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pumpkinmom
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| Posted: Oct 21 2013 at 11:19am | IP Logged
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I'm needing to think about some areas that need to be addressed with my boys with copywork and writing. Posting it to see if anyone has some words of wisdom that I'm missing. I've noticed that they are struggling with writing conversation in their free writing projects. I've discussed it with them here and there and we've gone over it in copywork but they act as if this is something new when I point out that they need to be using quotation marks. I wouldn't expect my youngest to have this mastered yet, but I think the 12 year old should. In the past I pull out copywork that has quotation marks and point it out before having them copy it. They aren't paying any attention. I've learned that copywork for them is just hurry up and get it done. I assume it's one of the great mysteries of life on how to get boys to pay attention to details.  Or should I be expecting more out of them. They are both big readers (oldest more than youngest) so they see how conversation is written in what they are reading.
I guess I'm asking, what else can I do?
Also, I pretty much have stopped copywork with the 12 year because his writing is much improved and he isn't noticing the details I try to point out in the pieces and I feel like he is just treating it as a hurry up and get done which is a waste of time. I don't know how to get him to take it seriously.
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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jawgee
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| Posted: Oct 21 2013 at 12:12pm | IP Logged
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This year we are using books from Bravewriter as diction passages for my 11YO. (I got a mix of books from Arrow and Boomerang that I thought were quality books when there was a sale on Homeschool Buyers' Co-op).
Anyway, several weeks we've had passages that had no difficult spelling words for him, since he is a strong speller. On those weeks I tell him that I need him to pay special attention to the punctuation in the passage, because the goal that week was to copy the punctuation exactly.
So, maybe you could choose a conversation from a book he is reading and use it as dictation for the week - with the goal of using the punctuation properly?
If my 11YO doesn't treat it seriously and makes a lot of errors, I tell him that it seems he needs more practice, and that we'll be repeating the lesson the next day until it is done well.
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Monica
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pumpkinmom
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| Posted: Oct 21 2013 at 12:51pm | IP Logged
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Monica, Thank you for pointing out a resource that I have on hand that I could be using for this! I have some arrow and boomerang issues on hand. I just looked at one and it will be perfect help.
You mentioned that you make your 11YO repeat the lesson the next day. One thing about mine is he will copy the passages correctly. It usually comes about when I tell him he forgot quotation marks in his narration or free writing. He will tell me he doesn't know what those are and I tell him he had them in his copywork. He goes to get the copywork out and look because he thinks I've lost my mind. As usual mom is correct. He wrote it and paid no attention. This is our biggest problem.
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
Tending the Pumpkin Patch
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SallyT
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| Posted: Oct 21 2013 at 12:58pm | IP Logged
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I was going to suggest the same thing -- choosing passages with dialogue/quotation marks for dictation selections. We're actually focusing on that at the moment. My 11-year-old son, who dislikes copywork, does seem to like the challenge of dictation, though he moans about it on the front end.
Copywork at our house has tended to fade away around 7th grade or so and be replaced, gradually but increasingly, by the child's own writing. I've fantasized about having people keep commonplace books (lovelier books full of meaningful quotations chosen by the child him/herself), but it hasn't really happened yet around here. Yet, that is. My younger children are much better trained to do copywork than my olders were, so there's hope!
Uses for copywork for older children: choose rhetorically challenging passages and have him notice interesting words, turns of phrase, comparisons, what have you (in other words, do some very preliminary and basic rhetorical/literary analysis). If his grammar mastery is good, move him beyond grammar/surface style into what the passage is saying, and how the language is interesting. I'd say, let him choose his copywork passages, but that's never worked at our house. We'd end up with entire notebooks that said, "Jesus wept," on every page. But I do try to read their minds a little -- what *would* they choose if they *were* engaged in this project? If they had their heads on straight, what *would* they want to write and remember?
But, yeah. Both my son and my daughter tend to rush. Gel pens in interesting colors help the daughter. I have not yet figured out what would make the son take copywork more seriously, beyond my saying that he must do a decent job or else. OR ELSE, I say! But we persevere.
Sally
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: Oct 21 2013 at 1:15pm | IP Logged
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I wouldn't stop copywork with the 12 yo. But, keep backing up until he IS taking it seriously, and sitting with him to do it, which he will NOT like.
You have to decide what makes "good copywork" for him. Be specific. More on this later when I have more time.
As for the FREEWRITE.....I don't care at all if they are not doing quotations in a freewrite. You just want words on paper for a freewrite....it's the IDEAS you want NOT the technicalities in writing.
Now, you may want to CHOOSE one of those freewrites that HAS a lot of quotations to REVISE, so that you can point that out and make the appropriate revisions for/with him.
