| Author | |
JSchaaf
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 22 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 753
|
| Posted: April 12 2005 at 4:03pm | IP Logged
|
 |
|
I am NOT trying to stir up trouble-but-last night I wandered over to the KIC website and read the article about why using the Charlotte Mason method was anti-Catholic. Just not neutral, but anti-Catholic. I don't have the article in front of me to quote from, but if you are familar with it can you help me to understand the objections (and refute them?)? First it seems like CM is not to be used because Miss Mason was an unmarried Anglican with no children. Then it goes into different educational philosophies, which, frankly, I don't know alot about. There is also something in there about Miss Mason's admiration of Darwin and his theory of evolution. So if one thing isn't in agreement with the Church (ie evolution), then the whole method is to be discarded? Please help me to understand this. I'm part of a conservative Catholic homeschool group locally and we are having our "curriculum night" soon, where we talk about what methods/curricula we use and I want to be prepared. Thanks
Jennifer
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: April 12 2005 at 4:56pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Dear Jennifer,
Here is my favorite response to the KIC position, written by Willa Ryan. Does this answer your concerns, or is there more you'd like to see discussed?
Here is Willa's response:
I've heard similar comments in the past, and in fact I think you
might find some threads in the archives of CCM on this subject. I
personally don't find the evidence I've heard very convincing. I
don't have the book you mention, but I have read through most of
Charlotte Mason's books at one time or another. Here are some
thoughts:
Charlotte Mason's style is not always easily understood by those of
us who live in this century and don't have a good sense of the
context of her times. When faced with a popular philosophy which
has had a heavy influence on the people of her time, her strategy is
to depict the philosophy quite sympathetically, listing points of
agreement and almost "making a case" for the opposing side, before
going into detail about her points of difference. This dialectic
technique was quite common in previous centuries -- cf Socrates and
St Thomas Aquinas.
For example, in Parents and Education, she writes as she is summing
up the impact Rousseau has had upon parents of her time: "Rousseau
succeeded, as he deserved to succeed, in awaking many parents to the
binding character, the vast range, the profound seriousness of
parental obligations. He failed, and deserved to fail, as he
offered his own crude conceits by way of an educational code." Her
whole section on Rousseau is in this tone. You can find it at the
Ambleside website, in the first section of Volume 2 of her works.
Ambleside Online
There is nothing wrong with finding points of agreement even with
someone in ideological opposition to oneself, as Charlotte Mason does
throughout her books. In fact, it is an excellent strategy and
discipline. That is basically what we ourselves are to do when we
are sorting through Charlotte Mason's works, or the works of anyone
in our imperfect world. I think that when people "rumble" about
CM's "atheism", or "humanism", or "anti-Catholicism" they are often
taking a few phrases of her books out of context, much as some
fundamentalists take Catholic writings out of context to "prove" that
we worship Mary or whatever. It would be better to start as CM
does, by fairly pinpointing the *real* areas of difference (assuming
there are any) rather than setting up a straw man to beat down.
Of course Charlotte Mason's books are not to be taken as gospel or
the Magisterium, and of course she did not intend them that way. She
meant them to be read thoughtfully and critically by fellow educators
and intelligent, sincere parents of her time. I think it was CS
Lewis who said that every century and era has its blind spots and
over-emphases on certain ideas; for this reason it can be very
beneficial to read the works of past ages, because we don't
necessarily share the same blind spots and are more likely to be able
to read discerningly and sort out universal truth from temporal
confusion and error.
Rousseau is still with us, I believe -- we just aren't as conscious
of his shadow nowadays as CM was back then. So I think that what
she writes about him and about other educational philosophers of her
time is valuable source material and can shed some light on some of
the issues we deal with even a century or so later. However, it is
important to read historical material in context and not "project"
our own present struggles and conflicts onto it -- I think perhaps
some of CM's critics do a little of this, or perhaps, hold her to an
impossibly high standard of infallibility that few of us could
achieve ourselves even informed by the mind of our Church.
I hope this helps a little. Again personally, I find a lot in CM's
writings that is wise and practical, a little that seems sort of
timebound and less applicable, and very little indeed that I would
put a red flag next to, meaning that it is unequivocally harmful. I
could see where some of her ideas, like "children are born neither
good or evil" could be misunderstood and misapplied, and seem to ally
her with secular humanism, but I take that to be in context of
opposition to the Calvinist conception that children are born
corrupt with no goodness, rather than weakened and compromised by
original sin but free from actual personal sin. cf ccc 405 "Although
it is proper to each individual, original sin does not have the
character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a
deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has
not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers
proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of
death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called
concupiscence."
__________________
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
jdostalik
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 15 2005
Location: Texas
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2935
|
| Posted: April 12 2005 at 5:43pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm a bit daft tonight but what is KIC??
__________________
God Bless,
Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: April 12 2005 at 8:12pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
KIC is Keeping it Catholic, a yahoogroup and website whose missions are to identify anti-Catholic products and practices.The list generates much conversation and some confusion.
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Victoria in AZ
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 16 2005
Location: Arizona
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 672
|
| Posted: April 12 2005 at 9:29pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Jennifer,
I'm glad you brought up this question. Many years ago I was a bit scared away from CM by the KIC website. What a blessing CM ideas have been for my family. Personally I have never come across anti-Catholic ideas in our CM homeschool.
You are wise to be prepared for questions. Good luck on curriculum night.
