic self. I couldn't change if even if I wanted to. I have had to accept it -- and now I think love him even more for it- though it is not the most convinent personality to homeschool in traditional ways.
He had to incubate I think all those years and just watch others. All the things I thought were so neat and great opportunities, he shunned. It was always a dilmena how much to require.
But I see the incubation has paid off more than the requiring.. though we are still on the journey.
I would love a forum on raising this type of child. I have not found much out there over the years.
Sorry if I missed the boat with my last post.. I agree with Julie, though.. forcing didn't work. But suggesting did and then giving space.
And, I agree I would not post his freewrite -- wonder if he would agree to have Rachel read it privately? She is so encouraging..
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Cindy
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| Posted: Sept 13 2005 at 11:22am | IP Logged
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juliecinci wrote:
Does he Instant Message or chat online? Does he keep an online journal? These were helpful to my oldest who is a reluctant writer.
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This has been a real boost here. They began slowly with chat rooms they alone were in and send silly stuff back and forth. They IM their IRL buddy- have created some email lists for friends. But it had to be on their terms when they were ready. It helped when I took an interest in it, too and took it serisouly and allowed LOTS of screen time so the timer was not looming.
It also helps me greatly to put myself in their shoes. How would I feel doing this course, mom asking me to email, etc etc etc. I can remember being that age and I probably wouldn't like anything I felt was contrived either.
What took was just easy, fun ideas...starting out only with people they knew, then expanded to one or two list friends they have not met but have lots in common with.
Mine too, were not interested in a teen list. There was no common subject for one thing.. so what to say?
The more venues the better....
fwiw...
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Cindy in Texas
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Elizabeth
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I'll contact Rachel. He won't chat online or IM. And there are topics that interest him on the message board--several of them. And Trip Derham is a very good frined of his. but he's not going there...no way.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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teachingmyown
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I know this may sound bad, but would it help if he read the work of the other kids in the class? In each of the classes that Charlie took, there were at least a few kids who didn't write well (they all did improve). Charlie, who still hates to write, would read other submissions and feel more confident. I don't know if he thought to himself "I can do so much better" or just " I can't do worse". But it helped him not be so self conscious.
I agree with handing it over to Rachel. She really knew how to get Charlie motivated. He is quite sarcastic and loves to banter and she never missed a beat in throwing it right back at him.
He wrote about video games, rock bands and movies and was so happy that Rachel showed genuine interest in these topics.
I won't say that the classes were a "great" success for him, but he went from someone who would not write anything to someone who could put together a decent piece of writing, at least if it involved something he was interested in.
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Leonie
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We haven't done any classes like Bravewriter - but I do have one son (T) , who often needs me to re-think my approach. That is putting it mildly, of course! 
We do deals - I liken them to the meal deals at McDonalds, not bribes.
One of my older sons (N) was like that, too, when young.
These two sons are numbers three and six in the family of seven dc. I feel that they compare themselves to their elders and this makes them feel inadequate.
I don't know if this is your situation , Elizabeth. I have found Cindy's and Julie's advice to be helpful. I also found a discussion on a recent unschooling list to be helpful, too.
Basically, a poster pointed out how we often make things look easy to our dc. They see me write and it flows. Some dc compare themselves and feel like failures.
So, the poster suggested that we parents try something new - learn something and let our dc see our struggle. So, they can realize that it is okay to struggle.I am learning skateboarding and struggling!
Well, none of this may apply . And I know it doesn't help with the dilemma of the freewrite - to publish or not.
Leonie in Sydney
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juliecinci
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Trying something new! Leonie I love that.
I suggested a year and a half ago on my e-zine that parents take on copywork for themselves, but to do so by trying it in a different way. For instance, they could learn calligraphy as they copy, or they could try copywork in a foreign language or a different alphabet. (I was working on New Testament Greek each day and was discovering just how exhausting it was to have to hold the images of the letters in my mind while I made them. I would only last ten minutes, as an adult who already reads another language fluently.)
Because I'm in grad school, the kids see me meeting deadlines, panicking when I'm behind, they see me using notecards for memorization and highlighters to mark the parts of a book that I'll need later.
My two teens, now, use notecards for studying. We help each other.
