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MichelleM
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Mare wrote:
I never really thought of myself as a <gulp> "liberal Catholic" but in light of this conversation, I believe I am in this forum. 
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Don't take it too hard! 
I try not to worry too much as to how others may perceive me.
Some people claim I'm too liberal.(Not necessarily on this forum, just in general.) I'm sitting here in my favorite jeans, wearing make-up. I have great respect for authors such as Christopher West. I also promote the New Feminism. ENDOW I've been known on occasion to attend a LifeTeen Mass. I support our Bishop & the Holy Father. To some, these things would imply that I'm a "Liberal Catholic".
Still others would say I'm too conservative. I'm Pro-Life. I believe in the True Presence. I homeschool & have a large family. I don't contracept. I support an all male Priesthood. I support our Bishop & the Holy Father.  To many, these things imply I'm just plain wacko! 
So what is the truth? I prefer to say I'm Catholic and well within the bounds of orthodoxy. Very likely you are too! 
Blessings,
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Molly Smith
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Elizabeth wrote:
| But more importantly, we got cassocks--the dress of a priest. Girls are not allowed to wear cassocks. |
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Elizabeth, we just switched to cassocks recently--right around the same time the patens (sp?) were reintroduced. This factor never occurred to me--about girls not being allowed to wear them. I haven't heard a comment from our pastor yet, although I think he'll stick with only male servers. However, prior to his coming two and half years ago, we had a VERY (unbelievably) liberal pastor and associate and there are many liberal leaning folks in our parish who will most certainly put the pressure on the current pastor.
Here's a point a dear friend of mine made to me yesterday, and I'll be curious to hear comments here. She knows two girls from her prior parish who are really called to a vocation and truly want to serve God by serving at Mass. There aren't many opportunities for girls to participate at Mass--ushering is about it. And there aren't many convents nearby or religious sisters in our parishes, so how to we foster a vocation in these very called girls? I know that's a different point from just allowing girls in general to serve, so feel free to move it to a new thread.
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Christine
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A nun does not serve at Mass, so why would being an altar girl foster a vocation to the religious life?
Girls in our parish do things that nuns might do. They sing in the choir, have held bake sales and cleaned the church. The girls see the moms organizing dinners and potlucks. They hear and see how beautifully some of the ladies in our parish polish the tabernacle, iron the altar linens and arrange flowers. They, along with the boys, spend at least fifteen minutes in Adoration each week, during Catechism class. My children spend an hour in Adoration every First Friday. They read and listen to stories of the saints. They are members of Little Flowers. My oldest daughter, who has wanted to be a nun since age 5, writes to a Poor Clare monastery (she suggested doing so). We go to daily Mass when possible and we pray the Rosary each night as a family. I pray that my children are open to a vocation to the priesthood or religious life, if that is where God calls them.
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guitarnan
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My dad's cousin was the church cleaner and sacristan at her parish for decades. She loved making sure the church was dust-free and that all the altar linens were perfect. I could see an altar girl eventually shifting to that kind of service to a parish.
In most of the parishes I've belonged to, we've had altar girls. Where I live now, we have one altar girl and seven altar boys. That's it. We're often lucky to have one altar server (of any type) at Mass on Sunday. Such is the fate of a tiny parish.
I've changed parishes every two or three years since dh joined the Navy. We've seen a lot of different ways to run a parish. One thing I've never seen is a parish that allows altar-server-aged children get involved in any other aspect of parish service, except as part of a "Youth Mass" or some such event. Kids can't be lectors, or ushers, and are often excluded from music ministry unless the parish is either really small or really huge, large enough for a youth choir.
So, Molly's point makes me think that perhaps, if we're trying to encourage boys to become altar servers, we might also need to think of other ways girls can serve, and not just cleaning the church or babysitting in the nursery. Although those tasks do need to be done, they shouldn't be dumped solely on the girls.
Back in my grandma's time, parishes all had Altar Societies, dedicated to keeping the worship space beautiful and to raising money for replacement of worn items. Couldn't there be a way to structure something like this for our young people to participate in?
