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Helen
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lapazfarm wrote:
This is coming from a genuine sense of curiosity, but could someone please explain why wearing pants would be considered immodest? |
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Well, um... yikes ... this is some thread...I feel like I'm on a roller coaster 
But here it goes....
weeeeeeeee!
Is a skirt the only measure of femininity or modesty? Of course not. Modesty is a fruit of the Holy Spirit and as such it is very profound. It is a quality that is difficult to describe in words because it is something that is lived in a person. When you meet a person who practices and cultivates modesty – you know it. Children under the age of ten with their innate thirst for truth, under ordinary conditions, will know purity. Unfortunately for adults, due to the effects of original sin, they do not immediately and intuitively understand (a gift of the Holy Spirit) the meaning of modesty (a fruit of the Holy Spirit.) (I have to go look up the quote from Our Lord...Unless you be like one of these...)
Since man is not a pure spirit, but a composite of body and soul (and St. Edith Stein also says psyche), what we do with our bodies will affect our souls and vice versa. Having a concern about what protects our bodies, the temple of the Holy Spirit, will also impact the development of our spiritual life. The saints teach that if we work on one virtue we work on all of them.
My experience with wearing a skirt is that it is the proximate cause of various virtues. (Are there other ways of practicing these virtues – Certainly!) My experience tells me that wearing a skirt allows a daily ability to practice these virtues.
1. I can’t seem to get around the fact that Our Lady never appeared in slacks. She is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, the one through whom God has chosen to distribute His graces to the world, and She never once wore slacks. Our Lady is the paradigm of Catholic femininity and Christian perfection. Wearing a skirt I imitate Our Lady.
2. In 1917 when Our Lady appeared in Fatima she said there will be many fashions that greatly offend the Lord. Before 1960, women did not wear slacks. Constant wearing of slacks by women is a fairly new idea. (Did our grandmothers or mothers ever or routinely wear slacks?) Wearing a skirt I listen to Our Lady.
3. Who wears the pants in your house? I believe this old saying contains a kernel of truth. It is good for the family to have a head – the father- and a heart- the mother. I have found a healthy obedience is nurtured by wearing a skirt.
4. Detachment from body image.
In slacks, gaining one pound to five pounds makes a difference. One notices pretty quickly in the inseam. I have found because of wearing skirts, I hardly ever step on the scale – it just doesn’t matter as much.
5. Gentility
In trying to cultivate a genteel spirit within myself and my home, I have found that a skirt assists this mentality and behavior. One is more inclined to sit like a lady, walk like one, behave like a lady in a dress. If the skirt is A-line than outdoor activities and playing with children on the floor are not encumbered. In fact, I find I like to sit on the floor with my children in a skirt. I don’t notice my body as much as I did in slacks.
6. Mortification.
Sometimes I do feel like a dress or skirt is a public hairshirt. Sometimes, it isn’t as easy. But, then Our Lady asked at Fatima: Are you willing to offer yourselves in sacrifice?
7. Example/Witness to the World
The Lord prayed for those of His own who were in the world yet not of the world. As He was persecuted, so would His own. If I am really one of His, I shouldn’t easily fit in with the world’s standards.
8. Modesty
Slacks definitely point out a certain part of the body more so than skirts.
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Sarah
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I don't think one can say a blanket statement that wearing pants is immodest. Tight-fitting, suggestive clothing whether they are skirts or pants are immodest.
I think dresses and skirts are more feminine, however, which is obvious. If a woman was striving to add more feminity to their life, that would be the best place to start.
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Sarah
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Helen wrote:
6. Mortification.
Sometimes I do feel like a dress or skirt is a public hairshirt. |
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Amen, sister  . You can seriously offer a lot with wearing a skirt. People are really bugged by it and every once in a while I feel really, well, . . .like I don't fit in. Like at my son's baseball games, for example.
I had a neighbor who just kept bugging me about it. My own mother bugs me about it. My mother-in-law bugs me about it. What's up?
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guitarnan
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A couple of stray thoughts...
I know one Christian dad up here who actually won't go to the base pool with his children because he feels that, for him, it's a "near occasion of sin" experience. We're pretty conservative up here, but he still realizes that for him, temptation is there. I can't pretend to understand it. I know he's a faithful and devoted husband and father. He knows enough to avoid places that would distress him.
