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folklaur
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| Posted: Oct 06 2008 at 8:17pm | IP Logged
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cactus mouse wrote:
How was it that the devil was "allowed" in Paradise? If Eden was perfect - why did God allow the Devil into it at all? Once the devil was in it, how could it be described as "perfect" or a "paradise"? |
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JennGM wrote:
| Without looking up anything, my first thought even though it was perfect, it's not Heaven. |
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Honestly, I am not trying to beat a dead horse here, I promise. But, this really sounds....strange to me.
Perfection can't have evil. If it was perfect - it couldn't have evil. If it had evil - it was no longer perfect.
And - well....it was not "just a paradise". It WAS Paradise. If Adam and Eve had not sinned, they would not have died, and thus - wouldn't they have spent eternity there? In Paradise? Wasn't it Heaven on Earth?
They were driven out of Paradise, and brought about the consequences of death among other things, because of their sin.
So, it seems to me, there is a lot more to it.
But then again, I could be over-analyzing. It wouldn't be the first time... 
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JennGM
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| Posted: Oct 06 2008 at 9:10pm | IP Logged
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Okay, Laura, just a few questions, because I'm not exactly sure where you're coming from.
Where in Church teaching does it say that Eden was "perfect" and "paradise"? I'm thinking it's words that we apply figuratively, but not necessarily doctrinally.
Eden was a natural goodness, creation as it was intended to be, without evil. I don't read perfection, except on a natural level. And that doesn't mean that evil can't enter in.
But truly it wasn't that evil entered in, but that Adam and Eve were tested, and failed the test, and then death and sin became part of the human condition.
I was rereading section on the Fall in the Catechism and this paragraph jumped out at me:
Quote:
How to read the account of the fall
390 The account of the fall in Genesis 3 uses figurative language, but affirms a primeval event, a deed that took place at the beginning of the history of man. Revelation gives us the certainty of faith that the whole of human history is marked by the original fault freely committed by our first parents. |
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That is key to sorting out your question. How much of the Perfect Paradise and the story of the Fall is figurative?
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Jennifer G. Miller
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JennGM
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| Posted: Oct 06 2008 at 9:22pm | IP Logged
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Laura, I apologize if I sound know-it-all or short with your question. I am not meaning to be...I'm about to go to bed. Truly, I'm asking the question, because I don't know if we must believe it was a paradise or perfect. If you know where I can find that....
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Jennifer G. Miller
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lapazfarm
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| Posted: Oct 06 2008 at 9:57pm | IP Logged
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I think it may be helpful to think of it this way:
If I make a garden and it is perfectly planted, watered, tilled and tended, that does not mean it is not susceptible to disease (corruption) from outside. It is in the very nature of plants to be susceptible to disease (just as humans are by our nature susceptible to the corruption of sin).
The garden of Eden may have been perfect, but Satan was not part of the garden. He came from outside it to corrupt it.
Perhaps too simple and maybe even flawed, but it works for me.
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Theresa
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folklaur
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| Posted: Oct 06 2008 at 10:46pm | IP Logged
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JennGM wrote:
| Laura, I apologize if I sound know-it-all or short with your question. I am not meaning to be...I'm about to go to bed. Truly, I'm asking the question, because I don't know if we must believe it was a paradise or perfect. If you know where I can find that.... |
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No, no, you sounded fine. 
I would love to continue this conversation, but have a nagging feeling this is probably not the place to do...
I will try to answer as best I can, why I have understood Eden = Paradise.
In New Advent's Encyclopedia, when you go to the entry for Garden of Eden, it redirects you to "Terrestrial Paradise (paradeisos, Paradisus)."
Here is an article from Catholic Exchange. Part of the article says, "let's start with why Adam and Eve had to leave the Garden of Eden: Sin brings consequences. Not only does wrongdoing affect the people involved, the cause-and-effect of sin can cause effects for generations to come. So when sin entered the garden, the intimate relationship between God and humankind immediately changed, causing all sorts of disruptions and, likely, making a more discernible distinction between the holy and the unholy. In other words, this perfect place became a holy place where no "unholy" person could live comfortably or at ease. (Dis-ease most likely entered the world then too.) (Emphasis mine.)
My trouble is, it seems to me, that as soon as Satan entered, sin entered. This is obviously not a Vatican-decreed article, but you can see where others do have this idea of Eden = Paradise.
And, from the CCC (bolds are mine):
332 Angels have been present since creation and throughout the history of salvation, announcing this salvation from afar or near and serving the accomplishment of the divine plan: they closed the earthly paradise; protected Lot; saved Hagar and her child; stayed Abraham's hand; communicated the law by their ministry; led the People of God; announced births and callings; and assisted the prophets, just to cite a few examples. Finally, the angel Gabriel announced the birth of the Precursor and that of Jesus himself.
384 Revelation makes known to us the state of original holiness and justice of man and woman before sin: from their friendship with God flowed the happiness of their existence in paradise.
736 By this power of the Spirit, God's children can bear much fruit. He who has grafted us onto the true vine will make us bear "the fruit of the Spirit: . . . love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." "We live by the Spirit"; the more we renounce ourselves, the more we "walk by the Spirit." Through the Holy Spirit we are restored to paradise, led back to the Kingdom of heaven, and adopted as children, given confidence to call God "Father" and to share in Christ's grace, called children of light and given a share in eternal glory.
That is the best I can do right now to present why I have understood Eden = Paradise.
ETA: to take out some stuff where I rambled and got a bit off topic, I think.
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Michaela
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| Posted: Oct 06 2008 at 10:49pm | IP Logged
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organiclilac wrote:
| Hahn talks about this in A Father Who Keeps His Promises. I am going from memory here, but God told Adam to care for and guard Eden. We think of the sin as Eve's, since she ate the apple first, but Adam had already failed by letting Satan in. (And, the language in Genesis indicates that Adam was standing right there when Satan was tempting Eve, so he failed to protect his bride as well.) |
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It's amazing what a second look at a book can do.
I bought A Father Who Keeps His Promises over a year ago after it was recommended as a study of the Our Father prayer. That's not what I found, so I set it aside.
Now the book is exactly what I need to understand all of this information.
I found what you're referring to on page 58. ...Adam's basic duty "to till and keep" the garden.
Genesis 2:15 The tilling part was clear enough, since that's what Adam would naturally expect to do in a garden. But the other word, "keep" (shamar), carries a distinct meaning, "to guard," implying the need to ward off potential intruders.
There is so much information that I've never heard the way Hahn explains. If the "death" threatened by the tree of knowledge seemed a little ambiguous, so is the "life" promised by the other tree. After all, didn't God already give Adam the gift of immortality? What's the use of a tree with fruit to make you live forever if you're already going to anyway?
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Michaela
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Topic: Can we talk about the evil one?
