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doris
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Today we went to a Tridentine Mass. I wasn't expecting it; it was a Catholic home ed event and it wasn't spelt out in advance that it would be Tridentine rite.
I found it really difficult. I didn't have a missal so couldn't follow what was going on. There just seemed to be lots of very quiet praying going on at the front but only the servers joined in with the responses (of course). The congregation didn't even say 'Amen'. Our presence seemed entirely superfluous. And of course no-one understood a word of the reading because that was in Latin too.
I'm not anti Latin -- I sang in a Latin choir for years, even with babes in arms -- but this just seems a bridge too far. I'm ashamed to write that since, after all, this *was* Mass until 40 years ago. But I'm a convert and it all seems just so alien. In particular, the children just didn't engage with it *at all* -- they could have been anywhere. It went right over their heads. I know that this is partly a matter of familiarity, and age, but on the other hand they are reasonably attentive during our usual Sunday Mass (which is high, but in English apart from the Credo, Sanctus, and Agnus, which suits me fine).
On the other hand, the group of people who organised the Mass (and rosary and procession and crowning of Our Lady, which was lovely) are very devout, very lovely and all have lots and lots of children -- so they are a wonderful example to me. But I just felt like a fish out of water.
I know this might seem silly -- because after all, no-one is forcing me to go to a Tridentine Mass. But I feel very confused by it -- I feel like I 'ought' to like it because it's the most traditional form and also because the Holy Father seems to be moving the Church back to using it. So I wonder if anyone can help me get through this feeling of confusion and alienation -- and also share how they get their dc to engage in it.
Thanks in advance.
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alicegunther
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Dear Elizabeth,
I do think it is a matter of familiarity and age. The Tridentine Rite is overwhelmingly beautiful, particularly if you have had a chance to study it and prepare in advance. It reminds me a bit of the Easter Vigil in that way. The Easter Vigil can be long and difficult for children, or it can be an incredible experience if they know to anticipate the Service of Light, the Exultet, the extra readings, the Baptism and Confirmation.
The other thing I love about the Tridentine Rite is the physical beauty (in both vestments and altar setting) and the incomparable music. We are very involved in our parish and attend the Novus Ordo Mass on Sundays, but my children sing with the choir at the Diocesan Tridentine Mass on occasion. I think being part of the choir and rehearsing in advance really help. Plus, I was able to explain to them what a rich part of our Catholic heritage and history this Mass is.
I wonder if it might help for you to talk to those lovely families and ask if they have a choir or other assistance for families trying to learn more about the Tridentine Rite. Often local groups have many opportunities for children to learn and become more involved.
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helene
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I agree with Alice. It is also important to remember that the point of the Mass is the Sacrament and the Sacrifice, not necessarily the level of participation you have in it or the emotions (or perhaps lack of emotions) you have during it. Every priest, every parish, every congregation brings something different to offer at every Mass and the experience can be totally different every time (hopefully not TOO different!), but what really matters is that the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Our Lord are being offered to the Father for us once again and being united to our souls for those few blessed moments after Holy Communion. I generally prefer a reverent Novus Ordo, but I have attended countless Tridentine Masses and there is a rich heritage and a beautiful tradition there which I deeply respect.
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margot helene
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Elizabeth,
For the last 7 years or so we have attended the traditional Mass almost exclusively. When we attend a Novus Ordo Mass, my children are really distracted and complain after Mass that they had a hard time praying, singing, etc. It's it funny . . . it's all relative.
I'm sure that if you got a missal and talked about the Mass with the children, showing them that the parts of the Mass that they are familiar with are still there, they would learn to follow along, pray the Mass. Another great book for both you and the children is Maria Montessori's The Mass Explained to Children. It's a great resource and since it was written in the time of the traditional Mass, it explains that Mass. We used it as a read aloud (I learned a lot!) here and then found pictures in old missals.
We continue to attend because we absolutely love it! If it's available in your area, you should try to attend a High Mass (sounds like you went to a low Mass). In the High Mass it is easier to see the parts of the Mass, and the singing is beautiful.
Margot
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isjalu0826
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I don't want to sound ignorant, but can anyone explain why the Holy Father wants to move back to the Tridentine Mass? The reason I ask is because what I recall from Church History, the Mass today is more like it was in the early Christians' time, and the Latin Mass was what came about during the Middle Ages... when more pomp and circumstance became a part of the church... which doesn't make it better or worse, in my mind... But it just seems like our Liturgy today is more like it was for the Apostles and the Early Church and why wouldn't that be a good and beautiful thing too?