I guess I see it like this. It's definitely better to have male altar servers, and I think it does relate to future vocations. But, as a female Catholic, I can also understand the needs of all young people to feel welcomed when they offer their gifts and talents in service to God's Church. We, as adult Catholics, probably need to work with pastors and, no doubt, bishops, to find ways to encourage our young people to offer service to the Church, and to find ways to accept these offers in the most appropriate ways.
There's nothing that hurts worse than to offer yourself in service and to be told, "Sorry, we don't need you."
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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JennGM
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I agree with Christine. In most convents the nuns don't serve as altar servers, but they are terrific sacristans! Remember the Rosary Altar Societies? The women did the altar linens, flowers, cleaned, and prayed for the church.
I guess some would rebel, but a woman's natural role in her vocations (wife, mother, nun) is nurturing and ministerial, but many times behind the scenes. You know the old saying "the woman behind the man." Feminism has crept into our thinking to balk at the hidden roles, to downplay the importance and to gain more public roles.
The skills that would be so wonderful to nurture are gardening, flower arranging, embroider and sewing altar linens, cleaning and pressing linens, even vestments. "Cleaning" is a general term, but special skills I think are needed to shine brass and silver. And what a privilege to be working with items that come in contact with Our Lord.
Then there's the liturgy--planning the readings, lector, music. I worked with the Church for years as an organist in different ways, my mother led choirs, sang as a cantor.
This discussion harkens back to the thread "What Has Changed?" We've lost our natural nurturing roles and teachers to give us example and guidance...so we're grasping at straws!
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guitarnan
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Wouldn't it be wonderful if parishes could have a Mary Garden to help keep the church filled with beautiful flowers? What a nice place it would be, too, to sit and pray or study.
Jenn, you're right, there are so many ways for people to contribute...but I'm still wondering how we can plant the seeds for these contributions while our girls are young. As you say, it's a privilege to work with the sacred vessels and altar linens...but somehow, in many parishes, we've lost that feeling of privilege.
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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MacBeth
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JennGM wrote:
Remember the Rosary Altar Societies?
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Goodness, our RAS is huge! Do other churches no longer have them?
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guitarnan
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Uh...well...some do, I guess...maybe it's a curse and they fall apart wherever I go...
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Nancy in MD. Mom of ds (24) & dd (18); 31-year Navy wife, move coordinator and keeper of home fires. Writer and dance mom.
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MacBeth
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guitarnan wrote:
| One thing I've never seen is a parish that allows altar-server-aged children get involved in any other aspect of parish service, except as part of a "Youth Mass" or some such event. Kids can't be lectors, or ushers, and are often excluded from music ministry unless the parish is either really small or really huge, large enough for a youth choir. |
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Libby has just been hired as Cantor in our parish, and has been helping with the music at several parishes for years. Young people are often lectors here, and not just for the children's Mass. It never ceases to amaze me how different things are in other parishes around the country. (not taking you to task, Nancy ...just hope it's not an overall curse )
guitarnan wrote:
| There's nothing that hurts worse than to offer yourself in service and to be told, "Sorry, we don't need you." |
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But if the service offered is not an officially sanctioned service (perhaps I am not wording this in proper church terms...forgive me), then offering that service is a set-up for that hurt. We need to be informed of the appropriate roles of the laity in the church, and language that muddles these roles is not helpful.
This is where a breakdown of communication between the laity and the Vatican, often via the Bishops, is a problem. The rule on altar girls was (and is, universally) clearly that the job is reserved for boys unless there are no boys available. Simply telling girls that they could now be altar servers without a full explanation of the limited nature of their service, does a disservice to both the girls and boys, and changes the nature of the dispensation. No girl has the absolute right to be an altar server, just as no lay person has the absolute right to be an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion. I know it sounds simple, but when one loses the precise language behind the changes, people change the meaning of the decree to suit themselves (I do not mean that any of here has done this...I am speaking in general terms). Perhaps this is because a Bishop had not made the entire statement clear; perhaps it is because some people heard only what they want to hear. Perhaps the mistakes are honest; perhaps they are deliberate (and then, not mistakes at all  ).
The question of girl-appropriate service is an interesting one. Time for a new topic?
