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marianne
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Oh my - I (a convert) am not educated on this topic, but I'm sure you ladies can help me out. Our priest this morning all but slammed the pope's idea for the traditional Latin Mass. He started out by saying that the pope is the pope and knows a lot, but WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO GO BACK TO THE LATIN MASS? He said it's probably just for nostalgia, which is "the memories without the pain". He practically told us that there really isn't much worth in this idea. I would love to go to him with some real ideas, but other than translation inaccuracies, what can I say? The whole talk just bothered me. 
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chicken lady
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Just pray for him, we can not under estimate the power of prayer. If he had read the motu propio he would have realized the Holy Father addressed that very issue. You will see many progressives start "hemmoraging" over this. This powerful and holy move of the Holy Father needs our prayers. Offer the rosary for this priest and the Popes intentions, he really needs them right now.
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Martha
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hmm, I would be more upset at his disrespectful attitude towards our pope. 
opening up the latin mass did not make it a requirement to offer it or attend it, unless I'm much mistaken in my reading?
that said, the priest does bring up a valid issue for discussion. people like to wax poetical about the latin mass, but it had problems too. there's a reason a N.O. mass was proposed, whatever it's own problems and I certainly admit they exist, the reasons a N.O. mass was proposed shouldn't be forgotten.
just my thoughts. 
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CatholicMommy
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Our priest this morning read straight from the document addressing this very issue - that it's not nostalgia or going backwards (returning to the past), but a move to enrich the Mass of Paul VI (he does not like calling it Novus Ordo) which nowehere is done according to the rubrics (his own words, said in a manner of honesty, nothing negative).
He also emphasized that it also won't be required - simply offered in places where the pastor wishes to.
I attend the Tridentine Mass whenever I can - and I'm sure most people here who attend it will agree with me: it's not about nostalgia as its mostly younger families who attend. Some older people, but mostly families.
I recently brought the topic up with my grandmother who said, "oh I miss that Mass - it was so wonderful - of course I knew Latin so I understood the words." When I told her it was still being offered and listed the places in our diocese where the indult is available, she immediately called one of my aunts to make transportation arrangements to attend. She told me later she cried the entire Mass. I'm not sure that's so much nostalgia as recognizing the loss of something truly beautiful, regardless of how beautiful the Novus Ordo Mass may or may not be (depending on locale).
I am just so relieved that the option of attendance is 'official' and universal, allowing more people to attend when they desire to do so... I know it'll take a while before it's available in very many more places than it is now, but at least the seed is not only planted, but growing.
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Matilda
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He also emphasized that it also won't be required - simply offered in places where the pastor wishes to.
It was my understanding (& I might be wrong) that the letter actually goes a little further than this. A pastor must seriously consider offering the Latin Mass if there is a group of people who petition for it. This could be why so many priests are going to be looking on it unfavorably!
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CatholicMommy
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Catholic World News Report
This is the original news posting I read. I've only read part of the unofficial English translation and a smaller part of the Latin. I do hope this all settles out - noone forced to say or not say the Mass, but everyone allowed the option.
:)
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Bridget
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This post from the New Liturgical Movement might guide you in encouraging your priest.
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Erin
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CatholicMommy wrote:
I recently brought the topic up with my grandmother who said, "oh I miss that Mass - it was so wonderful - of course I knew Latin so I understood the words." When I told her it was still being offered and listed the places in our diocese where the indult is available, she immediately called one of my aunts to make transportation arrangements to attend. She told me later she cried the entire Mass. I'm not sure that's so much nostalgia as recognizing the loss of something truly beautiful, regardless of how beautiful the Novus Ordo Mass may or may not be (depending on locale). |
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What a beautiful, beautiful story 
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MicheleQ
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Matilda wrote:
He also emphasized that it also won't be required - simply offered in places where the pastor wishes to.
It was my understanding (& I might be wrong) that the letter actually goes a little further than this. A pastor must seriously consider offering the Latin Mass if there is a group of people who petition for it. This could be why so many priests are going to be looking on it unfavorably! |
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I think it's even stronger than that. Here's the exact quote "In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church."
It also says that the Latin mass can be every day, not just Sundays - "Celebration in accordance with the Missal of Bl. John XXIII may take place on working days; while on Sundays and feast days one such celebration may also be held."
AND
"For faithful and priests who request it, the pastor should also allow celebrations in this extraordinary form for special circumstances such as marriages, funerals or occasional celebrations, e.g. pilgrimages."
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JennGM
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I'm not trying to be devil's advocate, but trying to sort out logistics.
What happens if you don't have a pastor or priest that CAN properly say the LM, due to lack of training and such?
While I understand what the Pope is allowing, I'm a bit confused what seems somewhat contradictory. The Missal of 1962 is the extraordinary, but it can be done all year round, except the Triduum. Isn't that contradictory of the normal/ordinary 1970 Missal? Doesn't the extraordinary then become the ordinary if it's done all the time?
