4Real Forums: Lenten Regulations

Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.

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Elizabeth
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 2:54pm \| IP Logged

I read this funny post from Maureen Wittman's blog which recounts her correspondence with a canon lawyer about Lenten regulations. Her comment about teenagers made me laugh.

According to her expert, Sundays don't count as part of Lent, so if you gave something up for Lent, you can have it on Sunday. One of my teenagers must have thought long and hard about that. This is my shy, reserved child, who frequently pretends he's not all there.

He announced that he was giving up donuts. He LOVES donuts and we were duly impressed with his sacrifice. Then it slowly set in. The only time we have donuts is after Mass on Sunday. He didn't give up anything

! The day after I realized this I made zeppole,Italian doughnuts, on an ordinary Wednesday night. And we dipped them in chocolate ganache. He didn't get any. The next night, said teenager made homemade mocha ice cream. Three of his siblings had given up ice cream. Somehow, I think we've lost the whole point

.

Now, a serious question: a priest once told a group on Ash Wednesday that the rules of fast and abstinence are only in effect from sun up to sundown. Anyone ever hear that one??

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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)

KathrynTherese
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 3:30pm \| IP Logged

Elizabeth wrote:

Now, a serious question: a priest once told a group on Ash Wednesday that the rules of fast and abstinence are only in effect from sun up to sundown. Anyone ever hear that one??

I have never heard that one, Elizabeth. It defies logic - that would mean that after sundown on Lenten Fridays you could stop for a hamburger?! Or that you can have whatever you want on the night of Ash Wednesday.

I HAVE heard something that makes a bit more sense, in the same vein: that the day begins at sundown the night before. In other words, your Sunday really begins Saturday evening (which is why you can attend Mass and fulfill your obligation then) and ends Sunday evening (when you begin to scramble to get ready for Monday morning). This is how the Jews observe the Sabbath. But I have never taken this to apply (or heard it applied by the Church) to rules of fasting and abstinence.

I'm curious to see if anyone else has light to shed on this.

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saintanneshs
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Posted: March 24 2006 at 3:35pm \| IP Logged

Nope...never heard of it! But that's not surprising since I'm just learning about so many things with regard to our faith

...

Just wanted to add another

with yours...
When my siblings and I had all graduated from college (almost all of us anyway) we found out one night at dinner, from our favorite local priest, that "Sundays didn't count" with regard to our Lenten sacrifices. Since we were children we'd dutifully given something up every Lent and never relaxed about it on Sundays and so we asked our mother if what Father said could possibly be true (Can you imagine our shock?!

)...all those Sunday sacrifices!

I don't think she was prepared for the ambush that hit her when she informed us all that she knew this information all along...

our fault of course, but she still carries the nickname of "Hard-Core" Mom

AND...My dad was diagnosed with diabetes last year and since then, my "hard-core" mom has cut out nearly everything he loved to eat and has replaced his sweet-tooth choices with all things nutritious, much to his chagrin. At lunch this week, my boys asked my dad what he had given up for Lent. He stopped to think about that one for a minute and I jumped in with, "Thanks to Grammy, Grampop lives in a PERPETUAL state of sacrifice!"

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Posted: March 24 2006 at 4:05pm \| IP Logged

KathrynTherese wrote:

I HAVE heard something that makes a bit more sense, in the same vein: that the day begins at sundown the night before. In other words, your Sunday really begins Saturday evening (which is why you can attend Mass and fulfill your obligation then) and ends Sunday evening (when you begin to scramble to get ready for Monday morning). This is how the Jews observe the Sabbath. But I have never taken this to apply (or heard it applied by the Church) to rules of fasting and abstinence.

That's the only thing I can think how that would apply, such as Liturgy of the Hours having Evening Prayer I and Evening Prayer II. But even then, the prayers for Night Prayer after Evening Prayer II are still for the feast or Sunday.

Craziness!