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MacBeth in NY
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Elizabeth
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MacBeth wrote:
This is where a breakdown of communication between the laity and the Vatican, often via the Bishops, is a problem. The rule on altar girls was (and is, universally) clearly that the job is reserved for boys unless there are no boys available. Simply telling girls that they could now be altar servers without a full explanation of the limited nature of their service, does a disservice to both the girls and boys, and changes the nature of the dispensation. No girl has the absolute right to be an altar server, just as no lay person has the absolute right to be an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion. I know it sounds simple, but when one loses the precise language behind the changes, people change the meaning of the decree to suit themselves (I do not mean that any of here has done this...I am speaking in general terms). Perhaps this is because a Bishop had not made the entire statement clear; perhaps it is because some people heard only what they want to hear. Perhaps the mistakes are honest; perhaps they are deliberate (and then, not mistakes at all ). ? |
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A great example of this is the norms put forth by our bishop and linked by Jenn. I read it to say that there should be more girls than boys and that the boys who are currently serving should be encouraged to stay but it doesn't come right out and say, "Reserve this for when there is a shortage of boys." Instead, it says: girls can be servers when "it is determined that the use of female servers would be of pastoral advantage in the local situation of the parish." That's a very broad brushstroke, open to all kinds of interpretation. I can think of a local parish where the administrator has openly said that, in his local situation, women should have "more equal" role in the Church and that he was eager to see the bishop allow girls to serve. This same priest allows the music director to sing parts of the gospel. Interestingly, he is also a priest who will not allow a statue of the Blessed Mother in the sanctuary and has said that he would not put such a statue in a Church if he were building it. It does make me stop and wonder just what role he sees women playing. There is not place of honor for the greatest woman of all time and our ultimate maternal role model, but we need to see girls and women at the altar...
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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abcmommy
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I am a little confused on several points, but I admit and enjoy being a very liberal catholic.;)
1. if your child's perception of serving Mass is that it's babyish or girly, the problem is not girls on the altar but your child's view of his task.
2. I grew up in the Arlington Diocese (IIRC its the same diocese- I was in Warrenton VA) and we had girls serving mass as early as maybe...1990? So what is new? I am confused. My home parish of St Johns didnt have any girls IIRC but my cousin attended on post of Vint Hill and they did have some girls.
3. I dont know the difference between cassocks and robes but I know that under both most kids are fully clothed, so Im not sure what the changing room issue might be. WRT perfume, do most young girls wear perfume? Don't the robes get washed?
4. Whether or not they are modest or neat or clean under the robe isnt really relevant to me as long as they are there in the right spirit of love for the Lord. young kids need parental guidance and in lieu of that the church community can do its best to encourage every child to serve while dressed as appropriately as possible, even if his or her clothing isnt as well monitored at home as it should be. Young people make mistakes in dress. As toddlers they combine colors poorly and wear mismatched socks. In young adulthood they choose poorly due to peer pressure and lack of parental boundaries and just plain bad taste. While this is obviously not ideal, it shouldnt interfere with their ability to love mass and serve God and the church. I offer up as an example my beloved friend from childhood -Adam (who we fondly called pigpen) he is a very kind and warm person, who comes from a larger catholic family of devout parents. he was a terrible slob who served mass with untied shoes and smudged pants. God probably didnt mind (and neither did the congregation) bc good old Adam's heart was definitely in the right place.
5. as a kid my habit was to sit in mass and pass judgement on people's clothing choices and how people looked. Pretty judgemental and pretty sinful. I found myself commenting to my dh recently about how one of the catachumens was dressed (her jeans were quite low as she knelt before the congregation)and then suddenly realised my interest in her way of dressing was really as much about me as it was about her, and maybe that is something I need to work on in terms of being a bit too judgemental about something as silly as what other people wear when clearly there is plenty of sin (probably a lot worse than lack of modesty if I want to confess it) in my own shrivelled little heart.
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abcmommy
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Coming back to say...
I find it sort of irritating as the mom of a girl to hear "Your dd can clean up the church if she wants to be involved."