I guess I'm in the minority, but I'm looking forward to the next Motu Proprio on the 1970 Missal. What I would really like to be able to demand is the 1970 Missal Mass be done in Latin, and done well, just like Monsignor Richard Shuler of St. Agnes in St. Paul, MN.
I do see that Pope Benedict is really trying to correct the abuses in the Liturgy, and bring to fulfillment the true implementation of Vatican II. So while I think it's great that we could ask for the 1962 Missal, I'm longing for the abuses to end in all areas.
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DominaCaeli
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JennGM wrote:
| What happens if you don't have a pastor or priest that CAN properly say the LM, due to lack of training and such? |
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"Art. 8 A bishop who, desirous of satisfying such requests, but who for various reasons is unable to do so, may refer the problem to the Commission 'Ecclesia Dei' to obtain counsel and assistance."
So, if a bishop cannot find a suitable priest to perform the 1962 Mass, he can appeal to Ecclesia Dei and they can presumably find a solution to that problem.
I do know, though, that both the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter and the Institute of Christ the King are offering courses for priests that want to learn how to celebrate the Tridentine Mass, so if there is no priest in the diocese that already knows the rubrics, the bishop could send one to be trained. Also, the bishop could invite one of these orders into the diocese and they could celebrate, rather than having a diocesan priest do it.
I am so, so pleased about the Motu Proprio!  I think those that will feel the most benefits from it are the priests, who are now allowed to pray the Mass (privately) and the breviary from 1962 without any further hierarchical approval. This is a wonderful development for them--and thus for the faithful as well.
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Jenn,
Thank you for saying what I was thinking! I am so happy for those who truly love the Latin Mass and who will have more access to it and for those who felt that they must leave the Church because of this issue that they can now come back, but... what about the true N.O. Mass. What about the abuses? What about the goofiness? I felt a little neglected when I first read about the Motu Proprio. What about those of us who want a Mass like you see the Pope say in St. Peters? I have only ever known one priest who said his Mass the same way as the Pope and it was beautiful, gorgeous, move-you-to-tears-reverent! Why can't that be an option too?
Maybe it will be. Maybe that one is next.
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Bridget
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He has been working on that for years. Wasn't it last month he released a document on the Eucharist, meant to correct abuses? I can't remember what it was called. I even read parts of it, but it's gone from my brain now.
Have faith in the Holy Father, he is working on it.
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Bridget
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DominaCaeli wrote:
So, if a bishop cannot find a suitable priest to perform the 1962 Mass, he can appeal to Ecclesia Dei and they can presumably find a solution to that problem.
I do know, though, that both the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter and the Institute of Christ the King are offering courses for priests that want to learn how to celebrate the Tridentine Mass, so if there is no priest in the diocese that already knows the rubrics, the bishop could send one to be trained. Also, the bishop could invite one of these orders into the diocese and they could celebrate, rather than having a diocesan priest do it.
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I'm guessing the availability of the TLM will increase slowly, but will increase. All the TLM trained priests I have read or heard over the past few days have expressed a generous desire to train any priest who wants to learn to pray the TLM.
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JennGM
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Matilda wrote:
Jenn,
Thank you for saying what I was thinking! I am so happy for those who truly love the Latin Mass and who will have more access to it and for those who felt that they must leave the Church because of this issue that they can now come back, but... what about the true N.O. Mass. What about the abuses? What about the goofiness? I felt a little neglected when I first read about the Motu Proprio. What about those of us who want a Mass like you see the Pope say in St. Peters? I have only ever known one priest who said his Mass the same way as the Pope and it was beautiful, gorgeous, move-you-to-tears-reverent! Why can't that be an option too?
Maybe it will be. Maybe that one is next. |
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Matilda, I talked with my mother this morning about this. She's on the same page with me, but really we started discussing why the Pope is taking this approach. I'm blessed to be a diocese without so many liturgical abuses, but there are many, many dioceses that have no recourse -- there is no place for refuge for a liturgically correct Mass, and I'm not talking perfectly done, like the Vatican.
So, this seems to be a refuge for those that have no recourse. The Pope seems to be going back to the beginning, because attacking directly at the abuses wasn't working, and the faithful were suffering.
I am looking forward to the next Motu Proprio, to see if there are more things that can bridge the gap. The problem is implementation. The Church can do things, but it's not always implemented and interpreted correctly, as one can see by the the fall-out already from this MP.
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Bridget wrote:
| Have faith in the Holy Father, he is working on it. |
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I do have faith! He has such knowledge and reverence for the Liturgy, I am still so excited that he is our Pope.
I guess what I'm trying to simply say is that I would love (like Matilda said) a Vatican/St. Peter's Mass, done in the 1970 Missal. So I'll keep waiting.
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CatholicMommy
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Matilda wrote:
... what about the true N.O. Mass. What about the abuses? What about the goofiness? I felt a little neglected when I first read about the Motu Proprio. What about those of us who want a Mass like you see the Pope say in St. Peters? I have only ever known one priest who said his Mass the same way as the Pope and it was beautiful, gorgeous, move-you-to-tears-reverent! Why can't that be an option too?