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Elizabeth
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 10:48am \| IP Logged

Mary Chris has just asked this question again on another thread. Is there some official document with the rules clearly spelled out to which we can refer?

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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)

Jen L.
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 11:57am \| IP Logged

Well, I haven't found anything more "official" but read this excerpt from Maureen's site (conversation with a canon lawyer named Pete):

Pete,
Okay, one more . . . I forgot this one -- If Lenten abstinence begins Saturday at 4, does it end at 4 on Sunday. Therefore, shouldn't we have our dessert before dinner on Sunday in order to save our souls from tarnishment? There's gotta be a way to squeeze cake and ice cream in twice! Kids are soooo legalistic!
Maureen :)

> Okay, one more . . . I forgot this one -- If Lenten abstinence begins
> Saturday at 4, does it end at 4 on Sunday.

No. It's called canonical magic. It begins Saturday at 4pm and ends Sunday at midnight.

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JennGM
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 12:06pm \| IP Logged

I've looked, too. I see nothing that refers to 24 hours. There are two things that back up the "canonical magic" Pete refers to:

1) Read the rules of fasting. They include mention of 2 small meals and 1 main meal, reflecting a "day" from morning to evening.

2) As I mentioned before, our liturgy in both the Mass and Liturgy of the Hours makes Sundays and high feast days even longer than 24 hours! But regular days in the Liturgical year are treated with 24 hours starting at midnight and ending at midnight.

Who is starting to abstaining or fast on Thursday evenings?

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almamater
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 12:22pm \| IP Logged

Well, Sundays are not part of Lent. If you count from Ash Wednesday until the Vigil, you will have more than forty. As far as the fast, it can potentially be more relaxed on Sundays, but we usually stick to it. Sundays are always, even during Lent, recognized as the memorial of our Lord's resurrection.

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almamater
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 12:29pm \| IP Logged

Well, Sundays are not part of Lent. If you count from Ash Wednesday until the Vigil, you will have more than forty. As far as the fast, it can potentially be more relaxed on Sundays, but we usually stick to it. Sundays are always, even during Lent, recognized as the memorial of our Lord's resurrection.

By the way, today is Laetare Sunday, which is an easing of traditional strict lenten qualities. I have just written about it in my new blog, Soul of the Home

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Rachel May
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 3:03pm \| IP Logged

almamater wrote:

If you count from Ash Wednesday until the Vigil, you will have more than forty.

I belive it is counted from Ash Wed to the Triduum and excluding Sundays.

But that doesn't answer the question about fasting. As Jenn mentions no one talks about starting to fast or abstain on Thurs night which makes it seem like we only lengthen the day when it's for our convenience.

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Posted: March 26 2006 at 5:56pm \| IP Logged

Rachel May wrote:

I belive it is counted from Ash Wed to the Triduum and excluding Sundays

The feast of St. Joseph is a solemnity and therefore not a regular Lenten weekday.

I have seen articles referring to fasting in general on Fridays and the authors fasted from after dinner on Thursday until dinnertime Fri. I always thought that was the norm.

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JennGM
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 6:23pm \| IP Logged

momwise wrote:

Rachel May wrote:

I belive it is counted from Ash Wed to the Triduum and excluding Sundays

The feast of St. Joseph is a solemnity and therefore not a regular Lenten weekday.

The truth is, it's not really 40 days of Lent, no matter how you count. Rachel is correct. Solemnities of St. Joseph and Annunciation override the Lenten liturgy...but they still count as "Days" in Lent....

momwise wrote:

I have seen articles referring to fasting in general on Fridays and the authors fasted from after dinner on Thursday until dinnertime Fri. I always thought that was the norm.

So no fasting at dinner on Friday?

I've never heard of this practice before! I'd like to see some of those articles. The only anticipation I've ever seen is for Sundays and feast days...the feast is not celebrated only 24 hours, but 32 hours.

(My math is 24 hour day, plus from 4 pm to midnight the preceding evening.)

