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BrendaPeter
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On the Latin-Centered Curriculum thread, the progymnasmata (classical method for teaching writing) was mentioned.
I cut & pasted some info from one of the Classical Writing Core Books that explains the difference between classical writing vs. modern writing as well as progymnasmata.
As I have very little experience in the writing arena, any comments on the following will be greatly appreciated:
Classical vs. Modern Writing Pedagogy
Parents and students should note that Classical Writing differs dramatically from typical modern writing programs. With modern methods, only naturally gifted people learn to write with eloquence and persuasion. A lack of critical thinking about meaningful content, a
lack of precision and flexibility in the use of words and sentences, a lack of attention to the fitting organization and content of a composition for a given audience, and an abominable lack of style permeate most modern writing programs. In short, modern writing has
radically “dumbed down” the rich, classical heritage of true, beautiful, good and persuasive writing.
In modern writing pedagogy, where “creativity” and “originality” are of the utmost importance, the classical method is thought to hamper student creativity in writing. It is thought to be far too heavy on theory (“stifling rules and regulations”) and far too rooted in imitation (“slavish copying”). Just the opposite is true. Why? To find out, we must try
to see how all the ancients, including the early Christians, saw the world in a very different
way. The ancients and early Christians understood that great writing, like any great art, was not something transient, but an approach to eternal ideals. Eternal virtues such as truth, beauty, and goodness exist, and it is the purpose of art to approach them. Great writing is great because it reaches for and approaches these ideals. Practically, the reason we study great writing is because it works. We do not want to
reinvent the wheel. The basic classical premise in any art, is that man in his creativity is trying to imitate
creation, the ultimate product of divine creativity. From studies of creation, the ancient Greeks discerned that the world is rationally ordered, that it works according to fixed laws, principles and forms. The aim of Art, including the art of writing, was the imitation of persisting objective forms, an emulation of that which is permanent and ordered. The art of rhetoric was particularly concerned with the ideal -- with what “ought to be” -- with the virtues of truth, beauty and goodness. Hence the chief purpose of writing is to communicate those virtues. For the Church Fathers, it was no different. Their writing sought to communicate God’s truth, beauty and goodness. Truth does not change with the passing of many generations of men; “originality” and “creativity” therefore must take a back seat. Truth, which is rooted in the Creator, is not something we make up to suit our own preferences. There are universal standards to which it conforms. The same goes for goodness and beauty, and for all virtue. New and different ways of teaching and practicing the art of writing are not to be commended simply because
they are new and different. Rather, they must be judged on the basis of their conformity to divine principles of order as well as on the basis of the character of the writers they turn out.
The Progymnasmata
Over the centuries, classical teachers built up a series of “preliminary exercises” in rhetorical
composition. These classical Greek progymnasmata provide the central core around which Classical Writing is organized. The progymnasmata are a sequenced series of writing patterns or outlines, which show how
to put thoughts together and arrange them for a given rhetorical purpose. They begin, forthe youngest student, with the simple retelling of fables and short narrative stories. From there, the student gradually moves on to exercises in simple explanation and persuasion. Each exercise features a fixed outline and carefully specified subject matter. The structure
of the sequence prevents much of the frustration and “writer’s block” which is so common in a child taught by modern, unstructured, “creative” methods. Finally, the most advanced exercises of the progymnasmata combine elements of the earlier exercises to create increasingly complex, effective compositions. The beauty of the progymnasmata is that they teach the virtues of writing carefully and systematically, all the while prompting the student to deal with challenging issues of thought and expression. As he matures in skill, confidence, and ability to think, the student is given more and more freedom to develop his own individual style and preferences in argument and organization. By the time he has reached the most advanced progymnasmata, he has developed good writing habits, has learned a variety of techniques, persuasive, expository and creative, and is given the freedom to compose his own original work.
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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mumofsix
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Brenda, I have not read the recently published new book about Classical Education, but I do have a classical education, and I find myself disagreeing fundamentally with the above interesting quote.
I will be very interested in other replies, but two things stand out for me. The ancient writers who presumably are models for this system of writing instruction were all astonishing originals. Whilst form is important, so is its imaginative manipulation and so is voice, which even very young children can learn to express very early on. I might assign a child a re-telling of a fable as a writing exercise, but I would leave a window open for the child's own creativity, originality, voice, what you will, by suggesting a subversive twist. For example, re-tell "Little Red Riding Hood" but let the Grandma get the wolf, that sort of thing, or re-tell the story of the Three Little Pigs from the wolf's point of view. Make him an anti-hero. Or if the child has a better idea, hooray. (Make up a fable about you and your big brother in which you win, triumphing against all the odds. What little boy could resist?  )
I do value a classical education, but to me it means learning Latin and Greek, yes, and having an understanding of ancient history, but also reading widely in literature down the ages and learning to write well with all the background of our subversive times to draw on. I don't think ignoring the way texts have been manipulated in modern times and stolidly imitating the ancients is the way Cicero would do things if he were alive today. I think he would be fascinated, for example, by all the literary conceits of the twentieth century novel, or by the weaselly way some of our politicians massage the truth - though there might be some deja vu there!
I think "The Writer's Jungle" by Julie Bogart would be the best accompaniment to a classical education in the writing department, especially if you take Julie's admirable suggestion to teach grammar via foreign language study, choosing Latin and Greek!
Jane.