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kingvozzo
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Elizabeth wrote:
MacBeth wrote:
This is where a breakdown of communication between the laity and the Vatican, often via the Bishops, is a problem. The rule on altar girls was (and is, universally) clearly that the job is reserved for boys unless there are no boys available. |
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A great example of this is the norms put forth by our bishop and linked by Jenn. I read it to say that there should be more girls than boys and that the boys who are currently serving should be encouraged to stay but it doesn't come right out and say, "Reserve this for when there is a shortage of boys." Instead, it says: girls can be servers when "it is determined that the use of female servers would be of pastoral advantage in the local situation of the parish." That's a very broad brushstroke, open to all kinds of interpretation. I can think of a local parish where the administrator has openly said that, in his local situation, women should have "more equal" role in the Church and that he was eager to see the bishop allow girls to serve. |
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I know that when the clarification about altar servers came out, (was it in the GIRM?) the bishops wrote a response. We were told, on the parish level, that we were to follow the bishops' response, which was written with much more broad language than the Vatican document. So much more so, that it was a real source of debate on my parish Liturgy Comm. It was almost like we were reading different documents.
I'm pretty sure that stuff is up in my attic. If I get a chance to track it down, I will post it here.
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JennGM
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kingvozzo wrote:
| I know that when the clarification about altar servers came out, (was it in the GIRM?) the bishops wrote a response. We were told, on the parish level, that we were to follow the bishops' response, which was written with much more broad language than the Vatican document. So much more so, that it was a real source of debate on my parish Liturgy Comm. It was almost like we were reading different documents. |
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Oh, yes! In the documents on the Year of the Eucharist, JPII encouraged everyone to study the new GIRM. I'm still waiting for the implementations as it should be done.
From the secular paper in Lincoln comes this story: Lincoln Diocese alone in not allowing girls to be altar servers
BY BOB REEVES.
Amazing. This is from the secular paper.
In upholding the traditional practice, Lincoln Bishop Fabian Bruskewitz is in agreement with a 2004 Vatican instruction that praised the use of only males as altar servers. According to that instruction, "it is altogether laudable to maintain the noble custom" of altar-serving duties being limited to males. "Nor should it be forgotten that a great number of sacred ministers over the course of centuries have come from among boys such as these."
This is the same instruction that Loverde is using in his regulations to ADD altar girls. How can you have such different conclusions?
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Jennifer G. Miller
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Elizabeth
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JennGM wrote:
The skills that would be so wonderful to nurture are gardening, flower arranging, embroider and sewing altar linens, cleaning and pressing linens, even vestments. "Cleaning" is a general term, but special skills I think are needed to shine brass and silver. And what a privilege to be working with items that come in contact with Our Lord.
Then there's the liturgy--planning the readings, lector, music. I worked with the Church for years as an organist in different ways, my mother led choirs, sang as a cantor.
This discussion harkens back to the thread "What Has Changed?" We've lost our natural nurturing roles and teachers to give us example and guidance...so we're grasping at straws! |
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I think you're on to something here, Jenn. And I am reminded that Maria Montessori made the same connection with this work and liturgy and worship in her atria. Children find an inherent satisfaction in all of these things in the atria. They gravitate to brass polishing and flower arranging. Not just girls, but boys too, will find hours of contemplative satisfaction. I've witnessed it. Perhaps it is our society that looks down upon these tasks and so has taught its children that such tasks are not valuable.
For months, at our former parish, I gathered the altar linens every week and brought them home to wash and iron them. I very much enjoyed the task (and I'm not a big fan of laundry). When the job was opened to other people, there were more than enough volunteers and no one ever seemed to think it a disdainful task. Indeed, we took pride in the loveliness of the linens and we were glad for this way to serve. Most of those women were also catechists, lectors, and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist. But I don't think they ever thought that the altar linens or flower arranging were lesser jobs.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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JennGM
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abcmommy wrote:
| I find it sort of irritating as the mom of a girl to hear "Your dd can clean up the church if she wants to be involved." |
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If you mean by the comment that the cleaning is a menial task and she's not worthy for others, then yes, that's insulting.
But for me, cleaning is an art and I love the satisfaction of doing it well. I would love the task of cleaning our church! Call me twisted! It's FILTHY. It's never cleaned to my satisfaction.