I am so, so gratified to know that there are teens and dads out there who want to see young ladies dressed modestly!!! My son is only 14. He has definite ideas about what's appropriate (no tattoos, piercings, dyed hair, etc.) in his mind...it's wonderful to learn that he is not the only teen out there who feels a sense of what's appropriate. (He's a good influence on his trend-conscious little sis, too.)
Under right conditions, I, personally, don't consider pants inappropriate, but I can also state that to me. the current fashions can, at their extremes, exceed any bounds of modesty, decorum and/or attractiveness. Even quasi-anorexic young ladies up here seem to look overweight in their low-slung jeans. It's sad, because I get the idea that these attractive young ladies may decide that the current fashions mean that they (young ladies) are unattractive or overweight, when, in fact, they are bothe lovely and perfectly fit.
I graduated from a Catholic girls' high school that seemed to have more than its fair share of anorexic students. In one family, this tragic illness was epidemic and claimed the lives of one daughter and one son. Where are we, when body image reaches beyond sanity, I wonder? (Elizabeth, this is why your niece's current illness touches me so deeply.)
God gave us beautiful, useful and healthy bodies. How, then, are we to cultivate a truly good (God-serving and healthy) image of our selves?
This is a thought-provoking and worthwhile thread. Thanks, everyone, for continuing to share your experiences and thoughts.
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marihalojen
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Patrick, I am so glad you chimed in tonight, your words are filled with wisdom stated in a very easy to understand manner, as evidenced by your previous postings linked in this current thread. I am very hopeful that this thread can continue to the benefit of all who wish to learn and understand.
Elizabeth wrote:
Jennifer,
I think you are in one of those unique situations where the cultural norm is different. For all of us, we are surrounded by immodesty as a standard. But for you, it is appropriate to sit around in a in a bathing suit with a pareo around your waist. You're on a boat! What you and Marianna have to discern is what the parameters are for the bathing suit. You are in a great position to show the boating world how women can be comfortable and feminine and modest and move as they need to. But I am eager to see how you do it, because you certainly have a greater challenge than the average mom in the midwest! |
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I’ve thought about this often this afternoon, and oddly enough I am arriving at the conclusion that in our life bikinis are what we use to maintain modesty. On a sailboat anchored off an island the bikinis are literally our bathing costumes. After swimming we use soap that suds in salt water and we each get 2 quarts of fresh water for rinsing hair, body and suit. I have a large collection of suits and one very real requirement for me to buy a new swimsuit, is the string ties (a string bikini). Any female that sails with us is offered one of these as it easily adjusts to any size. Bathing in saltwater with a freshwater rinse requires cleanliness of the body or sores will result. A bikini within the view of family and close friends (they are literally close friends – we just shared our 35’ home with them and in the middle of an ocean you cannot just show people to the door) allows this with the minimum of water. (We carry 60 gallons of fresh water) A sarong or pareo, full or half-size, are tied around after bathing, both for sun protection and modesty.
This is our anchored out routine, when dockside we have access to full bathing facilities and ‘real’ clothes. The suits we select to go to the beach or pool are very different, Marianna found hers in the women’s nip and tuck, miracle suit style section of a store. It's lovely! White with pretty blue flowers and green and brown leaves with an attached front skirt. Because of the section of the store we bought it in the material is thicker and stronger, will last longer and will hold one in better.
What I am trying to discern in my mind is whether this is a unique situation where ‘practicality meets modesty,’ or whether I am a frog being slowly boiled! This is what I meant by the appropriateness for our families in each of our locales and in the activities each family chooses to participate in. How do we meet our greatest challenges in a modest and feminine, yet comfortable and practical way?
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Angie Mc
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See what I miss when I'm away from my computer for several days? I started reading this thread, quoting, and replying, when I realized that many of you have tackled the subject content of modesty so well, with awesome links, CCC quotes, and well-thought out arguments, that I felt I could just sit back and  . I'm happy to be back and will add just a few things outside of the content.
Wearing my "administrator" hat, I want to thank those who have been generous with your time in composing thoughtful and respectful posts. I especially appreciate MacBeth's clarity...
MacBeth wrote:
| When you visit here, you are visiting Catholic culture....I would not come into a Catholic forum and expect members to feel comfortable hearing about immodest behavior.... please try to be sensitive to the sentiments of the group. If you are here to learn, you are very welcome. If you come here to challenge, you are also welcome...but know that you will be asked to defend your position with Catholic doctrine... |
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Yes! We are to be tough on the topic and gentle on the people here  .
