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Martha
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Well here are the requirements of Lenten fasting in the RCC
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/liturgicalyear/activi ties/view.cfm?id=1013
So really the only thing extra as far as diet goes for someone doing W30 is to leave the meat off their plate. Sure they could use shrimp in place of it. But even a huge bowl of fettuccine Alfredo sans meat or seas food wouldn't be in the spirit of it either.
I plan to skip the meat entirely and just have soup or plain salad. I'm even contemplating not eating at all on those days since I'm not bfing or prego. I'm not saying it won't be difficult. It will. I just figured I'd add that to my Lenten sacrifices.
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TryingMyBest
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| Posted: Jan 09 2014 at 10:31pm | IP Logged
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I'm not referring to the official requirements but to the traditional fasting practices.
Jenn
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Martha
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| Posted: Jan 09 2014 at 10:38pm | IP Logged
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Oh well okay then.. They would not have meat for more than one principle meal per day of lent. So they'd still get to have meat or meat related meal once a day.
http://www.fisheaters.com/fasting.html
Traditionally it was a partial, not entire for every day of lent.
Does that help?
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TryingMyBest
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| Posted: Jan 09 2014 at 11:24pm | IP Logged
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No, the traditional fast was to abstain from meat for all of Lent. See http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0527.ht ml
Regardless of what the rules are today they were much stricter in the past. My issue isn't so much "how" the fast and paleo can be combined but is more about the philosophy behind paleo given that the historical practice of the Church is abstain from meat during certain seasons of the year. Also some monks historically abstained from meat for much of the year.
Jenn
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Martha
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| Posted: Jan 10 2014 at 8:48am | IP Logged
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I have no idea what your point is then. Food is not a religion. There's no moral imperative in this. (I couldn't read the link.)
The philosophy is nothing more than eating healthier and changing our mentality about our relationship with food.
I only have a vague idea of paleo bc I don't use it. W30 and paleo are not interchangeable.
W30 makes it possible for even a vegetarian to follow, tho of course it is modified for their needs.
I have no idea why the history of how monks have eaten in the past has anything to with following or not following W30 or any other program in the present.
Also fasting varies by location too and always has.
ETA: My post sounds abrasive to me and I didn't intend that.
My general reaction to your post is more of confusion than anything else. 
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JennGM
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Jenn,
How traditional are you going? That article you linked was saying that the VERY early church in certain places had extreme fasting and abstaining, but it was never universal. The Orthodox Church has stringent rules, also. But if we are talking 20th century traditional, or even 19th century, eggs, milk, fish are allowed, and every day except Fridays one meal with meat was allowed.
Is this something you already do, or trying to embrace? On days of fasting I just make sure I have lots of protein sources to make up my meals.
If you are choosing a Paleo approach for your health, there is a way to do this while fasting if you are following the Western church fasting rules from the last centuries.
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stacykay
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Becky Parker wrote:
I did something like the Whole 30 under the care of a naturopathic doctor just recently. I had been having heart problems, mostly due to stress. That combined with the weight I'm really frustrated with was all I needed to embrace the whole detox thing. I felt SO much better! But, my timing was terrible because I did it over the holidays. I only slipped up a few times for Thanksgiving (hello, pecan pie!  )and my doc said to just keep going. But I ended it right around Christmas which included a trip to stay with family, so the transition did not go well. I think I need to restart it, but mustering the will power is more difficult this time!
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Becky, I am trying to get back on that horse, too. I went to a registered dietician since I have food allergies, and too many diets out there eliminate whole groups of foods that I need for protein sources. I was doing very well, following the plan, but Christmas eating knocked me off course! I "rationalized" a bit too much, "Oh, just this one Christmas cookie ds decorated just for me, Oh, just this one of my bff's famous thumbprint cookies, Oh, just one magic cookie bar, just this one Chocolate truffle...." ad nauseum!
I am getting back on track, and trying to get out for a walk each day, although our recent spate of snow and bitterly cold temps waylaid those plans, too.
As soon as I finish typing, I am taking dss around the block, for a short 10 minute walk. It isn't much, but I have to get myself moving and not keep putting it off until tomorrow!
I'll pray for your motivation whenever I pray for mine!
God Bless,
Stacy in MI
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Erica Sanchez
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Jenn (TryingMyBest), I see what you are trying to say. My oldest daughter has tried to follow the traditional fasting guidelines the previous two Lents which was like what Jenn, above, says. Fasting every day except Sunday (how much you eat) and partial abstinence (one meal with meat) everyday except no meat at all on Fridays. I am thinking Sundays you could have meat.
So, while I think you can do paleo during Lent, meat is a huge part of paleo and it does appear that proponents of it aren't necessarily concerned with the religious practices of Catholics. :) That might not be a fair assessment and I certainly haven't clicked around that much, but in the past few weeks I haven't seen much God-talk in the sites I have been visiting. That is why I like reading some of Katie's stuff at Kitchen Stewardship. She is Catholic and promotes really healthy stuff but has a balance about things, too.