In fact, in this month's Magnificat, the "Meditation of the Day" for May 7 (which was written by Father Cantalamessa, who is noted as the 'preacher to the papal household'), he writes: "...the essential conditions for that miracle (to meet the Risen Christ alive with His Spirit in the Church) are always present in the Church. And they are better today than they were in the past, now that the liturgical reform has brought the paschal rites back to the splendor and simplicity of their primitive forms and to the language of the people.(For the Fathers didn't use Greek or Latin because it was the universal language of the day but because it was their language, the people's language). All we need to do is put the ever-new wine of faith and the Holy Spirit into these 'new wineskins', the renovated Easter ceremonies. The priest who presides over the liturgy can be of great help to the congregation in this. Looking at him, the faithful should be able to see his face become radiant while, like Moses, he converses with God."
That part about Greek and Latin made it seem to me like Father is saying they used Latin before because that was the people's language... and that using the people's language today (vernacular of the place in which the Mass is celebrated) is what to do...
????
Now I will say, I do love Latin. And I love the Latin Mass. But I love the Liturgy today as well. I love it.
It is my anchor... I can't imagine going back to a Mass where the priest has his back to the community, and where the community is superfluous. I don't understand that. I love our Liturgy so very much... I feel a part of it.
Am I misunderstanding this meditation above?
Does anyone know what how to explain the Holy Father's take on this is or what I can read to understand more?
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isjalu0826
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And please know, I don't mean to offend anyone.
I can understand how one would love the reverence and all. I am really just asking why the Holy Father would want to move toward it, or what that actually means ("moving the Church back to using it")... I'm trying to clear up my confusion...
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MarieC
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isjalu0826 wrote:
| I don't want to sound ignorant, but can anyone explain why the Holy Father wants to move back to the Tridentine Mass? |
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It's my understanding (and I'm in no way an expert!) that the Holy Father is moving toward allowing TLM to be said...not requiring it to be said.
I think he is also encouraging that some parts of the NO Mass be said in Latin.
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alicegunther
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MarieC wrote:
t's my understanding (and I'm in no way an expert!) that the Holy Father is moving toward allowing TLM to be said...not requiring it to be said.
I think he is also encouraging that some parts of the NO Mass be said in Latin. |
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Yes, Marie, that is my understanding as well.
isjalu0826 wrote:
Now I will say, I do love Latin. And I love the Latin Mass. But I love the Liturgy today as well. I love it.
It is my anchor... I can't imagine going back to a Mass where the priest has his back to the community, and where the community is superfluous. I don't understand that. I love our Liturgy so very much... I feel a part of it. |
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Yes, I love the Novus Ordo Mass too. That being said though, I am always deeply moved by the participation of the community in the Tridentine Rite. The priest has his back to the people, not to shut them out, but because he is their representative offering Our Lord to the Father on the altar. The people pray and offer their hearts to God. We do this in the Novus Ordo Mass as well, but, on the occasions we attend the Tridentine, I love the reminder (when I see the priest's back) that this is an offering on our behalf to the Father. It leaves me in awe of the priesthood and the Holy Sacrifice.
isjalu0826 wrote:
And please know, I don't mean to offend anyone.
I can understand how one would love the reverence and all. I am really just asking why the Holy Father would want to move toward it, or what that actually means ("moving the Church back to using it")... I'm trying to clear up my confusion... |
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You do not sound offensive to me--fair questions are a good thing!
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JennGM
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First of all, Elizabeth, I am a cradle Catholic, attend Novus Ordo both in English and Latin. I love the Latin, sang in Schola, and can follow along the missal easily. But my first Tridentine Mass I attended in my late 20s and I didn't like it much of it. I missed the dialogue Mass, whether it be in Latin or English. I didn't mind seeing the back of the priest, but I wanted to hear the words of the consecration, not have them whispered.
The indult permission requires the reformed Tridentine Mass of 1962 Missal to be used, which added some "dialogue" responses (that is, congregation answering). I think the 1962 also has the readings of Mass in English only. The Mass I attended was using the 1940 Missal, which had no dialogue, only the altar boy and priest answers.