It was my husband who really encouraged me to live my learning in front of the kids. He has done the same. In California, he took up bread baking and used to work on it every Friday night. The kids soon wanted in and they got to learn too. But he isn't a cook of any kind so his learning curve was steep. It was a great reversal for him to learn something totally new in front of the kids.
Good advice.
Julie
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MacBeth
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Elizabeth, this always gets me thinking.
If Christian hated art and struggled with it, you'd drop it. If he hated music lessons, you'd let him off the hook. Writing is such an art, too, but it has grown into a necessary means of communication, and so we are reluctant to let kids avoid it. I understand the idea of writing about something he knows and loves (as opposed to "pretend you are a pencil" lessons), but creative writing as an exercise is still meaningless to him. While he may be interested in video games, I think he does not see the necessity of writing about them...until it will get him something. And that's very normal.
And isn't acquisition one main reason for writing in the first place? While it may seem like bribery, isn't is just reality? Honestly, we have to ask the big question every time we sit down to write: Why am I writing? Am I writing to share information? Or to acquire something? Or to right a wrong? Are there other reasons to write? And the biggest question I ask if I have a kid who is reluctant to do anything: Am I asking him to do this (whatever it is) for a grade, to fulfill a requirement, or because it is a meaningful thing in his life? If the writing (or whatever) is merely an exercise, how can I first make it meaningful, and second, show clearly how it will be important to do it well. The latter is especially difficult with young folks who don't see themselves using the skill (whatever it is) in the future.
Creative writing, in particular, is an art. Not all of us will become this kind of writer. Each of us may need to write to communicate something important at some time in our life. Will we not best serve the reluctant writer with very concrete, meaningful and real reasons to write, and not writing for art's sake?
If, for example, you tell him that he may have a certain thing if he can give you reasons why he should have it (even if it just comes down to a list of "cool" things about the item), is this not accomplishing, for him, the real reason for writing? It's not terribly altruistic, but it is exactly why most people write (those who are not "writers"). Persuasion and specific techniques for that kind of writing (as opposed to creative techniques) can be added as you go along. You might say, "I understand from what you have written that you want this item, but I am still not convinced that letting you have it is a good thing. Persuade me."
Maybe this is not helpful, and I'm off-base, but Christian seems to me to be a real kid in a real family...creative writing may not be real enough for him.
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Mary G
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Elizabeth:
Here's an idea, similar to MacBeth's that worked for a friend of mine. Her son wanted a computer very badly so she had him write up a proposal -- what it would cost, where the money would come from, why he "needed" it. Couldn't you do this with your 13 yo the next time == becuase as I've seen with these electronic games, there is always another one they must have or an upgrade or something.......
Praying for you all.....
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juliecinci
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Macbeth, I loved your entire post. It reminded me of something.
When my oldest was 14, he wanted to play a certain kind of X Box game that included shooting people (don't most of them? But back then we were worried about the violence).
My husband suggested he write an essay to argue his position that the violence would not be dangerous to him. We put "playing the games" on hold until he wrote the essay.
This is the one time I really got to teach him a writing format and he took to it with energy because he was passionate about the topic and the result would potentially have an impact on whether or not he got to play those games. He wanted good research because it was possible that we wouldn't be persuaded. (I will say that he didn't start writing it right away. He hemmed and hawed for a month thinking we'd just give up. When we didn't change our position in a month, he came to me and asked to start working on the essay.)
This was not an exercise for us. We didn't want to spend time researching. But since it mattered to him, we wanted him to do the research.
He wrote a very decent paper and located some excellent research that we read together and so, we ruled in his favor and he was able to play the games. He still cites that as one meaningful real writing experience from his past. (He's my reluctant writer)
Julie
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Elizabeth
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My sense is that this isn't about not wanting to write as much as it's about insecurity and a perceived sense of not being good enough to write.He won't attempt anything he's not sure he's good at. At first galnce, it looks like laziness: he wont' try to do anything. But then, you can see that it's really feel of failure, or even mediocrity. I know he wants to write to Trip and there's a purpose for writing there. The only academic goal he has stated this year is learning to speak German so he can talk to Trip and I won't know what he's saying. But he still WON'T even trade private emails. He lacks the confidence to try. He needs to understand that when we do something we aren't as good at as we like, then, and only then, can we get better. His writing isn't going to improve if he won't even attempt it. I think it's propbably valid that he's looked around this house and wondered how everybody can do something that he sees as difficult so effortlessly. The truth is, it's not effortless. We all work very hard at writing. Sigh...I'm really getting the sense that this is all my fault. Not the best way to start the year.