Maybe it will be. Maybe that one is next. |
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I could be entirely wrong on this, but the impression I am getting is that the Pope has the hope that having both Masses stand as equally valid, that the beautiful and reverent from the TLM will cross over into the NO, enhancing it to (ideally) its greatest potential.
I personally don't think the two can stand together as equally valid and NOT have some positive influence on both. I think at first the greatest influence will be seen in the NO Mass.
just my own personal thoughts...
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DominaCaeli
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JennGM wrote:
| While I understand what the Pope is allowing, I'm a bit confused what seems somewhat contradictory. The Missal of 1962 is the extraordinary, but it can be done all year round, except the Triduum. Isn't that contradictory of the normal/ordinary 1970 Missal? Doesn't the extraordinary then become the ordinary if it's done all the time? |
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I just wanted to address this, because I think the Pope has specifically tried to avoid this by the way he has set up the guidelines of Mass celebration in the MP. In regular parishes, the TLM can only be celebrated once on Sunday--I think this pretty clearly puts the 1970-missal Mass in the "ordinary" position. I was reading an (pre-MP) interview with the Superior General of FSSP, and he used the term "exception," which I think can be fittingly applied here: the TLM is still "extraordinary," but it is no longer an "exception." It is not going to be the way most Masses in the universal Church are celebrated, but it will have a stable place within the liturgical life of each (I hope!) diocese.
And I am with you, Jenn and Matilda, on the desire for faithfully-celebrated Novus Ordo Masses! I certainly think, as CatholicMommy said, that this MP will have a positive impact on the reverence of ALL Masses celebrated. It will be move in the right liturgical direction.
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JennGM
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DominaCaeli wrote:
JennGM wrote:
| While I understand what the Pope is allowing, I'm a bit confused what seems somewhat contradictory. The Missal of 1962 is the extraordinary, but it can be done all year round, except the Triduum. Isn't that contradictory of the normal/ordinary 1970 Missal? Doesn't the extraordinary then become the ordinary if it's done all the time? |
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I just wanted to address this, because I think the Pope has specifically tried to avoid this by the way he has set up the guidelines of Mass celebration in the MP. In regular parishes, the TLM can only be celebrated once on Sunday--I think this pretty clearly puts the 1970-missal Mass in the "ordinary" position. I was reading an (pre-MP) interview with the Superior General of FSSP, and he used the term "exception," which I think can be fittingly applied here: the TLM is still "extraordinary," but it is no longer an "exception." It is not going to be the way most Masses in the universal Church are celebrated, but it will have a stable place within the liturgical life of each (I hope!) diocese. |
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Yes, but the quotes Michele provided above:
Quote:
I think it's even stronger than that. Here's the exact quote "In parishes, where there is a stable group of faithful who adhere to the earlier liturgical tradition, the pastor should willingly accept their requests to celebrate the Mass according to the rite of the Roman Missal published in 1962, and ensure that the welfare of these faithful harmonises with the ordinary pastoral care of the parish, under the guidance of the bishop in accordance with canon 392, avoiding discord and favouring the unity of the whole Church."
It also says that the Latin mass can be every day, not just Sundays - "Celebration in accordance with the Missal of Bl. John XXIII may take place on working days; while on Sundays and feast days one such celebration may also be held."
AND
"For faithful and priests who request it, the pastor should also allow celebrations in this extraordinary form for special circumstances such as marriages, funerals or occasional celebrations, e.g. pilgrimages." |
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and this further example
"Art. 10. The ordinary of a particular place, if he feels it appropriate, may erect a personal parish in accordance with can. 518 for celebrations following the ancient form of the Roman rite, or appoint a chaplain, while observing all the norms of law.
Seems like it could become a whole parish of just TLM. That's what I mean be seemingly contradictory. I understand what you are saying, Celeste, but yet...
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DominaCaeli
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JennGM wrote:
| Seems like it could become a whole parish of just TLM. That's what I mean be seemingly contradictory. I understand what you are saying, Celeste, but yet... |
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Hi, Jenn,
Yes, there can definitely be whole parishes that celebrate only the TLM; as I'm sure you know, these already exist, and under the MP, bishops may find this to be the easiest and wisest method of responding to the desires for the TLM in their diocese. (I certainly think it is!)
But I really don't see this as a contradiction. Yes, the TLM will be more widespread than it has been, God willing. But consider what the liturgical situation would look like if all the bishops made the TLM as widespread as the MP allows: each parish might have a TLM each day of the week (including one on Sunday, and excluding the Triduum, of course) and their might be one TLM-only parish in each diocese. (This is highly, highly unlikely  but I'm trying to consider the widest application possible.) Even still, the Novus Ordo would still be hands-down the more common Mass.
Through the regulations in the letter itself, the Pope seems to be legally ensuring that TLM Masses will remain in the minority. They will be more available but will still be "extraordinary." I don't think "extraordinary" must mean "not celebrated regularly" or "limited to certain locations" or "on the fringes of diocesan life." It seems to me, based on this document and others, that "extraordinary" simply means "not as common." And that is what the TLM will still be under the MP.
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Latin Mass
