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Elizabeth
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| Posted: July 23 2007 at 8:37am | IP Logged
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I see the point of the blog quoted but I do see it a little differently. A cheap velvet painting purchased on the side of the road will decay just the same as a beautifully framed NC Wyeth but which would you prefer to hang in your home while you are alive? Which will speak to you? Which will inspire you? Children are inspired by their environment. They are inspired by the toys and the supplies we choose for them.
There are some people who genuinely believe that the artisan-crafted wooden toys have a different effect on the child and her play than the cheap plastic beads. Has anyone else noticed a distinct difference between genuine LEGO and the less expensive knock-off? My kids do.
And, frankly,speaker of china, my heavy artisan stoneware dishes have long outlasted my neighbor's cheaper dishes. One of us has paid for dishes three times since marrying twenty years ago. One of us has two broken dishes to report--two dishes in twenty years with 8 children (5 of them boys and all of whom do the dishes). And those dishes have been beautiful on our table and bring beauty to our family times. My children will have those as heirlooms, much the way my grandchildren will play with our wooden toys.
Mary's question was whether there is a difference in crayons and there IS a difference. And the better quality crayons behave differently than the others. You can do different things with them.
OF COURSE we use regular pencils and crayons sometimes. OF COURSE we can share in that experience too. And it can be a good experience. We love to use the regular pan watercolors on sketch paper with creek water on site at Walney Pond. But we also really like what a good tube of water color can do with a good brush and 90# paper. I was just relating that the experience was different with the beeswax crayons. They are different. The process is different when using them and the product was different. And, truthfully, they were preferred over ordinary wax crayons.
The way I understood the original question, the amount of money was the same: many cheaper materials or fewer high quality materials. I'm not a minimalist. Anyone who's seen my bookshelves can attest to that.  But I would rather invest in fewer materials of better quality than many materials of cheaper quality.
Now, off to test Stockmar versus Stone.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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mrsgranola
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| Posted: July 23 2007 at 10:10am | IP Logged
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Hey, just this week my kids proved that quality is not necessarily the most important. Lucas (just turned 5), Mary (8), and Emma (2) have spent the majority of their time playing with and coloring various sizes of cardboard boxes. Lucas got a fire-fighter set for his birthday and the boxes have been burning buildings, firetrucks, cars, houses, etc...
On topic, I try to get most materials middle of the road unless it's something that REALLY makes a difference. Books that will get lots and lots of use I try to get in hardback when possible, i.e.
JoAnna
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MarilynW
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| Posted: July 23 2007 at 12:22pm | IP Logged
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What a great thread to start Mary! And timely. I have missed all the back to school deals (fortunately?) with the new baby. And this question has been on my mind for a while. I would like to ask a couple more questions re the supplies:
1) Color pencils - are Prismacolor the best for older kids with the triangular Ferby/Faber Castell for younger ones?
2) How do you organize your colored pencils and crayons - my kids have always each had their own pencil boxes with their own supplies. I am thinking of just setting up a single box for each item on the art shelf that everyone helps themselves from.
Our plans for next year are heavily weighted towards art and music - and I am so inspired from these Waldorf posts to include art across the curriculum - I did not do so well at this last year.
Maybe I should start a similar post on this "quality v quality" regarding school/curriculum? I am starting to think of putting my plans together - and I just want to keep it simple - a few things done well - and avoid trying to do too much.
I am interested to hear Elizabeth's verdict on Stone v Stockmar.
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Shari in NY
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| Posted: July 24 2007 at 8:18am | IP Logged
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I am interested to hear Elizabeth's verdict on Stone v Stockmar.[/QUOTE]
Me, too. We just received a shipment of new Stockmar crayons and they were greeted with excitement and at least an hour of experimentation. Okay, the seven year old spent much of that time building little barns and towers with the block crayons but still.....
I find that the Stockmar crayons encourage creativity with blank paper and Crayolas are better for coloring books.
Shari
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Mary G
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| Posted: July 24 2007 at 8:56am | IP Logged
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Shari in NY wrote:
I find that the Stockmar crayons encourage creativity with blank paper and Crayolas are better for coloring books.
Shari |
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Shari -- this is a really interesting observation! Of couse, I can't just give them any kind of drawing paper if I go the "quality" route -- any suggestions for paper?