1. So.....pay no attention to the no-quotes in a freewrite, except to note taht you need to work on in copywork or dictation.
2. Use the revision process with a freewrite to point out quotes.
3. Refine copywork expectations. Be very, very specific.
More later....hopefully.
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Meredith
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| Posted: Oct 21 2013 at 10:08pm | IP Logged
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Hi Cassie, I haven't been here in a while, but I DO know a little something about boys and the writing or copywork process. They simply don't like it, there I said it!  Well, let me qualify that...they will do it, but it's not inherently their favorite thing, nor is it something they think has much merit. Let me explain. I have a dd (now 17) who was the ultimate copywork queen. She LOVED copywork, dictation, not so much, but she would breeze through it cause, A) she's a girl and B) she likes pretty paper, so we made it work. The boys on the other hand could care less about paper, pencil and their copywork, other than getting it over with...so, we don't stress over copywork.
Instead, we look at writing mechanics (on the computer or by hand) in a broader context through written and oral narration. In the various work they do for other "subjects" we edit, correct together and address spelling and punctuation issues along the way. And I agree with the other commenters about not being too uptight about the quotation issue within a freewrite. Some battles you just don't want to fight  By the way, we did enjoy using Susan Wise Bauer's Writing With Ease informally, you might peek at it and see if it would be of some use.
HTH, God Bless,
Meredith
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Oct 22 2013 at 6:31am | IP Logged
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My husband has beautiful handwriting. He also does calligraphy. I can't recall the name of the font, but it is very German and masculine. His 7th grade teacher,a man, taught the class. I'm not sure it would be helpful in the paying attention part, but perhaps it would help in acquiring discipline? Just a thought.
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SallyT
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| Posted: Oct 22 2013 at 9:25am | IP Logged
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Yes, I agree that it's probably best not to point out punctuation errors in narrations or free-writing. Just let that writing happen and leave it alone. Better usage will come in its own time, especially if you're practicing it consistently via copywork and dictation. Dictation really is where I teach these things: we study the passage, talk about capitalizations and punctuation and difficult-to-spell words before we write, and the onus is on the child to remember what things go where.
I have found this to be tremendously effective, but not immediately. My current high-schooler's writing is very, very good, in terms of both style and usage, and I was relaxed to the point of unschooliness when it came to his language-arts development. He did copywork for years and years, until finally his writing just took off, and I let the copywork drop. I did little to no dictation with him, and virtually nothing else. With my 9- and 11-year-olds, who do both copywork and dictation far more formally than the older ones did, I am seeing marked improvement in spelling and, gradually, usage, in what writing they do do on their own. We still don't do much written narration, but they write letters, stories, and so on, on their own, which I peek at but don't comment on at all.
I just concentrate on teaching through dictation exercises, mostly, while copywork helps them internalize things without even realizing that there's a grammar lesson involved. Eventually, with perseverance on my part, it will all come together, though of course it's hard to have faith that it will when you're not seeing it right now, and you wonder, "When? How long? How much of this do we have to do before it sinks in?"
I do think that we (and especially we as women) tend to underestimate just how slow the process is of combining the mechanics of writing with the mechanics of thinking -- for many children, really, but especially for boys, who tend to lag in fine-motor development early on, and who -- in my totally subjective observation -- do not find it at all easy to put all the parts together until well into middle school, if then. They're trying to make the hand do the writing. AND they're trying to think WHAT to write. That in itself is an all-consuming process until what we might consider fairly late in the game. AND to remember all those little marks, and where they're supposed to go? That's like walking, chewing gum, and playing Sudoku all at the same time, without running into a telephone pole.
So, as Mom, I think, "Why can't you do this? Just think and write, man! What could be simpler?" And he thinks, "Aaaaaaaaaaaaaah! I hate this! I hate you! I want to go hit a tree with a baseball bat!" And so the school day tanks.
At least . . . that . . . happens sometimes . . . at my house.
Meanwhile, the boy (the current 11-year-old boy who undergoes the copywork and dictation) does not like copywork and dictation in the same way that his sister does, and he frequently complains about it, but I do see these things bearing fruit even now. So I'm continuing to give him these tools -- more facility in handwriting, which he sorely needs, plus a growing mental store of conventions of English usage -- that, as he takes them on, will be put to use in his own writing . . . one of these days.
Sally
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pumpkinmom
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| Posted: Oct 22 2013 at 2:31pm | IP Logged
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This is all good information. Lots to ponder and work with. Thanks to everyone for all the insight!
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Cassie
Homeschooling my little patch of Ds-14 and Ds-10
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4Real Forums : Language Arts Come Alive
Topic: Boys . . . Copywork . . . . Writing