Wearing my "sister" hat, I've got to give a big  to the gal who started this whole thread. Jennifer, I am so proud of you and your efforts to grow in faith and to raise my niece and nephew in a home that values modesty. This is especially difficult because we were not raised with clarity on this issue and our culture is so immodest. I also appreciate that you trust the members of this board to address your concerns with respect, personal experience, solid Catholic teaching, and love. Thanks!
Wearing my "wife and mother vocation" hat, I'm very fortunate because my children have owned their modesty, with guidance from their parents. My dd just turned 14 and we talked about this topic the other night. We had a fascinating conversation about why well-formed, fully-evangelized Catholics can come to different conclusions on how to dress (aside from other aspects of modesty.) The one word that we came up is transparent...to be transparent in order for others to see Christ through us. This may look different depending on how God specifically calls us to fill our ministry (build up the Church from within) and missionary (attract those outside the Church to Christ) work.
Love,
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Willa
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Helen wrote:
| 1. I can’t seem to get around the fact that Our Lady never appeared in slacks. She is the Spouse of the Holy Spirit, the one through whom God has chosen to distribute His graces to the world, and She never once wore slacks. Our Lady is the paradigm of Catholic femininity and Christian perfection. Wearing a skirt I imitate Our Lady. |
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Helen, I do agree with the general principle. But then, Jesus does not appear in slacks either. Maybe slacks just aren't a good item for wear in general?? I wouldn't mind at all returning to the middle ages with the nice tunics and gowns : )
That being said, I do wear mostly skirts when I go out of the house, nowadays. It is for reparation and and to support my daughter who chooses to wear skirts out of modesty and often feels like she is the only one on our mountain who feels that way about it. And you're right, it IS like a hairshirt, often. I am a jeans person by default! but I'm slowly getting more used to the whole skirt business, especially since my daughter gave me 3 pretty 8-panelled ones that she sewed. 
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Kathryn UK
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I'm enjoying this conversation, but am still hopelessly muddled over modesty  . Not over the teaching of the Church, or what constitutes modest behaviour, but simply over the issues of clothing which do seem to hinge largely on cultural norms that I can't pin down. For example, I just don't get the problem with sleeveless tops. I have discussed it with dh and neither of us get it ... we simply don't see bare arms as constituting immodesty or having any s*xual function or attraction whatsoever. In fact, I had never even heard of this as an issue before reading similar threads to this one. Is this cultural? Do Americans see arms (and shoulders, come to that) differently to the British?
When looking into the modesty issue a while ago I found a quote from Pope John Paul II which made clear that responsibility rests on both sides - women should dress appropriately and modestly, but within reasonable norms - men also have a duty to control their own impulses and thoughts and women are not responsible for being an occasion of sin when they are behaving and dressing within those norms. I think that was the gist of it. I have changed computers since and lost the reference: maybe it came from Love and Responsibility? I thought this explained perfectly why burkhas are profoundly un-Catholic - a burkha is the ultimate end to which idea of modest dressing can be pursued, on the grounds that any uncovered flesh could be a temptation to someone, but it puts the entire responsibility onto women and dispenses men from theirs.
I know there is a happy medium in modest dress, I just can't fathom out quite where it is! Also I have swithered over the skirts / trousers issue. Over the last couple of years I did switch largely to skirts, not because I think trousers or jeans are immodest but because I wanted to try to dress in a more feminine manner. During pregnancy I have gone back to trousers as that is all I have - I couldn't find an affordable maternity skirt that fit. Who knows what I will end up wearing once I am back to a size that fits into normal clothes. I'm still searching for a modest (within reasonable norms!), feminine happy medium!
The ramblings of a confused mind ...
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Dawn
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Sarah wrote:
Helen wrote:
6. Mortification.
Sometimes I do feel like a dress or skirt is a public hairshirt. |
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Amen, sister . You can seriously offer a lot with wearing a skirt. People are really bugged by it and every once in a while I feel really, well, . . .like I don't fit in. Like at my son's baseball games, for example.
I had a neighbor who just kept bugging me about it. My own mother bugs me about it. My mother-in-law bugs me about it. What's up? |
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I'd like to know that too, Sarah! For me, I feel like when I wear a skirt or a dress, even though it's nothing fancy, it attracts too much attention. "Where are you going all dressed up?" "Well don't you look nice!" Well for pity's sake it's just a skirt! It makes me feel uncomfortable, so maybe that's something I need to deal with and work on. But I worry it looks like I'm trying to dress up and attract attention. Maybe once skirts become more routine for me, the questions won't be raised as often.
