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Karen E.
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Elizabeth wrote:
I just read about Uranus and Cronus to my nearly-eight-year-old. My ten-year-old is hating this study and from the look on Stephen's face, he's pretty horrified too. Frankly, I'm not enthused.
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Whew, I'm glad we aren't the only ones! I started reading D'Aulaire to the girls last year, and they were both so sickened and repulsed by the first story that we stopped! I actually gave the book to a good friend who had been planning to buy it, as I didn't know when we'd ever get back to it.
I do want to introduce them to Greek myths more fully at some point, but for now, it's on hold for my girls (ages 13 and 10.) I'm not sure when/how I want to get back to it, so I'm interested in following this thread.
I just went back and read all the responses ... already plenty to follow here .... 
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JennGM
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I haven't seen D'Aulaire, so I can't comment on that. I agree with Marihalojen's approach in giving myths in a more attractive approach. I don't think the gruesome ones need to be introduced yet. I think the mythology is wonderful in parts. It's so integral in reading history and literature, but it also is a brilliant lesson in seeing how wonderful our Faith is. I remember reading the stuff and thinking how misguided and confused. Why would you worship gods that are so weak and sinful?
I didn't have Mythology until freshman year of high school, and we used Edith Hamilton's texts, which are probably dry, but do a good job of organizing the various mythology. I think there was a chart comparing the Greek to Roman, too.
I'm trying to remember the name of the book that we had growing up. It was no way complete, but I remember pouring over the lovely pictures and reading the stories, and I wasn't even 10 yet. If I remember I'll get back to you.
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BrendaPeter
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Not big D'Aulaire fans here either... But loved the Rosemary Sutcliff books!
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MacBeth wrote:
Yes, well, that's the story . I always think the conversion to Christianity must have been a relief  . |
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That's sort of the implicit point of many of the pagan stories, to me. Fathers DO eat children -- you see it in nature and in unredeemed man....not literal in the latter case, but figurative.
The Greeks were wonderful about putting psychological insights into vivid story form. That being said, it could easily be too much for a sensitive child. I would trust childrens' instincts on this kind of thing.
MacBeth wrote:
| And, yes, the Resurrection is just so magnificent...ah, but you need crucifixion to get there! |
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There is a sadness about the Greek stories -- an intense realization of the glory of being human and at the same time the deep flaw that diminishes and twists us. In some ways, it seemed that some of the best of the Greeks were calling for a Messiah and a resurrection without knowing they were doing that.
I think there is some virtue in getting acquainted with the myths before studying pagan history seriously in high school.... I was just reading something in Charlotte Mason's books where she advocated giving children the stories of the race's youth, when they are young, but there's time.... and parents can use discretion in how they approach it.
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guitarnan
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We had the same problem...ds hated mythology as a 5th-6th grader and so I gave up. Now he is devouring myths (at least it's not children!) but dd (9) is just so put off by the gross stories that she will not study them.
MacBeth's point is very important, though. It is almost impossible to fully understand the richness of Western literature without studying both ancient mythology and the Bible.
What about Nathaniel Hawthorne's versions (A Wonder Book and Tanglewood Tales)? I haven't read them in, well, decades... but perhaps they are less disgusting?
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MacBeth
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While I do love d'Auliaires', both for Greek and Norse (reprinted...have you seen them?), the illustrations are a bit graphic. I see from experience that my kids are less sensitive about these things than many kids. I still wonder why--did I desensitize them somehow? 
I was familiar with many myths as a child. My GA (great aunt  ) had a wonderful anthology, and read myths from all different cultures to me from an early age. When I was enrolled in a classical school at 13, I was familiar with the myths, and did quite well in English class. I thank my GA for that early exposure. 
That said, I think there are ways around the sensitivity issue. Many of the myths can be read independently from one another, and you can use your discretion as you pick and choose. I will agree that many of the stories of the titans are more grim than necessary for young ears, some of the stories are lovely, if sad. A quick list of those I would include (please forgive any spelling errors):
Midas and the Golden Touch
Daedalus and Icarus
The Labyrinth (unless the minotaur is a problem)
Pandora
Arachne
Persephone
Orpheus and Eurydice (Libby actually had to retell this story for her honors music class last week, as she was the only one familiar with the tale...since there were several kids whose teacher is a member of the Orpheus Chamber Group, one wonders why they never wondered about the name)
Atalantia
Paris/Helen
Some of Hercules
Any others that are mild enough for the young ones? I'd add Prometheus, but I think the whole liver thing is a bit  .
