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SaraP
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 12:15pm | IP Logged
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My oldest child who will be 5 in August has always been intense, active, constantly in motion and an extremely restless sleeper.
From birth to 6 or 8 months he wouldn't sleep out of my arms at all. Period.
From the age of 18 months to almost 4 years I sat with him while he fell asleep every single night and most nights it took 2-3 hours. He didn't goof off or try to get out of bed, but he had to lay there for that long in order to fall asleep no matter how we fiddled with naps, bedtimes, routines, etc. and he would completely lose it if I tried to leave the room even briefly.
Finally about a year ago we veeeeery slowly coaxed him into looking at books in bed until he fell asleep on his own and then he started getting up in the middle of the night and wandering around the house getting into things (once I found him at 4am mixing easter egg dye on my computer desk, another time he was 'cooking' with a very large jug of olive oil and every spice jar he could reach while standing on the kitchen counter).
I talked to his doc, she suggested I give him melatonin at bedtime which helped him to fall asleep faster, but made the night-waking worse.
We had 6 months or so of relative normalcy and now he has relapsed to where the ONLY way he can fall asleep at a reasonable hour (before 10 or 11pm) is for my DH to go to sleep with him. Not sit with him while DS falls asleep, but actually get into bed with DS and sleep there the whole night. Not really a workable solution since my DH doesn't get home until 9pm or later most nights and also since this leaves DH and I without even a few minutes alone together. He wakes up around 6am regardless of how late he went to sleep and, again, will only nap if DH sleeps with him.
So now I have a totally exhausted child who is sleeping only 9 or so hours out of 24 alternately manic, angry and yelling at me about something or sobbing and DH and I sort of coming unraveled as well and I haven't a clue what to do next.
I wouldn't mind having him sleep in my bed (all of the kids sleep there as babies and my 3yo regularly spends part of the night there still), but he won't SLEEP when he comes into my room. He pulls the covers off of everyone else, dismantles my jewelry box, drops books on the floor, kicks the headboard, talks loudly about whatever is going through his head and generally disrupts everyone.
We have a very consistent routine for bedtime and quiet-time. He eats nothing with caffiene and very little with refined sugar. His bedroom windows are blocked so no light comes in. We've tried massages, books on tape, warm milk, locking the door and leaving (  not happy about that one, but sometimes I get so exhausted and frustrated that I have to get a bit of separation from him and that is literally the only way to do it) . . . and none of it seems to help. He will NOT stay in bed, will NOT stop talking and cannot go to sleep.
I'd love any suggestions as to what is going on here and/or ways to cope and I'd really, really appreciate prayers.
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Mama to six on earth, two in heaven and two waiting in Russia. Foxberry Farm Almanac
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Jen L.
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 12:38pm | IP Logged
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Sara, I'm sending  to you.
I don't have any advice, but are allergies a possibility?
I am praying for your son, you and your husband, and the other kiddos.
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Jen
dh Klete,ds (8/95),dd (12/97), dd (11/00), and ^2^ in heaven
"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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Sarah
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 12:45pm | IP Logged
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SaraP wrote:
So now I have a totally exhausted child who is sleeping only 9 or so hours out of 24 alternately manic, angry and yelling at me about something or sobbing and DH and I sort of coming unraveled as well and I haven't a clue what to do next.
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Most of my kids DON'T sleep more than 9 hours in a 24 hour period.
We have our 3-4 yo's sleep in our room in his/her own bed. Now its a toddler bed, but it used to be a larger bed in our own room.
He may not need more than 9 hours sleep. I have a few very intense kids and they are just not sleepy. Now, my 2 yo (3 this summer) does not nap, goes to bed between 9 and 10 and gets up by 7:30 am. She is just active.
My melancholic one at almost 5 still naps and needs more sleep.
Could you just be feeling disappointed because you think he needs more sleep than he does? I'm not trying to make light of your feelings, though so please don't take this wrong.
I'll keep thinking on this one.
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Six boys ages 16, 14, 11, 7, 5, 2 and one girl age 9
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SaraP
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 12:53pm | IP Logged
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JenL wrote:
| I don't have any advice, but are allergies a possibility? |
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Forgive my ignorance, but how would allergies be causing this? And how would I go about figuring out what he is allergic too?
Sarah wrote:
| Could you just be feeling disappointed because you think he needs more sleep than he does? I'm not trying to make light of your feelings, though so please don't take this wrong. |
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Oh no, don't worry about offending me, but when he does get 11 or 12 hours of sleep for a few days (and he does have spells where he will sleep) he is cheerful and flexible and happy. Right now he spends at least an hour or two every day (and a few days it's been 4 or 5 hours) yelling about how angry he is about [insert issue of the day - I served something he doesn't like, he doesn't want me to run errands, he can't have a popsicle for breakfast] and how he wants 'rage around' and 'crash down the house' or sobbing. The other problem is that DH and I need more of a break than we get when he's only sleeping from 11pm to 6am and requiring us to be up with him from 3-4:30am (give or take) every night. He won't be awake quietly, if he's up, everyone else is, too.