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Elizabeth
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Here's a link to the first Modesty Thread, where Kathryn posted an essay that does a good job of exploring the pants issue.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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Elizabeth
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guitarnan wrote:
I graduated from a Catholic girls' high school that seemed to have more than its fair share of anorexic students. In one family, this tragic illness was epidemic and claimed the lives of one daughter and one son. Where are we, when body image reaches beyond sanity, I wonder? (Elizabeth, this is why your niece's current illness touches me so deeply.)
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This, taken with Helen's comment about the scale, really interests me.(FWIW, my niece is at an exclusive all-girls Catholic secondary school.) I hadn't considered it that way. I do know that I have some maternity skirts with knit roll panels that I LOVe and I find myself actually hoping I can rig them postpartum. In a prior pregnancy, I would have thought it absolutely a failure not to leave the hospital in regular clothes. For me, this is progress.maternity skirt
and this one, only in fuschia
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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lapazfarm
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Helen,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my question. I cannot say I agree completely, but at least now I can understand where the idea of pants being immodest is coming from and I really appreciate that.
To me , skirt wearing is still more an issue of femininity than modesty. Perhaps I come from a different cultural standpoint, but believe I can behave just as modestly in pants as I can in a skirt (even more so as I cannot picture myself on hands and knees pulling weeds in the garden in a skirt! Yikes!), my dh still "wears the pants" in the family and my jeans won't change that, I have a healthy body image (people can take or leave me as I am ), and going in public in a skirt here is far from mortification because I always get compliments when I do.
So, though I could definitely be more feminine, I feel my modesty is intact in jeans.
But thank you for taking the time to share your perspective with me. I hope you know I respect your views immensely even while I don't fully agree.
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Theresa
us-schooling in beautiful Fairbanks, Alaska.
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MacBeth
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Kathryn UK wrote:
| I'm enjoying this conversation, but am still hopelessly muddled over modesty . Not over the teaching of the Church, or what constitutes modest behaviour, but simply over the issues of clothing which do seem to hinge largely on cultural norms that I can't pin down. For example, I just don't get the problem with sleeveless tops. |
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This is interesting to me, too. While I have never been fond of sleeveless blouses (for no particular reason that I can discern ), I never really thought they were immodest, yet, when in Italy, one was clearly not allowed into churches if one wore blouses without sleeves. This was well-enforced, with two options for women in sleeveless tops. One could either purchase a lovely knit shawl from a gypsy on the street (what a business they do!) or wear a paper top (and skirt, if your skirt is deemed too short) given out by the church.
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MacBeth
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Dear folks...
After some lengthy discussion between us, the moderators have decided to let this thread stand as is, despite the offensive tone of some posts, though the whole thread will soon be archived.
We made this decision because of the complexity of the issue and because of the value of the discussion as a whole. What we hope is that enough of us will get good, thoughtful information to make leaving it up worthwhile, and we hope that you will all understand this decision, which was ont made lightly. I think there are some issues which we should not skirt .
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Rebecca
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MacBeth wrote:
| This was well-enforced, with two options for women in sleeveless tops. One could either purchase a lovely knit shawl from a gypsy on the street (what a business they do!) |
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Oh, I LOVE this image.
MacBeth wrote:
| or wear a paper top (and skirt, if your skirt is deemed too short) given out by the church |
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Why are there different standards from country to country in regard to what is worn to Mass? Why doesn't this happen in the states? Anyone know?
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Angie Mc
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MacBeth wrote:
Kathryn UK wrote:
| I'm enjoying this conversation, but am still hopelessly muddled over modesty .... simply over the issues of clothing which do seem to hinge largely on cultural norms that I can't pin down. For example, I just don't get the problem with sleeveless tops. |
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This is interesting to me, too. While I have never been fond of sleeveless blouses (for no particular reason that I can discern ), I never really thought they were immodest, yet, when in Italy, one was clearly not allowed into churches ... |
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Here's a cultural slant. Since moving to the desert, I stopped wearing sleeveless tops and shorts. In this dry climate, material acts as a shade between my sun and skin. For sun protection purposes, our family covers our shoulders (short or long sleeves.) The rest of my family wears shorts but I'm so fair skinned and hate being hot (I know, I know...why DO I live in a desert?) that I cover up, including a wide-brimmed hat. Interestingly, all outdoor workers here (yep, working out in 120+ degree weather creating highways for example) ALL cover up from head to toe...in layers. This definitely has to do with the lack of humidity. I'm picturing the difference between billowing layers of material covering travelers who journey with their camels through the Sahara and their less-clad brothers and sisters living in a rain forest.
