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mary theresa
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| Posted: June 27 2007 at 12:33pm | IP Logged
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Okay, I have another question. 
It might be kind of off topic, and I didn't know whether to ask about this here on in Loving the Little Ones -- but all the threads there about potty training seem to be about older kids and doing it at a young age seems to be a Montessori thing. 
So. . . I wanted to ask have any of you "Montessori people" (that's what my husband terms anyone who does any of this 'weird stuff'  ) have started potty training your child around age 12-14 mos (or earlier!) like Maria Montessori and others suggest?
If so, how has it gone?
I've been reading a bit from the "earlier is better" perspective, (mostly from the book Diaper Free before Three) but I would love to hear from anyone who has done it.
Thanks!
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Mary Theresa
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Mackfam
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| Posted: June 28 2007 at 9:27pm | IP Logged
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Mary Theresa,
I was hoping someone with some experience with this would answer your question, as I have never tried to put any of my kids on the Montessori potty train before.
My philosophy is probably all wrong, as I've never really read anything at all on potty-training! So take what I'm telling you with a grain of salt. I just follow the kids cues. They usually let me know when they're ready to hop on board the potty train. I set up a little reading zone  , step stool, etc. and make the area as comfy and inviting as possible. Then I just try to encourage frequently. My dd patently refused to poop on the potty - REFUSED! I was so frustrated - I tried everything. She was so stubborn, and after I ruled out a medical issue I staged my battle. We camped out in the bathroom, and I parked next to her a small table full of favorite reading books, large glass of water, and a lucious bowl full of raisins! It worked! I'm betting you won't find that suggested in the books. I guess what I'm trying to say is keep it simple, follow your child's lead, and when the best laid plans go awry, punt!
I hope so much that someone with some experience in early potty training will answer your questions. My oldest two potty trained around 3. My youngest is potty training now, at 2 1/2.
You have my prayers for sanity!
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Jen Mackintosh
Wife to Rob, mom to dd 19 , ds 16, ds 11, dd 8, and dd 3
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CatholicMommy
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I have been thinking about how to answer this one. My son was potty-trained early, on his own, but lapsed during an extremely emotional upheaval for him, and it took another year to get back to really using the toilet on a regular basis.
From about 9 months onward, I had a small potty seat attached to the adult seat (an extra layer basically) that I would have him sit on, just for fun and exposure - no pressure, rewards, etc. He loved being up there like a big person, but he never actually went until after he started walking at 12 1/2 months. He was constipated one day and wanted me to hold him, so I sat him on the toilet, folded his knees up to his chest and sang to him (to relax him) until it finally came out. He was so thrilled with the whole thing that he was potty trained for almost 4 months following!
I did have to use a different seat for him though, as the one that connected to the toilet had a too-small hole - would work fine for girls, but not for boys. So I got another one with handles and a cushion.
When he lapsed, I tried not to make a big deal about it (it wasn't an issue in the grand scheme of things at that time of life), but would remind him of the availability, etc. He wasn't interested again until a male friend of mine showed him how to go standing up in the men's bathroom. Though he sits down at home, it did jumpstart the re-training, and he's been at it ever since with very few accidents, which we never make an issue of.
I think the key is not making an issue of it, but if encouragement/rewards are needed for some children, then they need it, and making sitting on the toilet time just part of the routine. While I don't personally advocate letting kids run around bare-bummed (for modesty and exploration issues), I do think that kids need to get used to going without something warm and soft pressed against them. We used cloth diapers and I changed very frequently but there was still the adjustment to going over open air.
So it's still a jumbled response....
:)
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Eleanor
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With our first child, we started out trying to use the method that's described in "Montessori From the Start." We used cloth diapers for the most part, and always changed her in the bathroom. I sat her on the Baby Bjorn little potty a few times, starting at around 10 months, and she knew right away what it was for.
At 15 months, we started the "real" training, using an insert seat on the regular toilet. At this point, you're supposed to switch them into training pants -- day and night -- no exceptions. I soon decided that this cold-turkey approach wasn't going to work for us. The cleaning-up ritual might have been a wonderful Montessori exercise, but it was a full-time job in itself.  So we decided to put the whole thing off for a few months, until after our new baby was born.
At around 20 months, we started again. By this time, she definitely knew what was going on, but still had very frequent accidents and didn't really seem to care. Figuring we'd missed the "sensitive period," we gave up on Montessori and tried bribery with M&M's, but that didn't work very well either. We didn't want to go back to diapers, so we started using Pull-ups (which we called "paper underwear" ). I'm sure that delayed things by several months, but it saved my sanity with a newborn and a toddler to take care of.
By 2 1/2 or so, she was reliably dry in the daytime, and was ready for underwear. By 3, she was mostly dry at night, but still had occasional accidents. In a misguided attempt to "respect her developmental needs," I put her back in Pull-ups at night, and she promptly regressed and started using the Pull-ups as a potty (even while awake). We recently took the Pull-ups away, and, after the first few nights, she's been dry at night ever since.
My second child is now almost 2, and he's only been on the potty a few times. We also let him use sippy cups, and watch TV. I guess he's my Montessori slacker baby! But I'm not going to put him in Pull-ups, unless we're going on an airplane or something. They're just a recipe for failure, as far as I can tell.
With the next baby, I'd like to start early again, and do it right this time. Maybe we can hire a full-time Montessori potty trainer to come to our house for a few weeks, and do the dirty work.