If he were sleeping 9 hours a night and behaving normally, that would be fine, but that isn't what I see happening.
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JennGM
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 1:01pm | IP Logged
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SaraP wrote:
JenL wrote:
| I don't have any advice, but are allergies a possibility? |
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Forgive my ignorance, but how would allergies be causing this?
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Food sensitivies can cause behavioral problems. What kind of diet is he on? Are there any artificial colorings, flavorings?
I'm not an expert, but I've heard mention that a Feingold diet might help if this is food related.
Now if he has environmental allergies, or something else health related, young children can't express what they are physically feeling. My son is having bad allery attacks from the pollen. I'm noticing some behavioral changes in the past few weeks that correspond with the allergy reactions kicking. Sleeplessness, some hyper behavior, irritable, screaming...things he doesn't do normally. I know it COULD be the age, but from my personal experience tells me when your nose is constantly runny and itchy and you might have sinus headaches, can't sleep, can't breathe you get irritable!
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Jennifer G. Miller
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JennGM
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 1:05pm | IP Logged
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Oh, and BTW Sarah, my ds does not fall asleep well on his own, either. He's up until 10 or 11 at night. And he's almost 3. It takes him a while to calm down at night. He wants to talk, read books, etc. He's fine in his room, but just doesn't want to go to sleep.
But we don't have wandering...and he sleeps in until 7:30 or 8:00, so that's my tradeoff. When he does get to sleep, it's usually hard and long.
So I'm no expert...just giving some ideas in the allergy department.
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Jennifer G. Miller
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SaraP
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 1:08pm | IP Logged
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JenGM wrote:
| What kind of diet is he on? Are there any artificial colorings, flavorings? |
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No, no artificial stuff on any kind of a regular basis, but I've read about Feingold and seem to remember that it suggested limiting some natural foods, like apples, that are naturally occurring . . . somethings, salicylates maybe? Hmm. . . maybe I need to go read up on that one again.
But this is NOT a child who has any trouble expressing himself. This is a kid who last week said to me, "Daniel is absolutely flawless in the ways of little brotherdom and I DON'T LIKE IT!" 
I have asked him why he can't sleep and he says that he "can't wind down" and has "too many plans in his head to go to sleep".
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MaryM
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 1:11pm | IP Logged
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My mother swears by magnesium for everything (deficiencies at the root of many problems). I'll try to find my magnesium book as I know it addressed sleep issues. I googled magnesium and sleep and did get lots of hits.
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Sarah
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 1:12pm | IP Logged
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SaraP wrote:
If he were sleeping 9 hours a night and behaving normally, that would be fine, but that isn't what I see happening. |
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You are right here, SaraP. I am so sorry for you.
Do you feel like it could be a discipline issue? Again, I'm only to try to throw out ideas here.
Do you eat food with preservatives? Does he eat too much sugar (I know you said he didn't before)? What does he eat before bed? Could there be a hidden stimulant in a food he eats regularly? Even fruits can have an effect. What about diabetes? Does he urinate frequently, is he thirsty often?
I've heard that the reason people wake most often around 3-4am is because their blood sugar is at its lowest. Could he have blood sugar issues-like hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia, causing irritability and mood swings? I don't really know much about these--you could Google them.
You must feel really beside yourself. I don't have anymore answers. I'm going to pray for you.
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SaraP
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| Posted: May 15 2006 at 1:28pm | IP Logged
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Sarah wrote:
| Could he have blood sugar issues-like hypoglycemia or hyperglycemia, causing irritability and mood swings? |
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Yes! He eats what seems to me an enormous amount - as much as an adult even though he is average size for his age - and cannot go more than 3 or 4 hours during the day without eating without being very hungry and upset . . . but somehow (duh!) it never occurred to me that I am expecting him to go much longer than that between dinner and breakfast.
And, Mary, I'd love hear more about Mg and sleep if you can find your book.
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Jen L.
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I am by NO MEANS an expert on the allergy thing, but I have an anecdote:
When my friend put hypoallergenic mattress covers on her son's mattress and pillows, he slept through the night for the first time THAT NIGHT. He was probably around 2 or 3 and he had always had trouble sleeping.
I'm not saying that the covers are your solution, but it's another way that allergies can manifest themselves into sleeping problems.
Prayers continue...
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Jen
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"...the best state in which to glorify God is our actual state; the best grace is that of the moment..." St. Peter Eymard
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Taffy
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Sara, you have my sympathies
Just thought I'd help you with the brainstorming...
I know from personal experience that magnesium will help with anxiety issues.
It sounds, from your posts, that blood sugar may be something worth pursuing. Maybe a late bedtime snack?