WJFR wrote:
| That being said, I do wear mostly skirts when I go out of the house, nowadays. It is for reparation and and to support my daughter who chooses to wear skirts out of modesty ....I'm slowly getting more used to the whole skirt business, especially since my daughter gave me 3 pretty 8-panelled ones that she sewed. |
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This is wonderful! I always wear a skirt to Mass and to other dress-up functions, like birthdays and other gatherings. There was a time when I wore skirts/dresses most days, that was a few years back when my children were young and those plaid sleeveless dropwaist dresses were in style and readily available second-hand. I do purchase all of my clothing second-hand or on-sale at inexpensive stores which may explain why now I'm currently wearing cotton t shirts and cotton capris! I'm going to talk to dd about making some long cotton skirts for more everyday wear.
Love,
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momwise
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MacBeth wrote:
| when in Italy, one was clearly not allowed into churches if one wore blouses without sleeves. This was well-enforced, with two options for women in sleeveless tops. One could either purchase a lovely knit shawl from a gypsy on the street (what a business they do!) or wear a paper top (and skirt, if your skirt is deemed too short) given out by the church. |
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I'm not totally sure but I remember in one chastity talk or discussion someone mentioned that if the armholes are loose, there may be too much of a view into the front. OTOH, perhaps some people see it as just one more barrier that was dropped (the "slippery slope" idea).
Clothing should protect what is meant to be shared between spouses and it should be functional.
Ultimately, our main concern should be for our brothers and what they have to endure to maintain chaste thoughts. Yet as many people lose virtue to the extreme of vice, others will take it to the opposite extreme (so much of understanding virtue is knowing moderation); hence you have cultures where men dictate extreme coverings with only eyeholes for women out of a distorted sense of holiness (or just plain mysogeny). We don't want to go there either.
So considering the function and protecting the sacred are our guidelines.
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Gwen...wife for 30 years, mom of 7, grandma of 3.....
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Cay Gibson
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Kathryn UK wrote:
| For example, I just don't get the problem with sleeveless tops. |
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I don't either. Here's one for cultural norms. We're in Louisiana.  (these are sweat drops, not tears ) My dd and I wear sleeveless tops. They are very common.
I never wore sleeveless growing up because my arms were too skinny  . Now I love them. I found, when I had a chubby toddler on my lap, pulling at my hair, etc. I often found myself hot...and that just makes me irritable. Sleeveless tops did wonders for my disposition and served as a natural cooling. I do have nice tops with short sleeves to wear out and about as well.
And I wear capri most the time.
The last time we were shopping, I noticed and commented to my dd how common skirts are becoming. You see them in the stores and on young girls a lot (around here anyway).
They're worn with flip-flops. Is that just a Louisiana fad?
The skirts are darling on these young girls though. I'd love to wear them but I find---as some of you have mentioned--- I am more productive in pants. I love my capris and have a nice pair of blue jeans when the occassion warrants.
MacBeth wrote:
| I never really thought they were immodest, yet, when in Italy, one was clearly not allowed into churches if one wore blouses without sleeves. |
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Good to know this, MacBeth.
Kayleigh and I are planning to go to Italy for her senior trip and we will both need to censor our casual tourist wardrobe.
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Cay Gibson
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ladybugs
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Joined: Feb 07 2005
Location: California
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Posts: 3732
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| Posted: June 06 2006 at 10:48am | IP Logged
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Cay Gibson wrote:
They're worn with flip-flops. Is that just a Louisiana fad?
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It is tres California, too.
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Love and God Bless,
Maria P
My etsy store - all proceeds go to help my fencing daughters!
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Kathryn UK
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Joined: Feb 27 2005
Location: England
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Posts: 924
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| Posted: June 06 2006 at 10:56am | IP Logged
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MacBeth wrote:
| I never really thought they were immodest, yet, when in Italy, one was clearly not allowed into churches if one wore blouses without sleeves. |
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The same applies in Greece. On the other hand, plunging necklines don't appear to be a problem .
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Kathryn
Dh Michael, Rachel(3/95) Hannah(8/98) Naomi(6/06) (11/07)
The Bookworm
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4Real Forums : Tea and Conversation
Topic: Dressing Modestly