If you read the many authors during liturgy reform from the turn of the 20th century through the 1960s, there was a move to reform the Mass. There were things that did need to be changed, the calendar and the lectionary, to name a few. Implementing the native tongue was also discussed. There were changes being implemented, such as in 1955 the Easter Vigil was restored to its original glory and held on Saturday night, instead of Saturday morning.
From my understanding in reading some of Benedict's talks and writings, he sees the disconnectedness of the supposed Vatican II reform of the Mass. Truly the Novus Ordo shouldn't be so shockingly different than the Tridentine. When the first missal was issued, it was very close to the Tridentine Mass. But some things changed that shouldn't have. The spirit of the times was in upheaval. All those changes were not what Vatican II said, rather they was all done in "the spirit of Vatican II".
So, while Benedict is merely giving permission for open celebration of the Tridentine Mass, I do think he's really cracking down on liturgical abuses. Administration was not JPII's strong point, but it is for Ratzinger. And I see that he is trying to bridge the gap and bring the original intent of Vatican II to fruition.
It has been said that it takes 25 years or more for the true reforms from a Council to be implemented. This is 40 plus years, but there are positive changes and corrections happening.
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LLMom
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isjalu0826 wrote:
I don't want to sound ignorant, but can anyone explain why the Holy Father wants to move back to the Tridentine Mass? The reason I ask is because what I recall from Church History, the Mass today is more like it was in the early Christians' time, and the Latin Mass was what came about during the Middle Ages... when more pomp and circumstance became a part of the church... which doesn't make it better or worse, in my mind... But it just seems like our Liturgy today is more like it was for the Apostles and the Early Church and why wouldn't that be a good and beautiful thing too?
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Actually, because the church was just being established after Christ's resurrection, the Mass was evolving. Around the year 500, they had the Mass that we had before Vatican II. IN the middle ages, Pope Pius V codified the Mass and it became known as the Tridentine Mass because of the council of Trent. He codified it (which means that all priests could say this Mass in perpetuity and that it shouldn't be changed) because he didn't want people to do what Luther and the Anglican's had done. This Mass has been around for 1500+ years and it is the Mass of countless saints. It does take some getting use to it. IT is all about giving God praise and offering the sacrifice to him and not about us. ONce I realized I wasn't there to "actively participate", I could more easily concentrate on the prayers. They are so beautiful and some people may not realiz they are not just the New Mass prayers in English. The prayers were changed; the Tridentine prayers are very deep, rich prayers with beautiful words.
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isjalu0826
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Thanks to all who replied to my questions. In particular, Lisa (LLMom) what you wrote about the deep rich prayers makes me want to actually go and research a little more.
Does anyone know a place on the Web that has the Tridentine Mass prayers and such outlined?
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alicegunther
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isjalu0826 wrote:
Thanks to all who replied to my questions. In particular, Lisa (LLMom) what you wrote about the deep rich prayers makes me want to actually go and research a little more.
Does anyone know a place on the Web that has the Tridentine Mass prayers and such outlined? |
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Yes, I found this at EWTN: Ordinary of the Tridentine Mass (1962 edition)
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doris
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I'm finding everyone's comments and insights so interesting. Thank you all.
Another question (part of my uneasiness with the whole thing) -- isn't the Tridentine Mass a very 'intellectual' thing? Following along in the book (trying to guess what the priest is saying), translating the Latin... I'm just trying to imagine how it would be to take a friend along who was just curious about what Catholicism was all about -- wouldn't it just be completely bewildering?
Again, I know I don't *have* to do this -- but I'm interested to hear about how the Tridentine Mass might fit in with evangelisation.
I'm also aware that when the great saints of the past preached and converted people, they got them along to (Tridentine) Mass!
Oh, and another thing -- I took the dc up for a blessing. They knelt at the altar rail while their arms crossed as usual. The priest went to give dd Holy Communion and I gestured for him not to, and whispered 'Just a blessing' -- and he just moved on without blessing them. Is that normal?!
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Cay Gibson
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doris wrote:
| Oh, and another thing -- I took the dc up for a blessing. They knelt at the altar rail while their arms crossed as usual. The priest went to give dd Holy Communion and I gestured for him not to, and whispered 'Just a blessing' -- and he just moved on without blessing them. Is that normal?! |
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Elizabeth,
I'm not that knowledgeable on the differences here but I have been told that priests aren't suppose to be giving out blessings during communion time. I don't know if this is just a code of conduct or what.
