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JSchaaf
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| Posted: April 28 2005 at 11:28pm | IP Logged
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I've just now had the chance to read through this thread-thank you everyone for your thoughts and ideas! I have a question on the practical aspects of CE and CM...DH and I read TWTM when we first started out and decided that was the way to go. (after ALOT of reading and research). Since then, however, I have "found" CM. He thinks it's a bit "fluffy". Is it possible to follow the plan outlined in TWTM using Miss Mason's methods?
Thanks!
Jennifer
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: April 29 2005 at 7:44am | IP Logged
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Willa,
I love how you view classical education and the incorporation of CM and unschooling into the picture. Thank you for sharing it.
I know you've mentioned the Ignatius methods regarding Classical Education before, but I've never picked up on it the same way before. My dh is particularly attracted to CE like Jennifer's dh. He hasn't objected to me deviating a bit, but perhaps between your description of why you blend different styles and some research into Catholic Ignatius methods of CE we can come to a place that even more closely matches where we originally wanted to go. Can you direct me to some resources to discovering more about an Ignation Classical Education perspective?
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Willa
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| Posted: May 02 2005 at 5:44am | IP Logged
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Richelle,
The book that has been most helpful to me through the years is "Implementation of Ignatian Education in the Home" -- by Francis Crotty, published by Kolbe Academy. I've read it again and again HOWEVER not because of its literary style  It's sort of an outline, very condensed, and published in booklet form. We discussed it a few times on CCE and there are some posts in the archives there.
As a result of reading that one, I acquired a couple of books, one called "Thomas Aquinas and Education" by Francis Donahue, one called I think Jesuit Principles of Education in Practice by Francis Donnelly. They aren't easy reads either, and they are OOP.
So basically, I would say that THE homeschooling book on Ignatian Education hasn't really been written. It's sort of been bits and pieces scavenged from different places, and "reasoning" from encyclicals on the parental role in education, etc. DH is more of an unschooler than I am, thus seeming to contradict the general pattern of DHs. He thinks self-direction increases academic competence rather than the opposite and likes to cite this Stanford article.
http://www.vegsource.com/articles/homeschooling.htm
So he influences me to think outside the scope and sequence box and towards a wider definition of what education is about.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Willa
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| Posted: May 02 2005 at 5:57am | IP Logged
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Jennifer,
Perhaps the article I linked to at the beginning of this thread would help a bit. I personally don't see any reason why you couldn't use CM "methods" with a TWTM "scope and sequence". Some of their curriculum choices and methods are already CM-friendly and some could be adapted.
When I was in San Francisco with my infant in the hospital and didn't have much time to spend with the older kids, I used TWTM book choices (it had just come out) and kept doing the CM stuff I had been doing like narrations, copywork, etc., using some of TWTM's ideas to "organize" the kids' work. It worked pretty well.
CM isn't necessarily "fluffy" -- I think of the structured Ambleside form
http://www.amblesideonline.org/
but I can see how to some people, the 4 year cycles of TWTM would seem more logical and easier to plan out.
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AMDG
Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Natalia
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What is CCE? Is it a yahoo group?
Natalia
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tovlo4801
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Willa,
Thank you so much for all the resources!
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cathhomeschool
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| Posted: May 03 2005 at 7:28am | IP Logged
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Yes, CCE is the Catholic Classical Education yahoo group. There are some great discussions there! The group gets a lot of mail (like CCM), so I couldn't keep up, but learned a LOT while there. I still have messages saved from 4 years ago and refer to them as needed. Willa is a moderator there.
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Janette (4 boys - 22, 21, 15, 14)
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Willa
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| Posted: May 15 2005 at 7:33pm | IP Logged
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Richelle and others,
One other book I am reading now is "Climbing Parnassus" by Tracy Lee Simmons. The theme of the book is that education is cultural heritage plus a commitment to the excellent. I got turned off in the first chapter when he talked about elitism, and scaling the heights of Parnassus not being for everyone, because of my disabled son that I mentioned earlier in the thread. But later on he goes on to refine the "elite" idea and says that the climb is beneficial for everyone, though different people will get to different heights.
Anyway, it is an interesting book with a lot of good quotes that I will try to type out sometimes; they reminded me of some of the things Charlotte Mason says about education.
At this point Simmons' "vision" of what education is about is outright compatible to the unschooling philosophy. But that's not the final word by any means -- I am still reading and trying to process.
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Willa
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tovlo4801
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| Posted: May 18 2005 at 9:38am | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
| One other book I am reading now is "Climbing Parnassus" by Tracy Lee Simmons. |
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Thanks for mentioning this. I looked it up at Amazon and put it on hold at my library. I am curious to see what you think when you've gotten all the way through.
WJFR wrote:
| At this point Simmons' "vision" of what education is about is outright compatible to the unschooling philosophy. |
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Did you mean that it is compatible or that it is incompatible? From the review I read and the way you worded this I would think you meant incompatible, but I'm actually hoping that you truly did mean compatible.  (hopeful smile)
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Willa
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tovlo4801 wrote:
Did you mean that it is compatible or that it is incompatible? From the review I read and the way you worded this I would think you meant incompatible, but I'm actually hoping that you truly did mean compatible. (hopeful smile) |
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Umm, I did mean to say incompatible. His whole view of education indeed seems to be geared to the mountain-climbing metaphor -- it's a steep climb, kids won't always enjoy it (he says delight is a dividend, and mentioned kids writing Greek and Latin verse in their leisure hours, but pleasure is not the main objective), the air gets thin at the top, and only a few people will scale the heights. I can't see how this could possibly tie in with an unschooling philosophy, it sounds almost diametrically opposed, and I'm not sure where I'd stand if I had to choose one view over another. I honestly think I'd plunk for the unschooling because I can't really imagine educating at that level of intensity in our home.
I'm in the middle of the book right now -- I liked the first part the best because of some of the quotes on what a liberal education IS -- but right now slogging through the founding fathers, it is seeming a bit sterile and reptitious to me. It almost seems to me that he lays out what education meant to the ancients and then proceeded to miss the point. I think the Greeks excelled at climbing the mountain because they loved the climb and found the air bracing and exhilarating, and the view grand. Sure I suppose there is toil involved too, but the toil was for the sake of the goal, not for the sake of the toil being "good for you."
I'll let you know if my thoughts change as I get towards the end of the book. It's possible I'm misrepresenting him a bit because I'm using the book to think through some of the things I'm trying to work out (among other things, the "excellence" questions you brought up in the other thread, Richelle.
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Willa
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Willa
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| Posted: May 18 2005 at 8:35pm | IP Logged
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WJFR wrote:
I honestly think I'd plunk for the unschooling because I can't really imagine educating at that level of intensity in our home.
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I didn't say that right. Obviously I'd do anything no matter how difficult if I was truly convinced it was by far the best thing. But I'm not altogether convinced at this point. With unschooling, I would have the hope of influencing my children and mentoring them towards what I thought of as "good, worthy, beautiful" and perhaps they would go farther than I had.... in fact, they ARE doing so in different ways.
I think the home school has a different dynamic and that even in the classical schools of ancient and medieval times, the "enculturation" or "environment" aspects played a bigger part than he is presently mentioning in the book. In other words, Athenian society was so completely geared towards philosophy and the development of the arts and sciences; up till recently, education was considered a privilege and Latin and Greek were necessary to higher education.
The etymology of "school" meant "leisure, discussion" as well as place of instruction and I guess that is what I am trying to say. School isn't a factory.
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Willa
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