Off to Mass...and then the pond...this is where he'll be leader of the pack .
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Cindy
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MacBeth wrote:
| Christian seems to me to be a real kid in a real family...creative writing may not be real enough for him. |
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Macbeth,
This is very well said and I have seen this exact thing in my home. I think some people are more tuned into this than others and cannot take anything 'contrived'!
Thanks for sharing- the whole post was right on for me.
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Cindy
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Elizabeth wrote:
I'm really getting the sense that this is all my fault. Not the best way to start the year.
Off to Mass...and then the pond...this is where he'll be leader of the pack . |
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Elizabeth,
I think we have all felt that way at times. I know I have struggled with it with a child like Christian in many ways. It is a process, and I have to remind myself to revel in my successes and let go of the things that haven't worked. I know you have done a lot of GREAT things with your kids! And kids that are not in the mainstream are challenging. And take so much time and energy. Just wanted to give you a vote of support..you are doing great.
It happens that I am reading a book right now that I find speaks to this. B/C I have some of these issues in my house, too. It is called Soar with Your Strenghts by Clifton and Nelson. It was recommended at the unschool conference. It is not a homschool or parenting book. It is really for business manaagment but applies to all.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/044050564X/102 -3198664-6632131?v=glance
Here is the intro to the book- a parable..... http://www.keepingthebest.ca/downloads/rabbits.pdf
The premise is that instead of looking at ourselves (or our kids, employees, etc) and finding their weaknesses and then work to improve them, they suggest to discover the strengths instead and put the bulk of time in expanding them and growing. They contend that there are some things that each of us is intrinsicly able to do well. And some things not. If we spend most of the time on things we can't do well, it frustrates us and will diminish our self confidence.
There are some things we must do that we are not good at, and they recommend 'manageing' them. But not make that the focus.
To me this hit the whole realm of trying to produce the 'well balanced' child. Is that a myth? Lots of implciations.. and things to think about.
I have seen that I try to have one dc focus on math. He, by their definition is classically weak at it. (meaning it does not come easy, forget what you have just done, causes angst, diminished self confidence) I think I may try to really focus on what he is really good at... they say even if it is just ONE thing, that is ok, it will spill over into all disciplines and be a foundation for other things. Most importantly the person will build on success.. like MacBeth was saying.
I know one book is not a panacea, but I just am in the middle of it and it is giving me some insight on the same issues.
Hope some of this helps. I know what it is like to feel that you have a situation no one else does.. if that is where you are right now.
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Cindy in Texas
It Is About The Journey
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cathhomeschool
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Texas Bluebonnets
Joined: Jan 26 2005
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| Posted: Sept 14 2005 at 4:03pm | IP Logged
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Elizabeth,
Have you talked to him about why he doesn't want to write? He said he doesn't want anyone to read his writing, that he can't spell, and that he's not good at anything. But are those his true reasons, or are they excuses? A spell checker or voice recognition software can take care of spelling. He's good at video games and at working with fire, and at many other things, I'm sure. He could journal for his own use if he simply didn't want anyone to read his writing.
If it is, like you said, about insecurity and a perceived sense of not being good enough to write, then I must say that I can see where he's coming from! You're a very good writer, and his mother. He may feel to some degree that you will be critiquing his writing, even if you keep the "critique" to yourself. Interesting that he's willing to learn German so that he can speak to Trip. If you can't understand what he's saying/writing, then you can't critique or judge it. Maybe he would be interested in writing if he could see the long term benefit (of practical writing, as MacBeth suggested) and was assured that no one but his teacher -- including you -- would read his writing.
I have always been shy and a perfectionist, and while I didn't have any problem letting people see what I wrote, I really disliked letting people hear me sing or play piano. I had been in choir for years and was good enough to compete, yet I still felt insecure -- not "good enough" -- and would refuse to sing alone before anyone but a judge and my director. To this day, I do not like singing alone.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Bravewriter, Unschooling, and Video games
