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Elizabeth
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Lissa has posted about the new
Latin Centered curriculum . I never thought of myself as a classical educator but I definitely saw our home in this quote:
one might begin the day with lessons in Latin and math; follow those studies with fine read-alouds in fiction, history, science, or poetry (perhaps rotating through several books in the course of the week, and having the child narrate some of the readings); and leave the rest of the day open for free play, nature walks, art, music, and curling up with good books.
What are the benefits to approaching education this way when one is living a Real Learning way of life?
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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mumofsix
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There is a definite benefit in using Latin as a vehicle for teaching language arts "subjects" such as vocabulary and grammar. Not only is this economical in time but it also makes better sense to young children to learn about, for example, grammar in context, rather than as a separate subject - that is too abstract for many young children.
Since I love Latin I am all for placing it centre stage in the curriculum: it has a broad appeal, pleasing the logical child who likes ordering puzzles and also the creative child who will understand more about derivation of words, history, mythology, etc.
It is very appropriate for Catholics. Latin is still the language of the Church and always will be, as any alternative would be too culturally biased. All encyclicals, for example, are published first in Latin, as is the liturgy.
I have doubts about the writing part: will this Latin Centered Curriculum rely exclusively on imitation in teaching writing? And won't that be very dull?
Interesting topic: I look forward to the responses.
Jane.
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Lissa
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Yes, Elizabeth, I too was struck by how Real-Learningish  all the Latin-Centered Ed sites are--in contrast to SWB's method which seems a horse of a different color. Made me think too of MacBeth's great line: "classical unschoolers in the Charlotte Mason tradition." Focusing on just the two (or three, with Greek) main subjects, math & Latin, as the center and focus of disciplined study, with so much freedom for other pursuits, either structured or child-led, seems quite a comfortable balance. And as you point out, really is pretty much the same thing we've been doing all along (although I started out with German instead of Latin, and coincidentallly made the shift to Latin not long before I stumbled across all the LCE articles).
Jane, I've ordered "Classical Writing" which is supposed to follow the progymnasmata, a series of writing exercises, I think? I never heard of it until recently and still don't know how to pronounce it. I'll post more when I've read the book...am always interested to see how people approach composition. I think I tend to be too cavalier about it, since hubby and I are both writing all the time and perhaps make the mistake of assuming the kids will pick up the knack by osmosis....  
Elizabeth, I'm so glad you started a thread on this. I was about to right after I wrote that blog post, but had to run out the door before I had a chance.
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JSchaaf
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Wasn't this (Latin Centered Classical) the kind of education Charlotte Mason received? Correct me if I'm way off base here!
Jennifer
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mumofsix
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Lissa - pro jim nas muh tuh, with the accent on nas!
I am very much looking forward to your thoughts on "Classical Writing".
Jane.
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mumofsix
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Jennifer, I am not certain of this (Kathryn?) but I am pretty sure Charlotte Mason's education would have been of the Latin centred classical model (or the classical classical model if you will ) simply because most educated English people of her time would have received such an education.
In which case, as she is well known as an educational innovator, there will be crucial differences between classical classical education and a Charlotte Mason education ...
I feel ill equipped to tease any of that out, but would be fascinated if anyone else can.
Jane.
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Lissa
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mumofsix wrote:
| In which case, as she is well known as an educational innovator, there will be crucial differences between classical classical education and a Charlotte Mason education ... |
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Hee!
This just keeps getting interestinger...
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Leonie
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mumofsix wrote:
| In which case, as she is well known as an educational innovator, there will be crucial differences between classical classical education and a Charlotte Mason education ... |
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I am ill equipped to discuss this to any great degree but I have always thought of CM as adding a breath of fresh air to a clssical education. Perhaps some of the traditional classical/Latin centred education had become stale - maybe in its practice within schools? And it was this to which CM reacted, not the classical/Latin centred curriculm per se?
Hmm....
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Elizabeth
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I was not all that impressed with Cheryl Lowe's apology. It seemed too sweeping to me, but I'm the first to admit that I'm not a student of classical languages and so might not be able to understand well the virtues she attributed to the study of Latin above all else. This quote, in particular, troubled me:
Furthermore, students have a very difficult time studying their own language, which they use instinctively. Students have grown up with their own language. They take it for granted. They are bored by it. They are amazingly reluctant to analyze it because they can already put it to practical use.