If Canon Law says "Friday" I think we don't need to read between the lines...it means Friday from midnight to midnight.

These links don't answer the question, but had some interesting points on fast and abstinence:

Fast and Abstinence

Canon Laws on Fast and Abstinence

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Jennifer G. Miller
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 7:28am \| IP Logged

JennGM wrote:

So no fasting at dinner on Friday?

I've never heard of this practice before! I'd like to see some of those articles

Oh I have no idea where to find them. It's just something I vaugely remember from reading; probably a magazine or internet. Anyway, they were just people writing about their fasting.

But I guess I did get the idea somewhere along the way that a light dinner on Friday night was part of a fasting day. Does everyone else skip dinner?

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Posted: March 27 2006 at 7:42am \| IP Logged

JennGM wrote:

So no fasting at dinner on Friday?

I think I misunderstood you. I never meant to say "no fasting at dinner." I guess I meant through dinner. I always took it to mean that.

Ahhhh...who's on first?

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Mary Chris
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 8:13am \| IP Logged

I was in the group of women Elizabeth refered to in her post. We had gathered to pray the Rosary at 9pm. The priest joined us. It was Ash Wednesday. I think the priest indicated that he was hungry. The hostess said something it's Ash Wednesday aren't were supposed to fast. The priest said the fast ends at sundown. So the hostess pulled out some small snacks, peanuts, oreos, pita and hummus.
I am going to try to go to the source and ask him about the fast ending at sundown.
I know all about the two small meals and one larger. Usually, I have a small breakfast, try to make lunch my bigger meal and have a light dinner. But I don't have a big bowl of ice cream or other food after sundown.
I talked to my mom about it and she said we celebrate the fast from midnight to midnight. of course she is no authority on the church but she knows more than I do. In our line of thinking, Ash Wednesday started at 12:01 and ended at midnight. Is it from the time you wake up and ends after dinner?
Going back and rereading I see Jenn is saying the same thing I am thinking.
Gwen we do not skip dinner on a day of fast we just eat a simple meal.

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MicheleQ
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 1:16pm \| IP Logged

I just checked with my son on this because I know he currently has a class dealing with these issues (he's in the seminary).

He told me that Ash Wednesday IS midnight to midnight UNLESS the Thursday following it is a solemnity (it wasn't). Solemnities and Sundays begin at 5:00 the day before and last through midnight of the next day. 5:00 is a general guideline - it's tied to when evening prayer begins - which is somewhat (though not exactly) tied to sundown.

The official answer to this can be found in the General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar:

Chapter I-a. Liturgical Days

I. The Liturgical Day in General

3. Each day is made holy through the liturgical celebrations of the people of God, especially through the eucharistic sacrifice and the divine office.

The liturgical day runs from midnight to midnight, but the observance of Sunday and solemnities begins with the evening of the preceding day.

II. Sunday

4. The Church celebrates the paschal mystery on the first day of the week, known as the Lord's Day or Sunday. This follows a tradition handed down from the apostles and having its origin from the day of Christ's resurrection. Thus Sunday must be ranked as the first holyday of all. [3>

5. Because of its special importance, the Sunday celebration gives way only to solemnities or feasts of the Lord. The Sundays of the seasons of Advent, Lent, and Easter, however, take precedence over all solemnities and feasts of the Lord. Solemnities occuring on these Sundays are observed on the Saturdays preceding.

6. By its nature, Sunday excludes any other celebration's being permanently assigned to that day, with these exceptions:

    a. Sunday within the octave of Christmas is the feast of the Holy Family;

    b. Sunday following 6 January is the feast of the Baptism of the Lord;

    c. Sunday after Pentecost is the solemnity of the Holy Trinity;

    d. the last Sunday in Ordinary Time is the solemnity of Christ the King.

