Oh, Dearest Mother, Sweetest Virgin of Altagracia, our Patroness. You are our Advocate and to you we recommend our needs. You are our Teacher and like disciples we come to learn from the example of your holy life. You are our Mother, and like children, we come to offer you all of the love of our hearts. Receive, dearest Mother, our offerings and listen attentively to our supplications. Amen.



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Jeanne Marie
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 11:19am | IP Logged Quote Jeanne Marie

JennGM wrote:
I love "Young Mary of Nazareth" but I admit I skip over parts that I don't personally adhere. When he gets older I'll explain that this is a story.



Which parts do you skip over?

Thanks
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Betsy
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 11:21am | IP Logged Quote Betsy

+JMJ+

Wow Jenn...I got my Catechism for today! Thanks!!!!
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JennGM
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 11:42am | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Jeanne Marie wrote:
JennGM wrote:
I love "Young Mary of Nazareth" but I admit I skip over parts that I don't personally adhere. When he gets older I'll explain that this is a story.


Which parts do you skip over?


I don't believe St. Joseph was a widower, so I skip that. And I don't want to confuse my son that Gabriel appeared twice, and Mary was startled, so I skip the well part.

I think that's about it. I haven't read it through completely with my son, as it's very wordy. So related to the feast day I pick parts of the book with illustrations to discuss the feast, such as July 26 is coming up, and I can use Joachim and Anne section to illustrate that day.

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Jeanne Marie
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 12:28pm | IP Logged Quote Jeanne Marie

From "Young Mary of Nazareth:"

Explaining the situation to Zaccharia, they asked that the wedding ceremony be performed at once. But the priest said, "So that there should not be a breath of scandal surrounding your union, will you agree to undergo a test of truth by drinking the sacred waters of conviction? Be warned: If all you say is true, the water will do you no harm - but if you lie, it will result in death." Holding tight to each other's hands, Mary and Joseph drank the sacred water.

Does anyone know where this comes from?
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JennGM
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 12:35pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Jeanne Marie wrote:
Be warned: If all you say is true, the water will do you no harm - but if you lie, it will result in death." Holding tight to each other's hands, Mary and Joseph drank the sacred water.

Does anyone know where this comes from?

Nope, not familiar with it. But then I haven't read all the mystics and others she listed in her Bibliography, Anne Catherine Emmerich, Mary of Agreda, etc.

Like Cay said, prayerfully decide if it's what you want to read to your children. This book isn't even on her list.

I sorted through her sources and I decided that they were fine, but as far as finding from where each section of her story was pieced, it would take a long time, at least for me.

The book is not factual, and except what the Church teaches (Mary the Mother of God, her Perpetual Virginity, the Incarnation, the Nativity, etc.) the other extras are not an element of our Faith. This book is merely piecing together some ancient stories and mystical writings to fill in the gaps of Our Lady's early life.

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Posted: July 12 2007 at 12:54pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

I just also wanted to add that while that story seems far-fetched to our minds, think of the reason WHY the story would be relayed, especially if the story is told from tradition. For hundreds of years stories were used to illustrate elements of the faith, since so many of the faithful were illiterate.

This short story shows the purity and integrity of both Mary and Joseph. This test with the threat of death illustrates their holiness. They wouldn't have been afraid, because they knew they were following God's will and being faithful.

The book has some fictional parts, but the parts are to illustrate virtues and the beauty of Mary.

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Posted: July 12 2007 at 1:01pm | IP Logged Quote kincaidknight

I have to say that I think a lot of my caution stems from being a recent convert. In so many ways, I feel like I was misled through most of my faith life leading up to my adult decision to convert. Because I am so new to the faith and still learning and voraciously reading about our faith, I approach things outside of the Bible and Church quite cautiously. I think that's why I felt the discussion about gnosticism seemed rather flippant.

I'm realizing that I must not be as secure in my knowledge of the faith yet to know which parts of Mayer's books to skip over.

I am like a child in many ways as I'm learning the faith with them. I'm at a point where I can't distinguish between what truths we believe and which "imaginative" parts have been inserted. I hope this explains some of my alarm about discovering that Mayer was using so-called apocryphal sources. I've been misled by paganism, liberalism, and feminism for too long before embracing the Church, and I was worried that I would be led astray once more.

Because I am so new to Catholicism, I feel guarded about what I'm learning because everything makes a lasting impression on me. I have not been blessed with a Catholic upbringing that would give me a solid foundation for dealing with "imaginative" interpretations of the lives of the Holy Family. I appreciate your understanding and charitable assistance as I work through these issues to understand these gnostic texts and their appropriate context.
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JennGM
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 1:26pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

kincaidknight wrote:
I am like a child in many ways as I'm learning the faith with them. I'm at a point where I can't distinguish between what truths we believe and which "imaginative" parts have been inserted. I hope this explains some of my alarm about discovering that Mayer was using so-called apocryphal sources. I've been misled by paganism, liberalism, and feminism for too long before embracing the Church, and I was worried that I would be led astray once more.

