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Erin
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| Posted: Feb 06 2006 at 11:51pm | IP Logged
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Wow,
I've just spent quite some time backreading many of your posts. YOu ladies have much wisdom here and trust, some words particularly struck chords.
I'm writing to ask for some direction and advice. Today I FINALLY came to the realization that I need to LET GO in regards to dd12. I have been led to the realization that she would thrive in a less structured manner. When she was 6 she was a brilliant natural learner, she throve and all of life was an edcuation. She just consumed knowledge and skills. As she got older and I had more children I felt the need to become more 'directed' in order to accomplish everything. Chiara did alright this way but I believe it is time to go back again.
Dd is very strong willed at times, I have a friend who says "I just make my child do ..." No way could I with Chiara and really I don't want to force her. God made her that way for a purpose (I just don't see it yet  )
Today's unhappiness arose from her English, she doesn't like writing and does not like Lingua Mater  I think its lovely. Nor does she want to do History. This year I've attempted to break some of her readings into subjects, not a good idea.
So what do you all have as a minimum? afterall I do want her to have a good education but wish to balance this with inspiring a love for learning.
Is maths a minimum? This is not a problem as she loves maths, she is also creative in many areas and plays the clarinet beautufully. She says she is happy to do maths, spelling and religion. And SOME reading (she is an avid reader) I would love to have her write something. Do I direct her reading in some subtle/blunt manner? and would I get her to keep some track of her reading direction, via writing, notebooking anything? Keeping in mind this will be the least favoured activity.
I thank you all for letting me bug you with all this, its harder to trust at 12 than 6.
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Erin
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Lissa
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| Posted: Feb 07 2006 at 6:35am | IP Logged
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Erin, these are very good questions!
Re the writing, a couple of thoughts come to mind. One is that you might want to look into
Bravewriter. It's the best writing program I've seen, and I've looked at just about everything out there! As a professional writer who HATED writing in school (but wrote for fun outside school), I'm always interested what materials people are offering for kids' writing instruction. Honestly, everything I've looked at except Bravewriter has made me glaze over just the way I did when I was a child. There, how's that for opinionated?
Another approach you could try is Charlotte Mason-style composition. Composition was an important element of CM's curriculum but it was never taught as a separate subject—it was an aspect of the literature readings in other subjects such as history and science. In the younger grades, children would orally narrate each day's short passage in the various books being read aloud for each subject. Around the age of ten, oral narrations would give way to written ones. The idea is that the child simply retells, in as much detail as possible, the passage she has just read or heard. You would then go over the written narration, correcting and chatting about grammar and spelling errors. It's a very gentle and effective approach, and if the child is enthusiastic about the particular books being narrated, it can be lots of fun. (Actually, Bravewriter works on a similar principle.)
Another thought: is it possible that part of what your daughter dislikes about writing is the physical act of handwriting? That was a lot of it for me—to this day I intensely dislike writing by hand. It hurts. All my life I was burning to write stories but I never actually FINISHED one until my parents bought me a typewriter. And when they gave me a computer for a high school graduation present, and I discovered the magic of cut-and-paste revisions, I really took off. There is no doubt in my mind that I would not be a novelist if I had to write my manuscripts by hand. My wrists simply wouldn't be up to it!
So if your daughter expresses any similar dislike of penmanship, maybe she could take some time off writing composition to do a typing or keyboarding program?
Another idea is a blog—several kids I know are enjoying writing long posts for their private/family-only weblogs.
Re history and directing her reading, do you still read aloud to her? By 12, a lot of kids tend to be doing all of their reading on their own. But I wonder if you could engage her in some of the history you'd like her to read by reading it aloud together?
I have to run but I know you're going to get a bunch of excellent suggestions from the other folks on this board. The things I've suggested aren't exactly UNSCHOOLING but if the child is interested, they can happen unschoolishly  (or in a parent-directed manner as well).
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Lissa
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Feb 07 2006 at 10:32am | IP Logged
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I would think that age 12 would be the perfect time to let go for awhile. My ds is 10. I figure the way things are going he will have all the skills he really needs by age 12 (except advanced math). That has been primarily MY responsibility as a parent. When the time comes (at about age 12)I intend to let him use his middle school years really exploring subjects of his own interests. I imagine we will have some down times and some up times, but my hope is by the time he hits the high school years he will be self-directed enough to see what he needs and go after it willingly. The last thing I want is to be fighting with a 16 yo boy about "you need to do your writing (etc) or you won't get into college."
I want to give him credit for becoming a man and making his own choices at that age. I think through encouragement, sharing ideas, freedom to explore, and active strewing through the middle school years he will emerge ready to tackle high school of his own accord.