In fact, last Sunday ds broke out in hives from contact with the pew...there must have been some food allergens from some little hands.
We just lost our sacristan of 24 years to lung cancer. There was an example to behold: 12 priests concelebrating her Mass, 12 children, she a widow with her youngest only 2 years old, single mom raising 12 children! Sacristan is only one part of what she did, because she did everything.... Her witness, charity, affection and faith was just so wonderful. I have always wanted her job...she was always in our Lord's Presence.
So we look at life differently!
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guitarnan
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Jenn, come on up!
We all take turns as families cleaning the church, kitchen, bathrooms and classroom. (Sacristy is off limits. ???) I get mad when people haven't treated our worship space or other facilities with respect. However, when I offered to donate updated (read "functional") cleaning tools to the church, I wasn't exactly encouraged to do so. I just bring them when it's my turn. My son does a great job helping; my daughter will wash windows and floors but otherwise thinks the work is no fun at all.
It does, indeed, take all kinds of people to fulfill all the parish's needs. What upsets me is when our young people WANT to sing, play instruments, lector, etc., have demonstrated that they have the talent to do so appropriately and reverently, and somehow aren't allowed to contribute their talents. We currently have this going on in our parish; I've tried so hard to convince the parish administration that the teens should be not only allowed but invited...and it doesn't happen. Now the teens in question are asking their dad (Protestant, divorced from mom) to take them to his church because they are welcomed there. It's not as though we have dozens of talented singers wanting to get up there each week, either.
Sorry to rant. I have been involved in music ministry since I was a girl, and I know it kept me coming to Mass every single week (usually two or three times a weekend) while in college. It's not just a matter of encouraging future vocations, although that is extremely important. It's a matter of conveying the message that our young Catholics are part of the parish and can, as appropriate, be part of the ministries for which they are qualified, as Church instructions permit.
(Side note: MacBeth, you are so right. Many times people either don't know how to properly read Church documents and instructions, or misinterpret them and don't know how to find out what the instructions really say. Communication is essential. I'm planning on doing my part by teaching my children to read encyclicals, etc., just as I was taught in high school.)
Personally, I would love to learn more about flower arranging, creating seasonal banners, etc. No one seems to teach these skills at a parish level in the states I've lived in...how does one learn these things? Are there classes or workshops?
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abcmommy
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JennGM, I could use a leetle touch of yur positive attitude toward cleaning here as we ready our house for showings. I loathe cleaning. I love to bake and sew (when left alone) but I'll leave the pew scrubbing to someone else. Count me in for any bakesales or pitch in dinners.
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ALmom
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Perhaps it would help to realize the great priviledge it is to be a sacristan. It is a dying understanding as it is not simply a task of cleaning. It was awesome to realize that I was in such close contact with our Lord - and it was sometimes extremely sad to see how often, with the proliferation of Extraordinary EM and the use of so many chalices (or glass containers - and the pouring of the precious blood) that there were so many times our Lord was not given due reverence. The purificators that I cleaned were always extremely badly stained and often had to be burned.
When my dd was approaching the age to serve (and we knew that our DRE would approach her about it even though our family does not encourage and would probably not allow our girls to serve) we headed off the whole temptation by talking with her about sacristry work and I got involved and trained to do it (even though I am not a very good cleaner).
My duties included cleaning altar linens (including the corporals, and purificators which must be washed very specially - you cannot put them in your washing machine directly as they often contain stains of precious blood). We rinsed them lovingly by hand in a wash tub we got specifically for this use and then poured the water on our flowers. I often double or triple rinsed due to the excessive staining (perhaps excess scrupilosity on my part).
I also made sure the candles were filled with oil ready for Mass, replaced the tabernacle light, cleaned and refilled holy water fonts, leaving a note for Father to bless more water if we were running low. I also checked to see that supplies of altar wine and hosts were in sufficient quantities for the week - or notified the head sacristan of the shortage.