Because I am so new to Catholicism, I feel guarded about what I'm learning because everything makes a lasting impression on me. I have not been blessed with a Catholic upbringing that would give me a solid foundation for dealing with "imaginative" interpretations of the lives of the Holy Family. I appreciate your understanding and charitable assistance as I work through these issues to understand these gnostic texts and their appropriate context.


What a wonderful faith journey! You are being very prudent, and I applaud your thoughtfulness. I admit, even with a Catholic upbringing, that I still have to use caution when picking up sources. We can never be too sure.

I am relieved you didn't take personal offense from my post...truly your question gave me much to ponder and research. I had to clarify myself the different apocryphal texts, and so I appreciate the opportunity.

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Jeanne Marie
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 2:47pm | IP Logged Quote Jeanne Marie

Oh, I know that "Young Mary of Nazareth" isn't in Catholic Mosaic, but since you were discussing it, I was curious.

Okay, back to the "Gospel of Thomas!"


JennGM wrote:
I know with the Da Vinci Code the gnostic gospels have been brought to the forefront, and are seeing an upsurge of interest. But I found that the "Gospel of Thomas" is actually more than one text. There is a gnostic version, which was condemned, but these sources say there other versions (such as the Infancy Narratives). And while these stories may be insipid, they are harmless, containing nothing contradictory to the Faith. I think that is the main problem, that the use of apocrypha includes a variety of sources, but there are different categories of these texts. They all fit in the category of "apocryphal" but not all are gnostic.



This was confusing to me so I found this on Wikipedia:

The Gospel of Thomas is distinct and unrelated to other apocryphal or pseudepigraphal works, such as the Acts of Thomas or the work called the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which expands on the canonical texts to describe the miraculous childhood of Jesus.

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is a non-canonical text that was part of a popular genre, aretalogy, of the 2nd and 3rd centuries— a miracle literature of Infancy gospels that was both entertaining and inspirational, written to satisfy a hunger for more miraculous and anecdotal stories of the childhood of Jesus than the Gospel of Luke provided. Later references by Hippolytus and Origen to a Gospel of Thomas are more likely to be referring to this Infancy Gospel than to the wholly different Gospel of Thomas with which it is sometimes confused..


And according to Fr. William Saunders (CatholicCulture.org):

These gnostic groups composed their writings, and labeled them with titles, such as “The Gospel of Thomas” or “The Gospel of Philip” or “The Acts of Peter.” Of course none of these works can be traced to the apostolic times or apostolic authorship. The gnostics appended the names of the saints to these bogus writings to give them some credibility. Again these writings cannot be traced to the apostolic age when the writings of the New Testament appeared, they cannot be linked to the witness of an apostle or disciple, and they are heretical. Little wonder the Church condemned these writings.

So,

Gospel of Thomas is NOT apocryphal

Gospel of Thomas is condemned by the Church (and unrelated to the Infancy Gospel of Thomas).

Infancy Gospel of Thomas is not condemned by the Church.

Now do I have it right?
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JennGM
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 3:04pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Jeanne Marie wrote:
So,

Gospel of Thomas is NOT apocryphal

Gospel of Thomas is condemned by the Church (and unrelated to the Infancy Gospel of Thomas).

Infancy Gospel of Thomas is not condemned by the Church.

Now do I have it right?


Well, I'm reading it a bit differently, and of course I could be wrong. I'll restate that

It's long, but the Catholic Encyclopedia article and Father Most's summary said that they all are under the "apocryphal" genre, or title, as it were, but some are gnostic, some are not.

Father Most lists these from "Thomas":

63. Thomas, Acts of, an apocryphal acts, probably originally written in Syriac in the first half of the 3d cent. at Edessa. They recount how Thomas was assigned to India, refused, and was forced by Christ, who sold him to a merchant, to serve Indian King Gundephorus as a carpenter. After many marvelous incidents, Thomas is martyred. The extant Greek is probably closer to the original than the Syriac text, which seems to have been much revised to purify it of Gnostic tendencies: Thomas is represented as the twin of Christ like him both in appearance and in redeeming work. Thomas specializes in urging renunciation of marriage. All attempts to prove the historicity of Thomas's mission to India have failed.

64. Thomas, Apocalypse of, formerly known only through its condemnation in the so-called Gelasian decree (6th cent.), found in the early part of the 20th cent. in two versions, the longer in MSS dating from 8th and 9th cent., the shorter in MSS of 5th and 11 or 12th centuries. The first part of the longer version is probably an interpolation from the 5th century. The second corresponds to the shorter version and is probably earlier than the 5th century. In it Christ is pictured as describing to Thomas the events of the 7 days that precede the final consummation of the world.

65. Thomas, Gospel of, a title given to two apocryphal gospels: (1) the infancy Gospel according to Thomas, extant in Greek, Syriac, and other versions, which recounts the Childhood of Jesus between the ages 5 to 12. It is a welter of tasteless (and worse) wonder stories, e.g., a child running dashes against Jesus; Jesus strikes him dead; Jesus is found making clay birds on the Sabbath, is rebuked, brings them to life. The present form is probably later than 6th cent., but it may go back to the late 2d cent.; (2) the Gospel of Thomas found at Chenoboskion in 1946. It contains hardly any narrative, is a collection of 114 sayings of Jesus. It seems to be the Manichaean gospel mentioned by Cyril of Jerusalem (Catecheses 6.31). Hippolytus attributes such a gospel to the Gnostic Naasenes, probably this one (Heresies 5.2). Perhaps the Manichaeans reworked the Gnostic gospel. It may go back to the mid-2d cent., but it is not later than the beginning of the 3d century.