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MacBeth
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BTW, if you think the Greeks are bad, try Hindu mythology. EEeek! 
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marihalojen wrote:
And what about the odd bits in the stories of the saints? For instance, reading up on Saint Anthony's Feast Day tomorrow led me to the Golden Legend at Catholic Culture:
Therefore, Saint Anthony bent every effort to discover the whereabouts of this other hermit. And searching through the forests, he came first upon a hippocentaurus, half man and half horse, who told him to go to the right. Next he met an animal who was carrying some dates; the upper part of his body was that of a man, but he had the belly and feet of a goat. Anthony asked him what he was; and he answered that he was a satyr, that is, one of those creatures which the pagans mistook for wood-gods.
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Jennifer, this is a great question, and it's one I have been thinking about a good deal lately, as I am writing a story set in the early Christian period, and have decided to use mythological characters. My thought is that these saints lived on the cusp of pagan and Christian life, and many of the old gods and heroes were replaced by saints within traditional tales as peoples were Christianized. I would include these tales in a study of mythology-meets-Christ for older kids.
The other thought I had (and I lean this way in my writing, too) is that mythological creatures are metaphors in the stories of the saints. St. George and the Dragon comes to mind immediately. Was there a dragon, or was it a metaphorical manifestation of Satan? And a question for those of you who might read that type of story to your kids: How do you handle it? Do you tell them it's a myth (but the saint is real), or do you tell them it's a symbol? Or maybe that you just don't know... ?
Does this require a new thread? I would love to talk on this at NACHE or some other conference with a bunch of us in person. Can't you all move closer?
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JennGM
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MacBeth wrote:
| The other thought I had (and I lean this way in my writing, too) is that mythological creatures are metaphors in the stories of the saints. St. George and the Dragon comes to mind immediately. Was there a dragon, or was it a metaphorical manifestation of Satan? And a question for those of you who might read that type of story to your kids: How do you handle it? Do you tell them it's a myth (but the saint is real), or do you tell them it's a symbol? Or maybe that you just don't know... ? |
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I'm loving this discussion! I don't think there's one strict answer. St. Margaret and the dragon is another example.
The Golden Legend is the perfect example of many stories that we can't historically prove, but that wasn't their original point. Their point was to relate a story in the life of the saint with a lesson for those in medieval times. I don't think all elements in the story were upheld as true, but metaphorical lessons.
But, on the other hand, it seems that during Christ's time and the early Church there were more outward manifestations of the devil. There was much more awareness of the spiritual realm, so good and evil had more of a character and persona than today's age.
And the pagan connections are interwoven in so much of our Faith. Our Catholic missionaries have done a great job of baptizing customs into our Faith, Christianizing what they can. There is a large movement I see that separates the Catholic customs and finds the pagan origins and eschews them as bad because of the roots--and I think that's a shame and such a wrong approach! Christianity was not born in a vacuum (really, nothing is!). The Roman Empire was such a crucial part of Christ's death, spreading of the Faith. And the Romans were product of their time and culture, influenced by the Greeks, and so on, so on.
And one other point, because not many people were literate, symbolism plays such a large role in early history. So these symbols of Greek, Roman and Christian literature need to be identified and understood.
So I'm gabbing away...I'd love to hear or see the stories someday, MacBeth.
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marihalojen
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It is really fascinating discussion!
With Saints Margaret and George and their dragons, I don't have a problem at all of explaining that they are a symbol of the devil and that's backed up by the dragons/devils ending up dead in the stories. Good triumphs over bad very clearly.
But in the story of St Anthony and the hippocentarus and satyr these creatures help him find the other hermit! So if they are helping how can I say they are representations of the devil?
I usually pull out the fact that God is omnipresent - God is everywhere - in cases like these. Also with explaining the multiple gods of ancient cultures, just because they were an ancient culture doesn't mean God wasn't there...
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marihalojen wrote:
But in the story of St Anthony and the hippocentarus and satyr these creatures help him find the other hermit! So if they are helping how can I say they are representations of the devil?