This is not my own experience, nor is it the experience I've witnessed in my children. They delight in their native language. They love to hear it read aloud. As they begin to write--even at very young ages--they look for just the right turn of phrase, almost as naturally as they breathe. My 7yo astounds me with his nuances and his near-perfect comedic timing. For my 11 yo, English grammar is akin to word games.Since Latin is new to us this year (save the year Michael had when he was about 11), none of this joy in language can be attributed to Latin.
Now, I do truly see the benefit in learning Latin, despite my reluctance. I was motivated to begin our family study this year when we switched parishes. There is a little Latin sprinkled throughout our masses, but I have a strong sense that just as soon as the universal indult is granted, we will have a traditional Latin Mass. I'd like to be a little ahead of the learning curve.
And I do see the logic and the order to it all. I  order, so it's a happy thing with which to begin our day. In all honesty, though, we begin with math and Latin so that I'm not tempted to blow it off and go outside.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JennGM
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Thanks for the link, Lissa and the great thread, Elizabeth. Is anyone going to read Andrew Campbell's book "Latin Centered curriculum"? I'm anxious to hear reviews.
Lissa's post really hit home here
Unlike the neoclassical approach to education favored by Susan Wise Bauer and Laura Berquist (whose books I consider extremely useful resources but whose systems or curricula strike me as bucket-filling instead of fire-lighting),
I've been looking at various Classical approaches and nothing seemed right...it was a bit dry and like Lissa says "bucket-filling". When I read some of CM's approach and Real Learning it was a breath of fresh air to me. I still want to incorporate some of the classical approach, but not in the same manner as Laura Berquist.
So I'll be eagerly reading a bit further on this...Thanks!
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Cay Gibson
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I had to completely turn away from the classical approach with my two boys.
The classical approach is me, but it's not them. Unschooling worked with the oldest. It's a shame it took me till his 12th grade year to realize that. I ridiculously enrolled him in a liberal arts curriculum his 11th grade year. It did not work. 
My second ds is also an unschooler but he has a love/hate relationship with workbooks. He hates them, but it's the only way he learns things outside the realm of real learning...which only includes sport statistics, golfing techniques, etc. Hard to explain, but I've figured it out with him.
My girls are rigorous, classical, liberal arts style. Perhaps I can indulge with them.  I
I'm anxious to delve into this discussion more...once I find time to play catch-up. 
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Christine
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Elizabeth wrote:
This quote, in particular, troubled me:
Furthermore, students have a very difficult time studying their own language, which they use instinctively. Students have grown up with their own language. They take it for granted. They are bored by it. They are amazingly reluctant to analyze it because they can already put it to practical use.
This is not my own experience, nor is it the experience I've witnessed in my children. They delight in their native language. They love to hear it read aloud. As they begin to write--even at very young ages--they look for just the right turn of phrase, almost as naturally as they breathe. My 7yo astounds me with his nuances and his near-perfect comedic timing. For my 11 yo, English grammar is akin to word games.Since Latin is new to us this year (save the year Michael had when he was about 11), none of this joy in language can be attributed to Latin. |
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I wonder whether what Cheryl Lowe says is somehow related to a child's temperament or learning style.
My seven-year-old daughter, who I struggle to teach, enjoys studying the English language, loves to read and be read to, and enjoys watching "fun" language videos (she can change her accent very easily). She likes listening to Latin music, but she does not like the Prima Latina DVD or the workbook. In fact, except for English, she does not like workbooks at all. She would spend all day reading, requesting a read-aloud, writing stories, singing, dancing, drawing or making things, if I let her. She delights both in the English language and in foreign languages (At dinner the other night, she informed us that she wants to learn sign language ~ I think she may have read Lissa's article in the last issue of Heart and Mind). She is the reason I am on this forum.
My older daughter, who likes workbooks and does not seem to have a well-trained ear, really enjoys Prima Latina, both the DVD and workbook. She reads and writes well, likes listening to read-alouds, but groans when learning grammar, diagramming, etc. I don't know if it's because she would benefit from learning the subject outside the context of a workbook or because she just doesn't see the necessity of learning it. I tend to think it might be the latter, as she likes Phonics and, as I mentioned previously, the Prima Latina workbook.
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BrendaPeter
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I'm so tickled that so many here are discovering Latin-Centered Curriculum all at the same time. As I'm reading the articles, I find myself saying "Oh, that's what so & so on 4realearning does. Oh & that reminds me of so & so on the 4reallearning boards..." It's amazing to find something that incorporates classical, CM, real learning, unschooling, etc.