What kinds of foods does he eat a lot of? That may give you a hint as to possible allergies. I remember hearing (a lot) that things you crave tend to be things you're allergic to.
My mother-in-law cannot eat store-bought bread. She can only eat homemade bread. Something in the store-bought bread will give her anxiety attacks. We think it must be because of preservatives but really don't know for sure.
Have you ruled out sleep apnea? That would explain a lot of what you're describing.
And a final idea... does your son have a problem with gluten (wheat protein)? This is becoming more and more common which is why I mention it. In some people, the gluten will destroy parts of the stomach lining and limit the body's ability to absorb certain nutrients from foods. A person with this problem may want to keep eating because their body is trying to get more of the nutrient it's short of.
Good luck Sara. I'll be praying for a solution.
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Susan
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jdostalik
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Sara,
Just caught this thread and wanted you to know that I am praying for you. You have gotten so much good advice. If it were me, I would have him tested for food/environmental allergies and try Feingold for a while and see what happens.
Lots of prayers coming to help you figure this out...
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Jennifer in TX
wife to Bill, mom to six here on earth and eight in heaven.
Let the Little Ones Come
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SaraP
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| Posted: May 16 2006 at 11:45am | IP Logged
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Thank you all so much!
I did some reading on Feingold and it looks easy enough. The only packaged food I normally buy is mac & cheese, so it's just a matter of giving that up and avoiding certain fruits and veggies. So we'll give that a try.
I also did some reading on magnesium deficiency and that sounds even more promising since the latest (and worst to date) spell of not sleeping has definitely included anxiety AND it began immediately after he finished two rounds of antibioics for nasty back-to-back ear infections and antibitotics deplete magnesium.
I'll update y'all in a few weeks.
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Sarah
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Maybe you've already thought about this too:
ds could be hearing something the during the night, like the hot water heater, dishwasher, etc. Maybe you could run a fan. We sleep better with a fan to drown out noise and I make sure the fan is not hitting us so we won't wake from too much "wind."
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krgammel
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I am sympathetic! My ds (8) has been an insomniac since birth! We looked at EVERYTHING for years! Finally a Pediatrician said to me "You are going to have to accept that some children are wired differently and yours is one of them!"  As bad as it sounds, we finally let him fall asleep watching videos. At age 5 a childs nighttime prayer video with the rosary did the trick nearly everynight. Now, there have been many difficult nights between but it worked for a good while!
I think you just have to handle it like all the other "phases" they experience and do what works at the time. Now at least he is able to stay in his bed and read if he can't sleep!
Have you ever tried Lavender?
Baby Magic has a wonderful Lavender bedtime lotion that seems very calming. We've done that. I also have put a drop of lavender oil on his pillowcase.
Sometimes a cup of Celestial Seasonings Sleepytime Tea is helpful as well.
Good luck finding the right stuff-
You have my prayers, it can be VERY FRUSTRATING.
Feel free to pm me if you need to vent further!
+Kristen
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mary
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krgammel wrote:
| Finally a Pediatrician said to me "You are going to have to accept that some children are wired differently and yours is one of them!" |
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i totally agree with this. i have 3 kids - one who sleeps normally. it was such a shock to us that we nicknamed him coma boy. despite the name, he doesn't sleep nearly as much as most kids i know. my other two require very little sleep and if i forced the issue, it led to frustration. i don't need to look far for a the cause - i require 6 hours of sleep generally and often get up in the middle of the night to enjoy the peace and quiet. my mother is the same way.
i hope you discover what works best for your family because sleep issues are very frustrating!
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KC in TX
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SaraP wrote:
I have asked him why he can't sleep and he says that he "can't wind down" and has "too many plans in his head to go to sleep".
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My son is like this and it is caused by his sensory integration problems. Maybe you might want to look into that. It takes him at least an hour to wind down and fall asleep. Sometimes if I do have the time to work with him and get him calm before bed he can fall asleep faster. As he has become older he has been able to get into bed and stay, but it is still a constant battle. I haven't read all the responses after the above, but this really popped out at me.
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ladybugs
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| Posted: May 18 2006 at 9:19am | IP Logged
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My oldest dd is like this...
Can I just say...swimming?
Swimming seems to tire her out in a way that nothing else can....not to mention, we all have fun!
Of course, we've tried to eliminate food dyes, MSG, and now we're working on high fructose corn syrup...making sure none of the juices I buy have it....
Just what has worked from here....sometimes, that cup of Sleepytime, too and a bath....
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Maria P
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krgammel
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ladybugs wrote:
Can I just say...swimming?
Swimming seems to tire her out in a way that nothing else can....not to mention, we all have fun!
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Yep!  I second that! The colder, the better! Works like a charm. Thanks for that reminder. A good day in a sprinkler worked well with ds when he was younger.
+Kristen
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Topic: child who can’t sleep