I usually pull out the fact that God is omnipresent - God is everywhere - in cases like these. Also with explaining the multiple gods of ancient cultures, just because they were an ancient culture doesn't mean God wasn't there... |
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The dragons are just an example. I don't think they are all good vs. evil. Some can bring to good, cooperate with good. The St. Anthony example I'd have to dig deeper, but I wonder if it was used because he was studying Greek writins and the imagery was to show them that even studying the Greeks one can find God? Just theorizing...
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ALmom
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Elizabeth:
I personally have taken the approach that while I want my dc to have exposure to the myths in high school for many of the reasons related to symbolism in literature, I don't see a need to push it early, nor do I think they have to read everything there is out there. There are many things that children need to know eventually, that we try not too go too into so as not to skew their normal growth (ie we do not go into full details of birds and bees when our children are young - we answer questions that come up honestly as they come up without giving them more information than they really need and we don't necessarily tell them all even at high school - we discern the appropriate time and readiness and need of the child). Some children will have a distinct need to know at younger ages than others and some will want more detail than others. Parents are given the graces of Matrimony to discern these things for their own children - so we shouldn't feel like we have to jump on either bandwagon.
Now, I'm not going to tell another parent they are doing a disservice to their child by exposing them to myths. I figure the parent knows the readiness of the child. I do not want my children confusing good and bad, having their sensitivity destroyed by my overexposing them which is my concern with my children. It may not affect every child exactly the same way - but I know my own and just Know this is something not good for mine at this point. I would expect people to respect that God gives us as parents the discernment to say - No, not yet, this is not right for my child.
One of the reasons I was so hesitant to do Kolbe now is that back when I tried it the first time, there was so much mythologys and so many things, I didn't think were healthy for my children. Now there are options and we opt for the more traditional stuff in the younger grades or substitute CHC materials or other reading as I see fit when we use it. I still do skip some of the more risque materials even in the high school years. That is my responsibility as a parent - to discern what is appropriate for my children with my dh. Some things I don't mind so much if they pick up on their own and read and I might say - hey lets discuss that - BUT I would not feel right about assigning it. Mythology is one of those things for me. We discuss it some, obviously get into it some at some point in order to read some of the Greek and Roman Literature and it certainly comes up in modern literature where we may discuss the outline of the story (then it is up to them if they want to go dig more in the actual mythology). There is so much out there and only so much time. I priortize towards what fits with our Christian values (which certainly includes some of the the great non-Christian literature with universal themes)and other things come in as it helps us to understand better.
I'm not saying this very well, but hope this helps. I look at the Greeks as advocates of reason and philosophy and it helps to understand the providence of God when you see how all this fits into a part of the whole and where there are some questionable ideas - well it was pre - Christian. However I don't have to immerse myself in pre-Christian ideas and pick the most bizzare tales to get a sense of this. However, we also discuss various works and some of these allusions do need an explanation - so if we are reading something that is making allusions to some of these tales we certainly learn the story whether it is a retelling by me or a summarized version or a more detailed version all depends on time constraints, readiness of the children, extent to which the tale is disturbing. I also want to have time for the early Jewish and Roman history and lit. I guess I could never be considered a true classicist.
When we are reading literature, we can casually relate a story of the Greek myth. My children are fine with myths once they are firmly established in the truth of the faith and have more of an ability to reason and analyze. A 9 yo isn't picking up most of the symbols on a conscious level and I think this can be confusing.
My 13 yo son and older have read some myths. My other children have not, though they probably hear some summarized version from the siblings. That is plenty for them. If they ask, then we will answer questions, otherwise it might not come up until they read something referencing a myth in some other lit. At that point we may take a little rabbit trail - or by high school when we do RC history, I grab the material for all ages but have my high schooler read these rather quickly for background. I do not want my youngers reading this and we substituted other things for history for them. My 13 yo son reads what interests him and lets the others go and I don't push.
Oh well, I'm blabbing and my dh is home.
Janet
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mary
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MacBeth wrote:
While I do love d'Auliaires', both for Greek and Norse (reprinted...have you seen them?), the illustrations are a bit graphic. I see from experience that my kids are less sensitive about these things than many kids. I still wonder why--did I desensitize them somehow?
I was familiar with many myths as a child. My GA (great aunt ) had a wonderful anthology, and read myths from all different cultures to me from an early age. When I was enrolled in a classical school at 13, I was familiar with the myths, and did quite well in English class. I thank my GA for that early exposure.