I have trouble with the idea that any food is off limits (except the man-made, processed stuff out there nowadays) since God created everything. Like the banana. Oh, I know, it is a fruit that is higher on the glycemic level or whatever, but I am going to eat a banana because God made the banana! :) And, I know food has changed in the way it is processed and such (dairy). But, you know what I mean.
So, like Martha said, food is not a religion. I will put my put my Catholic faith above a diet or food plan any day. But, I think our faith is very wise in regards to food. My family was speaking about how little the Church asks of us in regards to food. I wondered if more followed the older , traditional guidelines for fasting, which are harder and just more, would we, myself included, have more control over food? Does that make sense? Just my wandering thoughts.
My daughter has been a wonderful example to us in her attempts at some harder fasting and abstinence practices and I think it has transferred over to other areas of her life. Unlike her mother!! :)
Saying all this in a pondering way and not trying to be contrary about the newer requirements of us regarding these thing. I know and understand why the Church changed some of these things.
I like talking about food. I like food! I feel great doing the Whole30 and I do think it is worthy especially if you are suffering from ailments due to food but you don't know which foods. But, I am looking forward to day 31! :)
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CrunchyMom
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I have been thinking about a whole 40 diet for lent, Martha 
I also often come back to this Perfect Health Diet as a good paleo-compromise for a larger family, though, I've never gotten around to reading the book. The name rubs me the wrong way. It allows for rice and potatoes, which help stretch meals when cooking for so many.
I'm not sure when I will have the energy to start, though. I think that the mentality of "I can do anything for 30 days" is helpful.
I remember reading some time ago, too, that for the modern rules of abstaining, you can use a meat stock or broth with scant meat in the soup and still comply with fasting/abstaining rules. I think it was a Jimmy Akin article, but I'm not sure.
Regarding health implications of early rules, etc..., I don't think that it is the same. For one thing, the actual composition of wheat has changed drastically since the time of the early church and subsequently, the way the human body reacts to it.
Also, isn't it plausible that it was because of the questionable health effects that the church modified its requirements through time? I also look to some of the extreme mortifications of the saints, and there is no way to justify them as "healthy." They were called to something extraordinary, something outside of what is normally required for health. Another idea to consider is that, if one is in good health, perhaps a time of extended fasting is healthful, a detox of sorts, but ironically, in spite of the abundance of food options, many of us are quite depleted nutritionally.
I also can't help but think of Kristen Lavrensdatter and the descriptions of how they prepared for lenten fasting by fermenting and drying fish and prepared fish broths from the bones. All very healthful, paleo alternatives to meat and dairy but a little outside the grasp of most of us. The availability of seafood is strikingly different today. In colonial New England, lobster was a peasant's food. The gentry wouldn't eat it. Fish, seafood, chowder, etc... was something that peasants could eat cheaply. A complete fast from meat and dairy but allowing seafood simply doesn't mean the same thing today as it did 500 years ago.
Anyway, I'm not sure if follows that because the early church prescribed something it is necessarily healthful or practicable for us today. The spirit of what was being asked seems to be more applicable, and by golly, in the age of processed foods, giving up bread, peanut butter, and sugar in any form seems pretty darn penitential, especially for a busy mom feeding little ones.
I might not survive giving up peanut butter. 
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Martha
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Erica Sanchez wrote:
So, while I think you can do paleo during Lent, meat is a huge part of paleo and it does appear that proponents of it aren't necessarily concerned with the religious practices of Catholics. :) |
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To be fair, meat is a huge part of most American meals. Most paleo meals just discourage adding a huge amount of nutrient deficient carbs to the meat. It's not necessarily adding more meat to the meals. W30 very clearly has a template and at least half of every plate is not meat.
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| I have trouble with the idea that any food is off limits (except the man-made, processed stuff out there nowadays) since God created everything. Like the banana. Oh, I know, it is a fruit that is higher on the glycemic level or whatever, but I am going to eat a banana because God made the banana! :) And, I know food has changed in the way it is processed and such (dairy). But, you know what I mean. |
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W30 does not say any foods are off limits. The idea is to see which foods YOU as an INDIVIDUAL do not do well on and to limit those foods. The second idea is to make what you do eat as nutrient dense as possible. You can have fruit on w30, but you are supposed to eat it as a part of your meal, not just to satisfy a sugar craving as a snack.
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| But, I am looking forward to day 31! :) |
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And in a way that's a good thing. It's nice to have food occasionally be an extra special treat. I find I'm enjoying food MORE now than before.