I couldn't find a clear-cut answer to affirm you emphatically. The Gospel of Thomas, containing Manichean and Gnostic characters contradictory to the faith was condemned. I do see the Infancy Narratives and Acts of Thomas as part of the "okay" apocrypha, and the gnostic version of the Gospel of Thomas as condemned

BUT it seems in reading about all this that there is a confusion as to the title of "Gospel of Thomas" and that title can be mistakenly applied to various texts. So one would have to sort out which source is being used, not just by the title. Clear as mud?

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Posted: July 12 2007 at 3:06pm | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Again these writings cannot be traced to the apostolic age when the writings of the New Testament appeared, they cannot be linked to the witness of an apostle or disciple, and they are heretical. Little wonder the Church condemned these writings.

Father Saunders has a great point in sorting out what is "apocryphal literature". The real ones date back to the apostolic age. The gnostic literature were phony, trying to claim their apostolic origins, but they weren't.

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Posted: July 12 2007 at 3:59pm | IP Logged Quote Jeanne Marie

kincaidknight wrote:

I should have clarified that Mayer herself calls these sources "apocryphal," but if you look at her sources and author's notes, you find that she's drawing from the Gospel of Thomas, the Infancy of Thomas, etc.
Kristin


Since Mayer lists both the "Gospel of Thomas" and the "Infancy of Thomas" as sources, it seems she is not confusing one with the other. Since she used the "Gospel of Thomas" as a source in "The Twelve Apostles," is there anything at all in that book that anyone on this board finds objectionable?
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Posted: July 12 2007 at 7:30pm | IP Logged Quote Angie Mc

kincaidknight wrote:
   I hope this explains some of my alarm about discovering that Mayer was using so-called apocryphal sources. I've been misled by paganism, liberalism, and feminism for too long before embracing the Church, and I was worried that I would be led astray once more.


I completely understand and admire your caution, Kristin. I could have written your post myself shortly after my reversion. (Yes, like many of my peers, I was technically raised in the Church but did not receive a solid foundation.) You have a sensitive "radar" for things "off" that serves, and will continue to serve, you well. The key for me has been to combine this radar with excellent information, loving support, and encouragement, just like you are doing. This helps me to be, at once, cautious but not fearful...tough work.

Thanks for the conversation and excellent information, all!

Love,    

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Posted: July 13 2007 at 10:34pm | IP Logged Quote Jeanne Marie

Well, I bought "Catholic Mosaic" and have begun buying books - (not all of them )
I'm glad I stopped by here - I did not know about the Infancy Gospel of Thomas!
Thanks.
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Posted: July 13 2007 at 10:43pm | IP Logged Quote SuzanneG

Jeanne Marie wrote:
I'm glad I stopped by here - I did not know about the Infancy Gospel of Thomas!
Thanks.

Isn't it amazing what you learn hanging out around here? It's WAY BETTER college!

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Posted: July 14 2007 at 8:19am | IP Logged Quote margot helene

I finally had time to find my book of The Twelve Apostles and reread the Thomas section. After looking over the footnotes, I found that she does not USE information from the apocryphal texts, gnostic or faithful, in her writing. She merely states that they exist.

There are 5 footnotes for the section. The first four are all from the Gospel of John and when you check where they are placed in the text, it shows that she took information from John's Gospel for her writing of the story of Thomas. The fifth footnote says:

(37) The Apocryphal works of Thomas: Acts of Thomas, Apocalypse of Thomas, Infancy Gospel of Thomas, Book of Thomas, and the Gospel of Thomas.

But if you look in the text at what she is footnoting it is a line that merely says this:

There are several Apocryphal works that have circulated under Thomas' name. 37

So she is not USING those texts to write about Thomas, merely noting that these texts exist. Hard to tell if she is condoning them from a simple factual statement.
I looked over all the other footnotes and there are only three sources that are not scriptural:
Eusebius
The Apostolic History of Adbias
The Golden Legend

For information on the apocryphal text of Adbias (he is commemorated in the liturgical calendar, Bishop of Babylon) seethis entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia.

So to answer the question, do I find anything objectionable in the book, The Twelve Apostles, no I do not. I still think it is beautiful book!

Hope this helps!!
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Posted: July 16 2007 at 8:00am | IP Logged Quote JennGM

Thank you, Margot. I hadn't noticed before that in "The Twelve Apostles" she footnoted all her information on the Apostles, and most of it goes back to the Gospel. I like the book even more.

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Posted: July 16 2007 at 2:24pm | IP Logged Quote Mackfam

Wow! This has been such an educational thread for me, and so charitably discussed! I really appreciate all the information discussed here! Thank you so much ladies!

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