We have one dear elderly priest at a nearby parish who stops and talks to every young child who comes up for communion with their parents. When I told a friend about it, she was aghast: "During Communion!!!"  She was shocked.
This dear priest is endearing these children to the Church by his welcoming them and acknowledging them but I'm not sure what the Church would say about it.
It's suppose to be a time of extreme reverence.
Then again, what would Christ say. 
Things use to be so black and white. Now everything as an aura of gray around it.
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Lisbet
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As a convert, the first mass I ever went to was a TLM, I was quite bewildered! My husband, who is a cradle Catholic, was also bewildered. (we were very young and ignorant of so many things though..)
Now here we are, 12 years later, and we have learned, much like LLmom, to love it. We seek it out where/when it is availalbe. My sons serve, and prefer to serve, TLM.
About it being intellectual, well, I can assure you I am anything but "intellectual"!! But it is easy to learn.
Lisa (LLmom) I could just ditto everything you wrote!
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CatholicMommy
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As far as blessings:
At the only Tridentine Masses my 3 yo son and I have attended so far (just too far away from our present residence), the priests have greeted people, especially the children, coming into the church if he's not doing confessions right before Mass, and always afterward he would approach all the children and give them blessings, speaking with them, etc. I've only been to two different parishes, so I don't know if this is usual, but it's definitely something that we like - at the Novus Ordo Mass we've been attending, the priest is very stand-offish regarding children and my son will not approach him by himself (we have better experiences at other Novus Ordo parishes, so I know this is definitely not usual). At the last Tridentine Mass, though, he walked right up to the priest to shake his hand.
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folklaur
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I have never been to the Tridentine Mass. I looked up the link that was provided. So now I am wondering, when it is mentioned that you don't actively participate, I guess I am wondering from the EWTN outline - does the congregation participate at all? It has the parts broken down like this:
Parts are denoted as follows:
P: =Priest
D: =Deacon
L: =Subdeacon/Lector
S: =Server
C: =Choir
and I don't see anything for congregation.
Thanks for any help....
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ALmom
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Yes, you participate. Unfortunately, we have grown to associate participation with loud singing, saying the words, etc. Real participation is of the heart, and in some ways it is easier to truely participate without the distractions of the typical way a NO is celebrated. Participation is prayerful, reverent and contemplative.
I thinkt the biggest factor that hindered your participation at the Mass was the surprise factor. I would think that in the future people should be informed - especially so you know that it is an approved Tridentine Mass, at least until the general indult is official but even with an official general indult, it seems charitable to notify everyone that this homeschool Mass will be Tridentine. That would have allowed you time to research and prepare yourself and your children for what to expect.
I find all the experimentation and surprises so distracting (not saying the Tridentine is that because one of the beauties of it is that there are no surprises once you are familiar with it whereas the NO Mass typically is full of experimental music, various unexpected invitations to clap,the blessing of children when you are trying to contemplate God whom you are about to receive body, blood, soul and divinity) and, in your case, you were unprepared for what to expect.
The question about blessing during Communion - I find it personally jarring as the priest is turning from the liturgy at hand to bless the child, when Christ himself is right there. I would rather my children be taught to make a spiritual communion if they must go up with me. We generally leave the 5 - 6 yo in the pew to avoid this - but must take babies and toddlers with us. I love my children receiving blessings from the priest - but before or after Mass, not during the liturgy.
Janet
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JennGM
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Many parishes have the blessing of the children or those who cannot receive Communion. I know it's controversial, some don't like it, but I love it. I view the blessing coming from Christ, as many of the priests have the host and bless the child. They are physically nearer to Christ. To me it's a type of spiritual communion, where the child receives the blessing of Christ in their heart.
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folklaur
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ALmom wrote:
| Yes, you participate. Unfortunately, we have grown to associate participation with loud singing, saying the words, etc. |
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Not to be annoying ( I am really, really not trying to be, I just don't understand  )
are you saying that we don't participate by "saying words" then? Does the congregation say anything? Do they sing anything? (and I guess I don't mean in my heart or mind or whatnot...I mean out loud ....)
...and as an aside to the other conversation within the thread, most of my parish does have their kids go up for a blessing during Communion. We don't though. If they are small enough to carry we do that, once older they wait in the pew....well, "seat" actually....we don't quite have "pews"....
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4Real Forums : Domestic Church
Topic: Tridentine Mass...