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Betsy
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| Posted: July 24 2007 at 12:14pm | IP Logged
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Mary G wrote:
| -- any suggestions for paper? |
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I get this paper from Dick Blick. The last sale catalog had it on sale to boot. 
Betsy
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LisaR
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I draw the line at Roseart Brand- for some reason the kids are always disappointed- the crayons snap, or color spotty, the pencils don't sharpen properly, etc. Crayola has suited us fine- for crayons, watercolors, pencils and such. I DO like the prismacolor pencils- we are on our second set- they are a bit more closely guarded.
When my sisters were in Steubenville Austria they bought us LYRA pencils in the adorable tins. They lasted FOREVER and were very pleasing. I recall that they were actually expensive in Europe, too, which is making me again rethink that perhaps there is not an "american" markup on quality European supplies?
On the subject of the Wyeth on the wall or the roadside black velvet- I am ready to ditch it all! Call me a poor homemaker, but I am ready to go "shaker" around here, with just the bare essentials. We live in about 1800 sf and as the official school year time rolls around, I start to feel the walls coming in on me.
but that is another post 
"all the closer to your children to build relationships, my dear" my dh would say 
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CatholicMommy
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Oh Lisa - you reminded me about my 'secret stash' in the bottom desk drawer behind all the boring stationary the kids don't bother looking at.
Once a month, my son and I sit down to do a coloring sheet (the ones from CHC preschool actually) - this is the only coloring sheet he will do at this time (stencils yes, painting and blank paper yes, coloring sheets not yet). BUT we pull out the what I call "Mommy's special crayons and pencils" - it is two sets I bought the last two times I was in Europe (I have been very very blessed with each trip - another story): I get one pack of crayons and one pack of colored pencils and they are only used at special times. In fact, my teenage sisters are not allowed to touch them at all and will be irate when they find out I'm letting my 3 year old use them!
They color so nicely and I know they are just fairly inexpensive materials, bought at the grocery store of all places. But there is something different about them (I know the one set of crayons actually has plastic in them - they do NOT break). I do not have nicer crayons than Crayola in our general supply, so I can't really compare them.
All I can say is: I like them. And I make them last.
Time to find something to color. Perhaps for the prayer table.
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Becky Parker
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Okay, so what am I doing wrong with our Prismacolor pencils? They do color beautifully but every time we sharpen one, it seems they are ruined. From that point on, the "lead" (which isn't really lead, but I can't think of what the colored core is called) becomes loose and breaks off or falls out of the pencil, requiring it to be sharpened again and again. Is this just normal with colored pencils, or are we doing something wrong?
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Kristie 4
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We have had wonderful luck with our Derwent colored pencils. Paid about 50 for the 24 pack, but they come in a tin and after nearly two years we have every one (with four children)- the colors are beautiful and they sharpen well. We also have their graphite pencils.
About 5 years ago I found a pack of Ticonderoga colored pencils with a corelock system so if the pencils drop the leads don't break- they have excellent color, sharpen great, and are all over great pencils.
We prefer both of the above to the primacolor ones- both are much richer in color.
My 2cents.
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stefoodie
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Just in case anyone wants some, Derwents are on sale right now at Dick Blick's. I used them in art class years ago, Kristie -- they are good pencils!!
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vmalott
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| Posted: July 24 2007 at 6:26pm | IP Logged
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Becky Parker wrote:
| every time we sharpen one, it seems they are ruined. From that point on, the "lead" becomes loose and breaks off or falls out of the pencil, requiring it to be sharpened again and again. Is this just normal with colored pencils, or are we doing something wrong? |
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Actually, I think it might have something to do with the sharpener. I've heard (I don't remember where) that the better the sharpener is (that is, the more sharp the blade is), the better job it does of maintaining the integrity of the 'lead'.
Valerie
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Becky Parker
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| Posted: July 24 2007 at 8:13pm | IP Logged
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That's probably the problem Valerie. We have a pencil sharpener that it mounted to the wall. It looks just like the ones I remember from grade school... you know, the ones that always ate the pencils? Maybe instead of different pencils I should buy a better sharpener!