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Willa
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mumofsix wrote:
| I might assign a child a re-telling of a fable as a writing exercise, but I would leave a window open for the child's own creativity, originality, voice, what you will, by suggesting a subversive twist. For example, re-tell "Little Red Riding Hood" but let the Grandma get the wolf, that sort of thing, or re-tell the story of the Three Little Pigs from the wolf's point of view. |
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Jane,
My younger boys would have loved to hear this. When we were trying to use CW: Aesop a few years back, they first did straight narrations of fables (very good ones) and then I guess they got bored, because they started doing satires and parodies just as you suggest! I was a bit uncomfortable about it, but probably shouldn't have been!
Brenda,
I have mixed feelings about the progym. I absolutely LOVE the concept -- what's more, it really fleshed out Charlotte Mason's idea of narration to me especially in how it would look in the upper grades. CM says a little about how older students were supposed to be able to outline, compare and contrast, put poetry into prose and vice versa. The progymnasmata covers these steps in much more detail. My oldest son has given me excellent feedback on the exercises he did using the method -- it was just specific enough for his systematic mind and still left enough room for his imagination to have free play. He thinks it really helped his writing. My second son and my daughter also enjoyed doing a few of the retellings and did a good job on them.
This being said, it did not completely work for me. No writing program has, so far. When I used CW strictly, it was a bit too formal for my kids -- we did better just trying a few of the exercises in a playful spirit rather than going through the grammar analysis and copywork and formal written narration and the whole bit -- that was a de-motivator for them.
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Willa
hsing boys ages 11, 14, almost 18 (+ 4 homeschool grads ages 20 to 27)
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Kelly
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No one writing program has worked for all my children, across the board, either. We've gleaned elements from different programs, and probably need to glean a few more as I've become lamentably lax with the younger set! However, we have used the progymnasmata approach very successfully with one of my dds. She is doing progym thru Regina Coeli and likes it. She is an organized little being (the type that lays out her clothes at night  ) and the systematic approach of progym really appeals to her. This style of teaching would not work with certain other of my more free-wheeling children!
Teaching grammar through foreign-language study has always been my mantra. I agree with Jane that using Latin or Greek to learn grammar is the ne plus ultra approach. And love the idea of the counterblaste fable rewrite! I may have to suggest that to my dd and see what she does with the idea 
Kelly in FL
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: June 15 2006 at 8:34pm | IP Logged
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Hi Jane,
Thank you so much for your response.
mumofsix wrote:
| Brenda, I have not read the recently published new book about Classical Education, but I do have a classical education, and I find myself disagreeing fundamentally with the above interesting quote. |
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Did your education include the progymnasmata?
mumofsix wrote:
| (Make up a fable about you and your big brother in which you win, triumphing against all the odds. What little boy could resist? ) |
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Mine! You know - the one with the pencil allergy !
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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BrendaPeter
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| Posted: June 15 2006 at 8:38pm | IP Logged
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Kelly wrote:
Teaching grammar through foreign-language study has always been my mantra. I agree with Jane that using Latin or Greek to learn grammar is the ne plus ultra approach. |
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Hi Kelly,
I would love to know more about the mechanics of this. Do you teach Latin (for instance) & then go into English grammar as it comes up? Does that mean that mom has to actually be pretty solid in English grammar  ? Oh boy...
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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Anne Marie M
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 2:44pm | IP Logged
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Hi all!
I'm catching up on posts after being on vacation. I'd love to hear from more people who are using the progym - especially those who have found that it helps their kids!
Also, Brenda, we're doing a lot of explaining English grammar as it comes up in the Latin - direct objects, for example. A book like English Grammar for Students of Latin can be a good help here.
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andibc
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| Posted: June 22 2006 at 4:28pm | IP Logged
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The quote on the progymnasmata does not, imo, reflect what the exercises are really like.
mumofsix wrote:
| re-tell "Little Red Riding Hood" but let the Grandma get the wolf, that sort of thing. |
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You find those types of suggested assignments in Classical Writing and D'Angelos book by a similar title, but for high school/college. I don't have the progym. material in front of me, but the assignments do provide all kinds of twists and turns in thinking and writing. Good stuff.
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BrendaPeter
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andibc wrote:
The quote on the progymnasmata does not, imo, reflect what the exercises are really like.
mumofsix wrote:
| re-tell "Little Red Riding Hood" but let the Grandma get the wolf, that sort of thing. |
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You find those types of suggested assignments in Classical Writing and D'Angelos book by a similar title, but for high school/college. I don't have the progym. material in front of me, but the assignments do provide all kinds of twists and turns in thinking and writing. Good stuff. |
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I agree - especially Classical Writing which is very different from Classical Composition.
btw - what's the title of the D'Angelo book?
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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BrendaPeter
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Anne Marie M wrote:
Also, Brenda, we're doing a lot of explaining English grammar as it comes up in the Latin - direct objects, for example. A book like English Grammar for Students of Latin can be a good help here. |
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"English Grammar for Students of Latin" just came in the other day. Thanks Anne Marie!
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Brenda (mom to 6)
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andibc
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| Posted: June 23 2006 at 5:47pm | IP Logged
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BrendaPeter wrote:
btw - what's the title of the D'Angelo book? |
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Composition in the Classical Tradition
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0023271418/102-4307746-6965 721?v=glance&n=283155 Very expensive. I picked it up on ebay about 3 years ago and had to wait a few months and I finally picked it up for under $10. It is for college students and the material is very secular and not always what you want a teen to read.
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Willa
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andibc wrote:
| It is for college students and the material is very secular and not always what you want a teen to read. |
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Definitely. But that being said, it's a useful guide to the progym. I actually put labelling stickers over the unpleasant parts so *I* wouldn't have to look at the newspaper article stories of domestic violence, etc. I think the book was meant for aspiring lawyers, by the sound of it.
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Willa
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Progymnasmata Steps