Just my ideas on the subject.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
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Erin
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| Posted: Feb 07 2006 at 2:00pm | IP Logged
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Lissa wrote:
Re the writing, a couple of thoughts come to mind. One is that you might want to look into
Bravewriter. It's the best writing program I've seen, and I've looked at just about everything out there! As a professional writer who HATED writing in school (but wrote for fun outside school), I'm always interested what materials people are offering for kids' writing instruction. Honestly, everything I've looked at except Bravewriter has made me glaze over just the way I did when I was a child. There, how's that for opinionated? |
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Lissa, the trouble here is I'm reluctant to try yet another one and as I haven't seen bravewriter its hard to know if its the 'fit'. What dd has said she wants is a program that shows her how to write, I think step by step. Last night I had a good talk to dh who si so similar to dd, he finally looked at Lingua Mater and instantly said it wasn't dd it was too much into how you 'feel' which is true he believes our oldest ds would like it, which I can see. Dh's opinion is dd isn't into creative writing (ds is he is in the midst of writing a Redwall book!) but she would come at more factual writing. This I can see, although her descriptive writing is incredible (what very little she has done)
Lissa wrote:
| Another approach you could try is Charlotte Mason-style composition. Composition was an important element of CM's curriculum but it was never taught as a separate subject—it was an aspect of the literature readings in other subjects such as history and science. In the younger grades, children would orally narrate each day's short passage in the various books being read aloud for each subject. Around the age of ten, oral narrations would give way to written ones. The idea is that the child simply retells, in as much detail as possible, the passage she has just read or heard. You would then go over the written narration, correcting and chatting about grammar and spelling errors. It's a very gentle and effective approach, and if the child is enthusiastic about the particular books being narrated, it can be lots of fun. (Actually, Bravewriter works on a similar principle.) |
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Lissa, we have been CMers for years, well at least the parts we like, lots of living books and other parts in a gentle manner. Narration is NOT liked by my most of my children and dd is one. Interestingly ds10 who is the writer in the family, when it comes to narration I can barely get two sentences out of him.
Lissa wrote:
| Another thought: is it possible that part of what your daughter dislikes about writing is the physical act of handwriting? |
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No Chiara loves handwriting/copywork, in fact this year I told her she no longer needed to do it and she is really mising it. Her cursive writing is beautiful! Do you think I should reconsider here? She said yesterday she had planned on writing out the Psalms this year. What she does like doing and has just started thriving at is studied dictation. We only really started this late last year and she can do some really hard pieces. She particularly likes to choose poetry, last Friday she did a poem of Lord Byron's.
Lissa wrote:
| So if your daughter expresses any similar dislike of penmanship, maybe she could take some time off writing composition to do a typing or keyboarding program? |
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I would like to see her improve her typing, she is happy sometimes to use the CD I bought she enjoys bettering her levels. But she is not at all interested in using it say to email. She is suspicious that I am trying to get her to 'write'.
Lissa wrote:
| Another idea is a blog—several kids I know are enjoying writing long posts for their private/family-only weblogs. |
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I never thought of this. I wonder what she would think. Mmm thanks. 
Lissa wrote:
| Re history and directing her reading, do you still read aloud to her? By 12, a lot of kids tend to be doing all of their reading on their own. But I wonder if you could engage her in some of the history you'd like her to read by reading it aloud together? |
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Most of our education is read alouds Its what we mainly do, we have a tendency to pick what we like to do.  However late last year I noticed a trend of hers, not always staying and listening  I find this hard, although she will listen if interested. The trouble is partly she is such an avid reader she may have already read the book without my knowledge. She has enjoyed many living history books, I think the trouble was this year I thought she should do it chronologically. She also didn't like it a great deal when we did unit studies and read too intensively on a topic.
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Erin
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Erin
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| Posted: Feb 07 2006 at 2:23pm | IP Logged
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lapazfarm wrote:
I would think that age 12 would be the perfect time to let go for awhile. .... When the time comes (at about age 12)I intend to let him use his middle school years really exploring subjects of his own interests. ...... I think through encouragement, sharing ideas, freedom to explore, and active strewing through the middle school years he will emerge ready to tackle high school of his own accord.
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Theresa,
This is really great to hear your thoughts. I'm really mulling this all over. This ties in with what a friend said to me yesterday. I rang up a friend who also has a strong child (far stronger than dd actually) She said with her dd she realised that relationships was more important and she had to focus on that more. She had the bare minimum of maths and other than that providing her dd was productively employed she was happy. That may include cooking, playing the guitar, craft or hanging out the washing. Wow what a mum Her dd is also an avid reader so she continually reads from a very wide variety of topics, her choices which totally floor her mother and would NEVER be read if her mum had suggested them. Like the 'history of the royal family' Every so often my friend will expect some writing in relation to what she has been reading, she only expects half a page. And has a variety of methods here.
I know this approach would work with dd very well, its just the inital part of equipping her with the skills to direct herself in a productive manner. And juggling me keeping my 'finger on the pulse' verses time with the younger ones. I've always said I could easily unschool with only two children (and did so with two) but it is much harder with more which is why we changed direction to CM, I felt it was gentle enough, done our way.