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Erin
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| Posted: July 24 2007 at 9:15pm | IP Logged
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Becky Parker wrote:
| Maybe instead of different pencils I should buy a better sharpener! |
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Becky
I think it may be more than a 'better' sharpener, I think it may be a particular one. When I was ringing around about Waldorf supplies the shopkeepers were giving me prices of sharpeners as well. I assumed it meant that a 'special' sharpener was required.
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Shari in NY
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| Posted: July 25 2007 at 12:52pm | IP Logged
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Mary G wrote:
Shari -- this is a really interesting observation! Of couse, I can't just give them any kind of drawing paper if I go the "quality" route -- any suggestions for paper? |
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Mary,
Your right. Usually, we use cheap copy paper for drawing but the Stockmar crayons are "stickier" and the paper shifts around. The cheaper drawing paper works okay though.If I spend too much on paper I get grinchy handing it out thereby defeating the artistic purpose  I use the 70lb. drawing paper from Walmart, less than $4.00 for 40 9x12 sheets.
Shari
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: July 29 2007 at 4:24pm | IP Logged
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Becky Parker wrote:
| Okay, so what am I doing wrong with our Prismacolor pencils? They do color beautifully but every time we sharpen one, it seems they are ruined. From that point on, the "lead" (which isn't really lead, but I can't think of what the colored core is called) becomes loose and breaks off or falls out of the pencil, requiring it to be sharpened again and again. Is this just normal with colored pencils, or are we doing something wrong? |
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Becky:
I found this sharpener at Blick's. Does anyone use this?
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Suzanne in ID
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divinagrace
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| Posted: July 30 2007 at 7:49pm | IP Logged
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Hello,
I am planning out some purchases at Scissors Paper Stone and am wondering if Elizabeth ever indicated whether she liked the Stockmar or the Stone Beeswax crayons?
Thank you. This thread has been so helpful for me.
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Elizabeth
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| Posted: July 30 2007 at 7:55pm | IP Logged
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I like the Stone crayons better and so do my children. They are a bit softer so the color goes on more brilliantly. That said, I think they'll wear a tad bit more quickly. They really are great crayons.
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Elizabeth Foss is no longer a member of this forum. Discussions now reflect the current management & are not necessarily expressions of her book, *Real Learning*, her current work, or her philosophy. (posted by E. Foss, Jan 2011)
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SuzanneG
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| Posted: July 30 2007 at 8:04pm | IP Logged
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I loved this discussion. It's been really helpful to me. Also loved the Waldorf thread and all the links there, too. Thanks everyone.
Here is some feedback I got from the Paper Scissors, Stone people today about crayons and pencils:
Pencils from Paper, Scissors, Stone. I can't link directly to each product.
Lyra Super Ferby Pencils Large, Triangular shaped, natural wood. About ½ diameter. 7 long. $1.75 / pencil.
Little Lyra Ferby Pencils same as above, but shorter-5 long. Some pre-school/Kinder may prefer shorter pencils. Interestingly, this is what is in the Montessori Services catalogue. Approx. $1.15/pencil.
Lyra Super 3 Colored Pencils Triangular shaped. Size is inbetween the Super Ferby and a regular pencil. Has a colored barrel (as opposed to a natural wood one like the Super Ferby), which may be attractive to some children. $1.25/pencil.
Lyra Color Giants - $1.95/pencil. Large like the Super Ferby, but Hexagonal shape. Colored barrel.
Crayons from Paper, Scissors, Stone
Stone Natural Wax Crayons
No petroleum waxes, a more natural product
More like an oil pastel, smooth application
Softer
Extremely unbreakable
$1.10/crayon
Lyra
Bigger than Stockmar
Triangular Shape
Brighter, more dramatic color than the Stockmar
$1.65/crayon
Magic Cabin has Lyra Crayons
Stockmar
Smaller diameter than the Lyra
Round shape
More earthy tones than Lyra
Stockmars are the most popular crayon at Paper Scissors, Stone.
$1.30/crayon
Dandelion Summer has Stockmar also.
Who knew buying crayons and pencils could be so complicated! 
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Suzanne in ID
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Meredith
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| Posted: July 31 2007 at 9:49am | IP Logged
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So Suzanne, tell me, are you getting a kick back from all these companies
Wonderful descriptions and comparisons, this is the best consumer product list I've ever seen  , I'll send you a check! 
Brava!
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Meredith
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4Real Forums : Living Learning
Topic: Quality or Quantity