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Martha
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Not to mention some locales couldn't have fish either. Because they NEVER had meat to begin with as fish was their Primary diet. So saying no meat, only cheap fish would have been a rather moot point to them.
I like a certain brand of cashew butter (Superior Selections) better than peanut butter! But I rarely eat it. I like it with apple slices. Otherwise I don't even eat that. The kids still get peanutbutter. ;)
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TryingMyBest
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Sorry for derailing the thread and for not being very precise.
My main objection to the ideas behind paleo (and Whole30 is paleo) is that it isn't consistent with historical catholic practices. If you read paleo and Whole30 sites you will see claims that paleo is the optimal way to eat. Even that it is the ONLY healthy way to eat. I simply cannot accept that given what I know about historical fasting practices in the Eastern and Western Churches. The Church would not teach a fasting discipline that goes against optimal health. I'm not suggesting that diet is infallible or even dogma. And of course fasting practices have always varied by location. However, abstaining from meat is consistent throughout history and location.
"Anyway, I'm not sure if follows that because the early church prescribed something it is necessarily healthful or practicable for us today. The spirit of what was being asked seems to be more applicable, and by golly, in the age of processed foods, giving up bread, peanut butter, and sugar in any form seems pretty darn penitential, especially for a busy mom feeding little ones. "
You could make that argument about all kinds of ancient practices and where would it stop? I think you run into problems when we start questioning the historical practices of the Church as not applicable to our modern day life. It just seems safer to me to stick to what has always been done, e.g. St. Vincent of Lerins' famous saying "what has been believed everywhere, always and by all."
Jenn
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CrunchyMom
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Except that the Church Herself did change this...a long time ago. Presumably for a good reason? I LOVE tradition and truth, but fasting rules are not dogma. It is clear from the article that you linked that 40 days of complete abstaining from meat was not, in fact, "belieived everywhere always and by all."
That said, I, too, take issue with the way that Paleo/Primal is often presented dogmatically by its followers. I try to take what I can from various schools, and I have found that grains are so often a source of inflammation for me, and some paleo/primal resources do a good job of explaining why. I know I not only lose weight going low carb but also feel better, much as Martha describes.
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TryingMyBest
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I don't think you can say that the Church changed it. Eastern Catholics, at least in the old countries, still traditionally follow Eastern Orthodox fasting rules.
Let's also remember that all that was changed was canon law which is the bare minimum requirement. The tradition remains the same.
Jenn
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SallyT
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That PHD diet looks interesting, Lindsay. In our paleo phase I really missed potatoes and rice, not so much because I love potatoes and rice, but because you can get so many cheap meals out of them, one way and another. I'm making a British fish pie tonight, in fact, with a mashed-potato topping. I missed things like that a lot more than I missed wheat, though I do like making bread . . . I can bang out a couple of loaves fairly quickly to fill up hungry people. And we all like pancakes . . . I just wish alternative flours were as cheap as plain old whole wheat.
The other thing I hate doing without is beans. Again, I don't just lovelovelove beans. But they fill people up way more cheaply than meat does. And a bean soup in the crockpot on a cold day: so easy, so good.
But yes, we love that chocolate chili in the Well Fed cookbook. It is a favorite of everyone in my house. I also like her spice rubs -- the rogan josh is a big favorite here, as well as the various North African spice mixes and rubs. I use those all the time to dress up chicken.
Sally
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JodieLyn
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TryingMyBest wrote:
I don't think you can say that the Church changed it. Eastern Catholics, at least in the old countries, still traditionally follow Eastern Orthodox fasting rules.
Let's also remember that all that was changed was canon law which is the bare minimum requirement. The tradition remains the same.
Jenn
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Traditions with a small t can be wonderful, holy practices and they can be good for you. But Church traditions are not about "healthy diet" or "physical health" they're about spiritual health and detachment from worldly things. As a matter of fact that's what all the regulations about fasting are for. To prevent them from impacting health. Those with significant health issues are excused, those that are young or old are excused, those that need a certain amount of calories or nutrition because of health issues or physical requirements(like for work) are excused.
And while traditions are because of how things used to be done and can be lovely. They do change. Tradional fasting as you define it is no longer a practise that is followed many places.. what the Church teaches about it HAS changed.
There are many many traditions within the Catholic Church. Some are older. Some not so ancient. Different countries have different traditions. Even within a country or time period there are different traditions. None that follow the Church are any better than others. Nor does it mean that other traditions are only "the bare minimum". It's ok to choose one that is right for you, and it's ok that other people choose other ways.
I can see how you'd think of Canon Law as the "bare minimum" because there's so much more you can choose to do in any one category. But if you look at it as a whole. The best you can do is to follow the Church. A minimum is not like you're barely scraping by rather, you're doing what you should and that is the best you can do. And then perhaps you're also given the grace to add to that with holy traditions, and that's good too. But that doesn't mean that everyone is given the grace to do more. Or to do the same things.