That said, I think there are ways around the sensitivity issue. Many of the myths can be read independently from one another, and you can use your discretion as you pick and choose. I will agree that many of the stories of the titans are more grim than necessary for young ears, some of the stories are lovely, if sad. A quick list of those I would include (please forgive any spelling errors):
Midas and the Golden Touch
Daedalus and Icarus
The Labyrinth (unless the minotaur is a problem)
Pandora
Arachne
Persephone
Orpheus and Eurydice (Libby actually had to retell this story for her honors music class last week, as she was the only one familiar with the tale...since there were several kids whose teacher is a member of the Orpheus Chamber Group, one wonders why they never wondered about the name)
Atalantia
Paris/Helen
Some of Hercules
Any others that are mild enough for the young ones? I'd add Prometheus, but I think the whole liver thing is a bit .
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these are the stories i have given to my children (who are younger than yours, elizabeth.) they loved listening to the jim weiss greek myth audio cd's over and over. i don't think any of the stores were overly gruesome.
macbeth, i wonder if your children are less sensitive about literature but more sensitive about nature?
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rivendellmom
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Elizabeth,
We finished Greek Myths this week and started Norse Myths yesterday. My daughter refused to listen after the first story of Greek Myths, she is only 8 so I told her she didn't have to listen anymore. My boys are LOTR/Narnia fans and they are grossed out by some of the stories but are always looking to see where Tolkein or Lewis came up with a character. I think you should get the Jim Weiss cd or another book version if you want your daughter to have been exposed to them, the D'Aulaire versions are a bit intense.
Just yesterday in Norse Myths- a creature was born out of someones arm pit. Eleven and thirteen year old boys find the both hysterical and interesting. Eight year old girls and their Mom- not so much. Luckily I got to read Mr. Poppers Penguins to get all those images out of my head!
Jen
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guitarnan
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MacBeth,
Say the word and I'll drive on up! (Not in blizzards, though!)
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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MacBeth
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mary wrote:
| macbeth, i wonder if your children are less sensitive about literature but more sensitive about nature? |
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Sometimes  . Annika has always loved the Greek myths, but broke down in tears when the dog died in Island of the Blue Dolphins. 
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MacBeth
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marihalojen wrote:
But in the story of St Anthony and the hippocentarus and satyr these creatures help him find the other hermit! So if they are helping how can I say they are representations of the devil?
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So perhaps they are manifestations of good--like angels? Angels and the evangelists are often depicted in fanciful (mythological?) terms. St. Mark as a winged lion has always amused my imagination. And isn't the unicorn a symbol of Christ?
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MacBeth
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guitarnan wrote:
MacBeth,
Say the word and I'll drive on up! (Not in blizzards, though!)
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Blizzards? Ha! I hear you have to go to Texas or Malibu for that...
This brings about our annual "should we plan a conference or get-together?" conversation. Thinking.
(Of course, you are welcome any time, if you don't mind a cold floor and microwaved meal. )
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JennGM
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MacBeth wrote:
marihalojen wrote:
But in the story of St Anthony and the hippocentarus and satyr these creatures help him find the other hermit! So if they are helping how can I say they are representations of the devil?
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So perhaps they are manifestations of good--like angels? Angels and the evangelists are often depicted in fanciful (mythological?) terms. St. Mark as a winged lion has always amused my imagination. And isn't the unicorn a symbol of Christ? |
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All right, I had to pull out the symbols books to look up some of these questions.
Unicorn, yes, symbol of Jesus and His Incarnation.
Centaur, half man, half horse. In pagan terms personify the evil passions, with a secondary meaning made to symbolize the two fold nature of Christ.
Another example of use of Greek myths are the sibyls that are portrayed in art, the Sistine Chapel immediately comes to mind.
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lamamaloca
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Quote:
| One of the reasons I was so hesitant to do Kolbe now is that back when I tried it the first time, there was so much mythologys and so many things, I didn't think were healthy for my children. Now there are options and we opt for the more traditional stuff in the younger grades or substitute CHC materials or other reading as I see fit when we use it. |
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This is my concern as my husband and I try to plan for the kids' schooling. My husband believes very strongly in a classical curriculum. I just don't see how focusing on things like Greek mythology or Ancient history is particularly beneficial to an elementary aged child. They can get that later if necessary, can't they? I like the changes that Kolbe is making, so that we'd be able to use more appropriate things with the youngers and focus on the Classical content as the children get older.
Becky
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4Real Forums : Living Literature
Topic: Greek Myths