I'm very attracted to it for the simple reason that it's something that can work for my large, young & active (i.e. chaotic  ) family. That is, we can get our Latin, Math & maybe Writing done in the morning & spend the rest of the day Reading & Real Learning. That's probably what lots of you already do. For some reason, I've just needed to have someone tell me it's ok to do that ...
I found the FAQ list from the LatinClassicalEd Yahoo group very helpful. I particularly loved this quote:
"R. M. Wenley...illustrated the rigors entailed even in simple
translation from an example lent by a former teacher of his,
George G. Ramsay. Taking the simple two-word Latin sentence
'Vellum mortuos' ('I would that they were dead'), Ramsay observed
that understanding this sentence aright requires fourteen intellectual
turns. 'A student must know (1) the person, (2) tense, (3) voice,
(4) number, (5) mood of the verb vellum, (6) that it comes from volo,
meaning (7) I wish; and that (8) the subjunctive has here a particular
shade of meaning. As to mortuos, he must know that it is (9) the
accusative, (10) plural, (11) masculine, from (12) mortuus, meaning
(13) dead; (14) the reason why the accusative is necessary.' [...]
Can anyone seriously maintain that such stiff training in just
expression leaves no salutary marks upon the intellect of someone
who, having successfully run its gauntlet, becomes captive to the
habits of the precise mind?" (Climbing Parnassus, p. 177)
Talk about BANG FOR YOU BUCK!!!
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I read the book in it's rough draft form... it was very good
I am waiting, however, on the real deal before making any big comment.
I think my favourite aspect of the book though, is that it encourages you to put the focus on the two most important lessons... (or three if you prefer) and on the bad days, you HAVE to do those... and on the good days, you get to do SO much more
I think we benefit from our modern perspective... we know that the classical method does not work for every child... but this method allows for a great deal of adjustment according to the child
Drew is a big advocate of things such as the Progym, studying Christianity (if ONLY to understand our own history... so everyone should study it) and learning from a culture that is hugely responsible for the building blocks of our modern government.
He suggests a 6 year rotation in history... but you are studying two eras at any one time (usually in the Classical Christian and the American and Modern sections).
His design is based on Highland's Latin School, if that helps
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Lissa
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BrendaPeter wrote:
| I'm so tickled that so many here are discovering Latin-Centered Curriculum all at the same time. As I'm reading the articles, I find myself saying "Oh, that's what so & so on 4realearning does. Oh & that reminds me of so & so on the 4reallearning boards..." It's amazing to find something that incorporates classical, CM, real learning, unschooling, etc. |
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Brenda, I'm having the exact same reaction. LCE wasn't on my radar at ALL until I heard about a school opening down the road from us, a 3-day-a-week Latin-centered private school which will follow the Highlands Latin School model. (I understand that Cheryl Lowe has provided advice and support for the founders.) I was so intrigued by the curriculum and vision of this new school that I started poking around, and that's what led me to the various LCE sites. And suddenly everyone else is talking about it too! LOL, it's everywhere I look. I guess it's because of Drew's book coming out?
I almost feel guilty about this new school...it's literally ten minutes from my door, and they're working hard to drum up students...they need 8 to open, are capping enrollment at 12 (6th-8th grade, this first year, to study in a mixed-age classroom), and aren't sure they're even going to get the 8 they need. And here I am with a rising 6th grader and an enthusiasm for Latin-centered education. Even the 3 day school week is geared toward attracting homeschoolers...I think if it were TWO days, I might be tempted. But then I'd miss out on the fun myself...and anyway, the unschooler in me tends to be pretty protective of my kids' free time. So alas for the new school, I can't give them my Kate.
I do hope they get enough kids to open, though.
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~Rachel~
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Lissa wrote:
I almost feel guilty about this new school...it's literally ten minutes from my door, and they're working hard to drum up students...they need 8 to open, are capping enrollment at 12 (6th-8th grade, this first year, to study in a mixed-age classroom), and aren't sure they're even going to get the 8 they need. And here I am with a rising 6th grader and an enthusiasm for Latin-centered education. Even the 3 day school week is geared toward attracting homeschoolers...I think if it were TWO days, I'd be seriously tempted.
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I was tempted... we're a little closer to Richmond than Charlottesville though, and DS is too young... but the school sounds really good! I hope they make it, it would be nice to see some schools following this method out there!