I do believe once she's into the swing of directing herself she will be fine, its just getting her there. How do you do it? Also I know if I didn't have some guidelines she will just be re-reading her favourites AGAIN which is fine but not what I want her to be doing in the mornings. I want that time to be used to broaden her horizons. Maybe that is not unschooling- telling her that during set time she can't re-read the Little House books, Pius X or Trixie Belden for the 4th time? I told her that during that time she can't re-read any book that she has read more than twice.
Dd has definet ideas and won't be budged in areas she doesn't want. Also I have to be careful in how I present things, if I do it corectly all goes smoothly, she'll take to an idea. She is very bright in many areas, that is the thing I want her to develop to the full potential God has given her, to be the person HE wants, so she is ready for what HE has in store.
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Erin
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Feb 07 2006 at 3:32pm | IP Logged
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Erin,
Just some additional thoughts.
It sounds like you have a very good idea of what works and what does not for your dd. You should trust your instincts. Don't let fear keep you from it. It is true that keeping "you finger on the pulse" is more difficult with multiple children. But you could have regular check-in times where you discuss what dd is up to-perhaps at a special mom-daughter tea-time when the littles are napping and the boys are doing another task?
BTW: My dd (16) reads her favorite books over and over as well. The way I see it, she gets something new out of them each time or she wouldn't be doing it. Plus, it doesn't stop her from picking up a new book later. And she is a straight-A student in high school now!
We use bravewriter for ds. It is a wonderful program but does not sound at all like what you are looking for in a writing course for dd. I've heard good things about the products from Institute for Excellence in Writing. Maybe you could check them out.
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Theresa
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Karen E.
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| Posted: Feb 07 2006 at 4:04pm | IP Logged
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Erin wrote:
What dd has said she wants is a program that shows her how to write, I think step by step. |
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Hi, Erin,
If you'd like some inexpensive (read: free, online) help, you might try this website, The Guide to Grammar and Writing. It's clear, step-by-step instruction in several areas. For example, if your daughter would like to improve her essay writing skills, there's an excellent little tutorial on how to write a five-paragraph essay at this link.
Is this the kind of thing she might like to try?
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Karen E.
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Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Karen E.
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| Posted: Feb 07 2006 at 4:08pm | IP Logged
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Erin wrote:
Do I direct her reading in some subtle/blunt manner? and would I get her to keep some track of her reading direction, via writing, notebooking anything? Keeping in mind this will be the least favoured activity.
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I often keep track of the kids' reading myself. I like to know and have a list of all the books we've read in a year, but I don't want to turn the list-making into a chore for the kids, or make "book reports" due, or anything like that. So, I keep my own log, based on what I initiate, what they get from the library, and what they pick up around the house.
I also "strew" good things when I want to introduce something new. Last month I got a couple of books on Mozart that I left around, and they've been read more than once. Check the archives for "strewing" threads.
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Karen E.
mom to three on earth, and several souls in God's care
Visit my blog, with its shockingly clever title, "Karen Edmisten."
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Mary G
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Erin, you also might want to look at WriteGuide -- I'm a consultant for them (so consider that as you read on...
but I really like that each student is treated as an individual and the writing course is molded to fit each student. Some of mine are doing short stories, some practicing SAT essays, some working on a research paper that's been assigned in their curriculum.
It is very CM-ish in that each student is worked with on THEIR level, not what all else are doing. You can join anytime and the consultant assigned to your student will adapt to that student.
Just my $.02!
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Erin
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| Posted: Feb 08 2006 at 2:18am | IP Logged
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Theresa,
Thanks for your knid words of support. Check in time sounds good, that would be workable. I have looked on the net at IEW before and wondered whether that would be the fit. I'll have another look at the description.
Karen,
Thank you very much for the links They may well be it and free Dd and I'll will look later.
I've been pouring over the strewing threads, they really spoke to me.
Mary,
Thanks so much for the link to Write Guide I'm certainly checking it out
Thought I'd tell you how it went today. Dd and I talked this morning and we decided to let her chose what she wanted to do regards subjects, maths, spelling, dictation and copywork she was happy to do. Religion and readings. Regards the readings I stressed to her that she was to take direction here choosing what she wanted to read, dd wants to read anything to do with nature particularly animals. I also said that she was to have one book going at a time suggested by me to 'broaden her horizons', she could reject my choice but had to settle on something.
It was soo funny, she chose a living book on otters and my suggestion she agreed too. I pulled GA Henty's book Freedom's Cause on Wallace the Bruce out. She has been reading it all day.
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Erin
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Feb 08 2006 at 7:45am | IP Logged
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Hooray! Sounds like you guys will work it out just fine 
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Theresa
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Unschooling - starting out, letting go