7. In those places where the solemnities of Epiphany, Ascension, and Corpus Christi are not observed as holydays of obligation, they are assigned to a Sunday, which is then considered their proper day in calendar. Thus:

    a. Epiphany, to the Sunday falling between 2 January and 8 January;

    b. Ascension, to the Seventh Sunday of Easter;

    c. the solemnity of Corpus Christi, to the Sunday after Trinity Sunday.

III. Solemnities, Feasts, and Memorials

8. As it celebrates the mystery of Christ in yearly cycle, the Church also venerates with a particular love Mary, the Mother of God, and sets before the devotion of the faithful the memory of the martyrs and other saints. [4>

9. The saints of universal significance have celebrations obligatory throughout the entire Church. Other saints either are listed in the General Calendar for optional celebration or are left to the veneration of some particular Church, region, or religious family. [5>

10. According to their importance, celebrations are distinguished from each other and named as follows: solemnities, feasts, memorials.

11. Solemnities are counted as the principal days in the calendar and their observance begins with evening prayer I of the preceding day. Some also have their own vigil Mass for use when Mass is celebrated in the evening of the preceding day.

The celebration of Easter and Christmas, the two greatest solemnities, continues for eight days, with each octave governed by its own rules.

13. Feasts are celebrated within the limits of the natural day and accordingly do not have evening prayer I. Exceptions are feasts of the Lord that fall on a Sunday in Ordinary Time and in the Christmas season and that replace the Sunday office.

14. Memorials are either obligatory or optional. Their observance is integrated into the celebration of the occurring weekday in accord with the norms set forth in the General Instructions of the Roman Missal and the Liturgy of the Hours.

Obligatory memorials occurring on Lenten weekdays may only be celebrated as optional memorials.

Should more than one optional memorial fall on the same day, only one may be celebrated; the others are omitted.

15. On Saturdays in Ordinary Time when there is no obligatory memorial, an optional memorial of the Blessed Virgin Mary is allowed.

IV. Weekdays

16. The days following Sundays are called weekdays. They are celebrated in different ways according to the importance each one has.

    a. Ash Wednesday and the days of Holy Week, from Monday to Thursday inclusive, have precedence over all other celebrations.

    b. The weekdays of Advent from 17 December to 24 December inclusive and all the weekdays of Lent have precedence over obligatory memorials.

    c. All other weekdays give way to solemnities and feasts and are combined with memorials.

Make sense? For example, last Friday evening it was acceptable to eat meat in the evening since Sat. was a solemnity and if you celebrate Sundays and solemnities as days "off" from Lent (we do) you had a nice long weekend.

God bless!

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Elizabeth
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 1:24pm \| IP Logged

Michele,
Thank you and thank Timothy. This is exactly what we needed. Makes total sense and it's very clear.

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momwise
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 2:12pm \| IP Logged

Elizabeth wrote:

This is exactly what we needed

Yes thank you! And I've printed it out to stick inside one of my Liturgical year books so I'll have it forever.

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MicheleQ
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 2:31pm \| IP Logged

You can see the entire document at:
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5932

God bless!

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Posted: March 27 2006 at 4:13pm \| IP Logged

I have a question that puts us on a bit of a tangent. It is not related to Lenten regulations, but it is related to Michelle's helpful post on the liturgical calendar.

Last Saturday was the Feast of the Annunciation. We were blessed to attend the baptism Mass of our newest nephew that morning. In the homily, the priest pointed out that we were celebrating one of the the most important feasts of the entire liturgical year--that in some ways it is more important than Christmas, because it celebrates the real moment of the Incarnation, when God became man in Mary's womb.

As we were driving away from the baptism Mass, dh and I had a conversation about the feast. We are both stumped as to why the Feast of the Annunciation is not still a holy day of obligation. Do any of you know any reason why the bishops chose not to retain this most important feast as a holy day of obligation, when they dropped most of them off the calendar? When I ponder this feast, I find that I think it should take preeminence over many of the holy days of obligation that were retained. So why drop this one?

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