My dd have never even thought about serving - though our parish is full of female servers. We were not necessarily the best of sacristans - but I will say that it is profoundly spiritual work and also very difficult work when there is carelessness with our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament. (I could not continue with the work and our children did not necessarily want to stay with it long term - but we have never felt slighted, and were profoundly touched by that time of service (even if I did accidently fill the candles with holy water once instead of oil and couldn't manage to figure out how to get stains out of purificators without unduly yellowing them). I have a very deep respect for the ladies who do this behind the scenes.
If you have read A Right to Be Merry, you will see that the most desired work in the convent is sacristry work because of the closeness to our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.
It also might be worthwhile to review JPII document on the Confusion of the role of the laity and the ordained and the abuses that he pointed out in those documents coming out pretty close together. I cannot remember its exact name and have not been able to find my copy. However, it would certainly be worthwhile to read/study "The Lay Members of Christ's Faithful People".
Know this is a hard time for you all in Arlington. It is sad that this only leaves Lincoln as far as I know. We're still waiting on a bishop - no indications of one for our diocese yet. Unfortunately, MacBeth, you are extremely fortunate in your area - most of the rest of the world does not have the kind of things you do - we've had altar girls in our area long before it was actually permitted. We still have in excess of 11 Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist at every Sunday Mass and even a handful at daily Mass with very few daily Mass attendees. And, yes, things tend to be segregated by age though some pastors are working heroicly to try and get more blending so there were times when dd musical talent was not wanted (we wouldn't deal with the silliness of vision teen and the boom boxes, etc. going with that.
Janet
Janet
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Maddie
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| Posted: March 24 2006 at 11:59pm | IP Logged
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Not sure how to use the quote tool, but item #4 of abcmommy said "Whether or not they are modest or neat under the robe isn't really relevant to me as long as they are in the right spirit of love for the Lord." I wish I could speak with the authority of years of theology and quote encyclicals, but I can't. I'm just a mother of several sons, one of whom is a teen. My last post mentioned an experience our family had in a diocese with altar girls. (Interestingly enough the parish was named after Our Lady of Fatima)Sunday Mass was usually out by 11:50am, so our family would often go to the front pew to say the Angelus together. As the sacristy was off to the side of the altar, exiting the sacristy meant crossing passed the altar and the tabernacle. When the curtain to the sacristy was open, all activity within was in plain view. To my horror,as we were saying our Angelus, the altar girl shed her robe in plain sight, revealing clothes similar to those you see on 14th St. in D.C. at night, heels and all. She proceeded to walk passed our Lord and passed my family with not even a hint of blush on her cheeks. I blushed for her, and then I was angry.I was angry with her (she was probably 17-18)and with her parents, and with the Church for not setting down firm standards. How dare this immodesty be present to tempt my husband and son while we are praying before the Blessed Sacrament?!?!  I realize that temptations are everywhere, but must they be in my "safe zone?" What is this girl saying to us by dressing this way? She is asking for attention, yes? By the style of her clothing she is asking us to look first at certain parts of her body! She is tempting my son, who was raised with purity, to look at her, SHE IS CAUSING A NEAR OCCASION OF SIN. Our Lady of Fatima said fashions would be introduced that would gravely offend her Divine Son. I realize the immodest dress under the robe is not the case for all girl servers, I am speaking from my own experience with them.
I also have concerns for our priests, especially the young ones. I know a couple of priests who were approached by women "in love with them" and these priests had to firmly make themselves and their vocation clear to these women. A woman who had these designs in mind could easily cause scandal to our priests, is it fair to put this added burden on them?
As for serving in other ways, I agree, there is so much joy in cleaning the church and caring for the linens. I know an elderly woman who is a multi millionaire who has quietly been cleaning her parish for approx. 25 years and caring for the linens. What humility! She loves being with in His Presence and certainly has adapted the "Little Way."
I guess my point is, it is relevant how they are dressed underneath, clothing says much about a persons spiritual life. I'll admit, I am judgmental when it comes to immodest clothing, it directly affects me especially as a mother. Sadly, two of my sons are at the age of serving, but refuse to serve because our diocese and parish has altar girls. 
__________________
~Maddie~
Wife to my dh and Momma of 9 dear ones
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Dealing with Female Altar Servers