__________________
Your sister in Christ,
Victoria in AZ
dh Mike 24 yrs; ds Kyle 18; dd Katie 12; and one funny pug
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Kathryn UK
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: England
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 924
|
| Posted: April 13 2005 at 12:07pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
I'm working on a webpage for the Mater Amabilis site about some of this issues, which I hope will one day get finished  . In the meantime I'd like to add one important point to Willa's comments.
The KIC website is generally very against any attempt to "Catholicise" non-Catholic materials or methods. When it comes to Charlotte Mason, I think they suffer from a fundamental misundertanding. Those of us who use CM's ideas in our homeschools are not attempting to Catholicise a non-Catholic method of education. We are giving our children a truly Catholic education, helped by the use of CM's ideas. The CM method adapts to Catholic homeschooling, rather than the other way around. It is not necessary to compromise our Catholicism in any way in order to educate our children along CM lines.
__________________
Kathryn
Dh Michael,  Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06)  (11/07)
The Bookworm
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
JSchaaf
Forum All-Star
Joined: Feb 22 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 753
|
| Posted: April 13 2005 at 12:30pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Thank you all! Yes, Elizabeth-Willa's response did answer the questions I had. If I have a discussion with anyone about why I use CM's methods I don't think it'll go that deep but I wanted to be prepared! Kathryn-your reply was just what I needed to hear-that we aren't attempting to Catholicize Charlotte Mason, but are incorporating the best of Charlotte Mason into our ALREADY Catholic homeschools. I have only been receiving messages from KIC for a few days-I wanted to catch the CM discussion-but I think I will unsub from there. Past messages aren't available to list members, and now the talk has turned to the anti-Catholic teachings of Maria Montessori. (??) Just from the few days I've been getting messages from them, I have found the group to be extremely negative, looking always to point out the bad and never looking to highlight the positive. If anyone here is an active member of the KIC list I apologize if I've offended you. Just my opinion!
Jennifer
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Elizabeth
Founder
Real Learning
Joined: Jan 20 2005
Location: Virginia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5595
|
| Posted: April 16 2005 at 7:58pm | IP Logged
|
|
|
Jennifer,
Here are some great quotes unearthed by Willa and Cindy that really speak to the heart of the matter:
The Central Point of Catholic Education
By Pope John Paul II
Implicit throughout... terms of reference for the Catholic school is the imperative of Christian commitment on the part of it's teachers. The Catholic school "must be a community whose aim is the transmission of values for living. Its work is seen as promoting a faith relationship with Christ in whom all values find fulfillment. But faith is principally assimilated through contact with people whose daily life bears witness to it."
In reflecting on the value of Catholic schools and the importance of Catholic teachers and educators, it is necessary to stress the central point of a Catholic education itself. Catholic education is above all a question of communicating Christ, of helping to form Christ in the lives of others. Those who have been baptized must be trained to live the newness of Christian life in justice and in the holiness of truth. The cause of Catholic education is the cause of Jesus Christ and of his gospel at the service of man.
Nor must we ignore the integrity of the catechetical message as taught: "The person who becomes a disciple of Christ has the right to receive the 'word of faith' (Rom 10:8) Not in mutilated, falsified, or diminished form but whole and entire... Thus no true catechist can lawfully, on his own initiative, make a selection of what he considers unimportant so as to teach the one and reject the other... The method in language used must truly be means for communicating the whole and not just part of "the paths of life" (Acts 2:22, quoting Ps 16:11).
Prayers and Devotions 365 Daily Meditations
Edited by Bishop Peter Canisius
(From Insegnamenti di Giovanni Paolo II 1, June 1982 Vol. 2 pp. 2055-6)
This is from Pius XI, Divini Illius Magistri -- he remarks that Catholics have liberty to use vernacular literature and even the methods of modern teachers, as long as a discerning process is going on. This has been the tradition of our Church ever since St Paul's time. Pope Pius does also caution care and discretion and we must be prudent.
87. In such a school moreover, the study of the vernacular and of classical literature will do no damage to moral virtue. There the Christian teacher will imitate the bee, which takes the choicest part of the flower and leaves the rest, as St. Basil teaches in his discourse to youths on the study of the classics.[51] Nor will this necessary caution, suggested also by the pagan Quintilian,[52] in any way hinder the Christian teacher from gathering and turning to profit, whatever there is of real worth in the systems and methods of our modern times, mindful of the Apostle's advice: "Prove all things: hold fast that which is good."[53] Hence in accepting the new, he will not hastily abandon the old, which the experience of centuries has found expedient and profitable
link
__________________
Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
Leonie
Forum All-Star
Joined: Jan 28 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2831
|
| Posted: April 23 2005 at 1:45am | IP Logged
|
|
|
I also like this quote on education, and Elizabeth has encouraged me to post it here.
This is a reminder, to me, that Catholic formation is not only about books and curricula but also about relationship and example.
Along these lines, perhaps a quote from St John Bosco might also be appropriate. IOW, sharing ideas on Catbolic formation that do fit with CM and not with reliance on Catholic texts.
"...programs of instruction, rules, methods, courses, and organization... [No]... it is the teacher who makes the school, not the program of studies to be followed. And the teacher makes the school because teaching is a vital process. Hence it is the spirit, the soul, of the teacher that counts the most in the transmission of the social inheritance from generation to generation..."
Fr Franz de Hovre, "Catholicism in Education", New York, Benzinger Brothers, 1934, p10
Leonie in Sydney
|
| Back to Top |
|
| |
|
|
4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: KIC and Charlotte Mason