And as for the LCE buzz... I think it has everything to do with Drew's book coming out we've been waiting AGES!
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Kathryn UK
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A bit on CM and classical education ... in CM's day British public schools (ie. private schools for the rich) taught an almost exclusively classical curriculum based on Latin and Greek and classical texts read in the original languages.
[Aside: When I first encountered Susan Wise Bauer and Laura Bergquist I was baffled by their version of "classical" education as it is so different from the usual British classical model - which is much more along the lines of Latin Centred Education]
Anyway, I digress ... CM was not an enthusiast of the Latin / Greek centred model of education. I can't remember why, and I also can't remember where to find the reference in her books, which isn't much help! She did advocate the teaching of Latin, but she put more emphasis on modern languages. Parents' Union School students routinely studied four languages - French, Latin, German and Italian - and more time was spent on foreign language than any other part of the curriculum, at least by older students. CM also included some classical studies, such as Plutarch and ancient history, but they were not a central part of her curriculum. She was in many ways a modernist rather than a classicist, and liked to include quite cutting edge material in her curriculum. For example, there was a book on World War I in there while the war was still in progress; she also introduced Baden Powell's Scouting Handbook before the scouting movement was invented.
So no, CM was not a Latin-Centred Education person or a classicist. Although she saw benefits in both Latin and classical studies, there were many other aspects of the curriculum she rated as at least equally important.
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I seem to recall that CM was of the opinion that Latin was a 'dead' language and it was much more logical to study a modern language (in her case French) than to study Latin. I think it is in book one that she speaks of it...
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~Rachel~
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FROM CM VOLUME 1:
Grammar a Difficult Study.––Of grammar, Latin and English, I shall say very little here. In the first place, grammar, being a study of words and not of things, is by no means attractive to the child, nor should he be hurried into it. English grammar, again, depending as it does on the position and logical connection of words, is peculiarly hard for him to grasp. In this respect the Latin grammar is easier; a change in the form, the shape of the word, to denote case, is what a child can see with his bodily eye, and therefore is plainer to him than the abstract ideas of nominative and objective case as we have them in English. Therefore, if he learns no more at this early stage than the declensions and a verb or two, it is well he should learn thus much, if only to help him to see what English grammar would be at when it speaks of a change in case or mood, yet shows no change in the form of a word.
Latin Grammar.––Of the teaching of Latin grammar, I think I cannot do better than mention a book for beginners that really answers. Children of eight and nine take to this First Latin Course (Scott and Jones) very kindly, and it is a great thing to begin a study with pleasure. It is an open question, however, whether it is desirable to begin Latin at so early an age.
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StephanieA
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We have tried Latin on and off during our 13 years of homeschooling. My high school boys have done Latina Christiana 1 and 2 and Henle's and the next one did Schola Latina. The real problem is that I don't know Latin well-enough myself. Yes, I can study the earlier Latin easily enough with the younger children. And one year I made it through 1/3 of Henle's with my oldest son. However, I have found that if you don't continue it every year, you loose it. This so discouraging when my second began Henle's. I couldn't remember the 4th declensions and was back to where I began 3 years earlier. This time though I had a newborn and no time to study an hour on my own again.
Luckily algebra and literature aren't like this :)
It is very helpful if the children can use at least some of the Latin, so we have memorized prayers and Schola Latina has conversations that my 3rd son and I memorized and spoke to each other throughout the day.
We are going against the tide this year and study Spanish. I hope to do this as a family just as LCC would be taught. While I am on classical lists, and I WILL learn Latin one day WELL (maybe by the time baby #8 is 10 or so :), I need a change this year . I think the use of ANY second language is mind-expansive.
My sisters (ages 20 and 24) speak several languages fluently and have traveled Europe talking all the way :)
Latin holds a special place in my heart because it the official language of the Church. We also have an occasional oppportunity to attend the Latin Mass, so it is very nice to know the prayers, etc.
Another option is to purchase Latina Angelica and learn the songs. One year all of us sang "Adeste Fideles" at our extended family Christmas get-together. I plan to study at least a song a month with the middle kids this year. Well, I guess I am not "giving it up" after all.
Blessings,
Stephanie
DS ages 18, 16, 14 and DD 11, 8, 5, and 2 and expecting a wee one
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4Real Forums : Philosophy of Education
Topic: Latin Centered Curriculum