The reason the requirements for fasting have changed is that not everyone's needs in learning detachment are the same. And there are so many things that we can choose to give up in place of traditional food items that can foster the same spiritual health and detachment from worldly things (probably more than at any time in history).
The Catholic faith is growing, and our understanding is growing. Just because I had a rule from the time my child was born and so it's "traditional" doesn't mean that I shouldn't change that rule when they've grown from 2 to 10 or 16.
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CrunchyMom
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SallyT wrote:
That PHD diet looks interesting, Lindsay. In our paleo phase I really missed potatoes and rice, not so much because I love potatoes and rice, but because you can get so many cheap meals out of them, one way and another. I'm making a British fish pie tonight, in fact, with a mashed-potato topping. I missed things like that a lot more than I missed wheat, though I do like making bread . . . I can bang out a couple of loaves fairly quickly to fill up hungry people. And we all like pancakes . . . I just wish alternative flours were as cheap as plain old whole wheat.
The other thing I hate doing without is beans. Again, I don't just lovelovelove beans. But they fill people up way more cheaply than meat does. And a bean soup in the crockpot on a cold day: so easy, so good.
But yes, we love that chocolate chili in the Well Fed cookbook. It is a favorite of everyone in my house. I also like her spice rubs -- the rogan josh is a big favorite here, as well as the various North African spice mixes and rubs. I use those all the time to dress up chicken.
Sally |
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The PHD does say that beans might be okay in small quantities if prepared correctly but that they avoid them. Also, the Skmple
Carbohydrate Diet says that black beans are better than starchier beans, so I figure properly soaked black beans would probably not make or break the diet.
One friend who has researched a lot into these diets to heal her chronic health problems offered the rule of thumb compromise to consider regarding beans and nuts and such would be eat in the quantity you think would be feasible were you to grow it yourself and not be reliant on industrialization to eat in the quantity you consume. It made sense to me. One of our favorite meals is beans and rice.
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Martha
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Things were wildly different in the early church pending where they were and the circumstances.
A fishing villages being told to abstain from meat is rather silly and they recognized that and still do.
Canon changing is no little bare minimum thing, but even if it were, following the letter of the law is certainly no slacker thing to do either.
Again, food is not religion.
Traditionally the very early church ate typical middle eastern foods and their requirements for fasting would have been similar to the Jewish customs the Christian were familiar with AT THAT time. However the RCC of today does not expect us to eat, during lent or any other time, like middle eastern Jews in 100ce/ad. Because the type of food being eaten or not being eaten was not the point of the edicts then or now and has nothing to do with our catholicity or spiritual depth. Rather the entire point of fasting is to NOT focus on the food and instead focus on our spiritual nourishment.
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I think it's important to remember that there have been great advances in scientific knowledge since the original fasting rules (and many other traditions) were put in place. My mom remembers her Catholic school classmates routinely fainting at daily Mass when she was a young girl, because of the fast rules. Now the Church reminds us that younger and older Catholics (and diabetics, pregnant moms, etc.) don't have to fast and abstain during Lent, for example. It's not healthy for them, in many cases - but we didn't know as much about that when my mom was a little girl.
There are other, older traditions that the Church has modified or even discarded over the centuries; while those traditions were appropriate to their times, at some point our Church fathers determined that change would best serve the faithful and help them grow closer to God.
A gentle caution: Martha's information from the Fisheaters website is very helpful (thanks, Martha!), but it's important to keep in mind that this website, overall, tends to ignore post-Vatican II information. For more on this, see Catholic Culture's review of the site.
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Martha
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Regarding filling many bellies...
I agree that pasta, rice and beans do tend to fill us up.
However, I also find we tend to eat more of them and don't stay full as long as when I make a W30 meal.
No doubt pancakes fill a lot of people cheap. However my teens could easily eat 6-8 plate sized pancakes before they get full. And 2 hours later want a meal sized "snack".
However, 3 eggs and a side of some roasted sweet potatos and apples will also fill them up and keep them full until lunch. And there's no carb crash with it.
This tends to be true for many dishes. The only beans we like are black beans. A favorite cheap dish is Costa Rican black beans and rice. I can make a large quantity of it (actually dh makes it) for cheap and they eat several plates of it. And right before bed ask if they can have some fruit or something bc they are hungry.
Same goes for my favorite Asian dishes. :(
A couple weeks into W30, I found I wasn't wanting seconds anymore.
A few months and rounds of W30 later, I'm not breastfeeding and without that, I find I don't snack anymore either. With breastfeeding, one snack "mini meal" a day was a must. Nutrient dense foods fill me up on less and sustain me longer.
Ymmv.
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4Real Forums : Our Lady of Good Remedy and Care
Topic: Low carb diet for weight loss