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CatholicMommy
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I have definitely found pull-ups to cause huge set-backs. I fully believe they work for some people, but I've just not yet seen a case of success myself. The children do not feel wet at all (perhaps a little bit?) and it's just a glorified diaper anyway - they know they can go in it and it's ok, so they do. When my daycare children potty train (usually 2 1/2+ - their parents choose and let me know), I buy a small package of underpants for them as a "big kid" gift that they wear only at my house and there are few if any accidents. One little girl I had overnight; she wore underpants and was dry all day; at night she wore a pull-up for accidents. It took me a week to figure out she was using the pull-up not while sleeping, but while sitting at the breakfast table. I put underpants on her from then on and had her use the restroom promptly at waking. NO more accidents.
Wow - I think this is one of my most opinionated soapboxes!
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mary theresa
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| Posted: June 29 2007 at 12:04pm | IP Logged
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Eleanor, Jennifer and CatholicMommy -- thanks for your answers! I'm trying to figure out what the best way to do this is and if it really works to do this so early! (I'm shy about mentioning that I'm trying this to people -- I think they'll think I'm insane! )
Going totally Montessori is probably not going to work -- sorry, but changing sheets every night is NOT gonna happen for me Thanks for the Pull-ups thoughts -- I don't know what I'm gonna do for naps and bed . . .
We're just starting slow. I've been sitting my daughter (15mos) on the little potty couple times a day but not much connection going on with what it's for. I think she just thinks it's a book-reading stool! Though we did have a success today, but she seemed worried, like "what is that in my nice little potty?!" She wasn't satisfied till I cleaned it out.
I'm trying to gear up for letting her go for parts of the day in training pants. Thankfully we don't have many carpeted areas in the house!
I guess i just wanted to see if anyone had experience with training a little little one. Eleanor and CatholicMommy -- good to hear that it could work! i hope I don't cop out!
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Mary Theresa
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hobbitmom
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Mary Theresa, thanks for starting this thread! I'd been wondering the same thing. We put a little Baby Bjorn out for ds around 12 mos, but he wouldn't sit on it at all until about 18 mos, when he suddenly showed some interest. I thought I should really start training him then... but then decided that morning sickness and potty training were NOT a good mix!  So we missed that window, and he lost interest.
But I think windows come around again periodically... at 25 mos now, he's suddenly all about the "boppy," and seems really disturbed when he goes #2 in his diaper. Too bad it's only after the fact that he wants to run to the bathroom!
So keep posting your Adventures in Potty Learning. I'm taking notes!
Amy
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CatholicMommy
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| Posted: June 29 2007 at 3:33pm | IP Logged
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[QUOTE=mary theresa] she seemed worried, like "what is that in my nice little potty?!" She wasn't satisfied till I cleaned it out.
For this very reason, my son would simply NOT use a potty chair for the longest time! It had to stay clean! But he had the option of the seat on the toilet, so it worked out. Only since we've moved to a 2-story house with only one bathroom have I convinced him that potty chairs are ok to use.
For sleeping: I found some plastic pants (not the Gerber type ones, but those would do too) that I just put over the cloth training pants, or I would use a diaper cover (we used Bumkins brand so had just the covers on hand). That way, it's still underpants, but the beds aren't soaked!
(I should add that the girl I mentioned in my earlier post was almost 5 years old, with no health or other issues, so no reason NOT to be using the toilet)
We'll be praying for all the toilet-learners this summer!
:)
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mary theresa
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| Posted: Aug 24 2007 at 12:31pm | IP Logged
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So, this is way harder than I bargained for . . .
I guess children CAN get trained this young??? I wish I knew someone who had tried this so they could tell me that I'm not crazy!
I KNOW she's smart enough, understands that going in her underwear is an "uh-oh" and in the potty is "yay." She tells me when she has pooped. She can follow directions, loves to wipe herself, carry her wet pants to the pail, spray the floor to clean up, etc.
But she maybe goes in the potty once a week. And when she does she gets SO excited she cuts it short, pops up and says "yay" and then 5 min later pees the rest in her underwear. Even when I KNOW she has to go and make her sit for 1/2 hr she still waits till she gets up -- and I really don't think it is purposeful or stubborn or anything! She loves her little potty!
I've got her in underwear all day except nap and nighttime (when she ALWAYS poops) and when we leave the house. Do you think that is confusing -- to be in a diaper for 2 hrs at the store or grandparents house and then go back to underwear when we're home??
Should I suck it up and not go anywhere? But how LONG will we be stuck at home? Or take her out in underwear with Gerber plastic pants over? (oh the stress of wet everything in public twice in one shopping trip!)
.... I think she drinks too much -- but she asks for water all the time!
I guess I just need affirmation. No one I know has done this the "Montessori" way. My mom says just quit till she's two. But I've been doing this for nearly 2 months and I don't want to waste what *little* progress I've made!
I'm so frustrated. Does anyone have words of encouragement? DOes Maria Montessori's sensitive period for toilet training REALLY mean something? She's 17 mos. old, so theoretically it'll be over in a month . . . . ARG. Help.
Thanks for letting me whine.
Feeling saturated in bodily functions, and sick of cleaning up pee 12 times a day,
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Mary Theresa
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acystay
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Don't become discouraged. My first daughter started using a potty at about 17 mos. I was pregnant at the time so we went ALOT. I had her naked actually while starting out b/c I found if she had anything on she would pee. Even when she did pee on the floor she was happy to clean it up. She was 25 mos and underware for home and outtings all day. She was dry at night by 3 and dry for naps at 20 mos. the first time we went out, she peed right there in the aisle. I then figured out that it was b/c she had no clue where she could pee, so I started bring a potty with me.
Pooing was another story. She would tell us when and then want a diaper. She would then go on the potty while in the diaper. At about 3 it got to a point that I just said no. I think the few times she did poo in the potty it really scared her so it just kept scaring her.
My second started in the potty when he was 18 mos old. He now did both pee and poo. By the time he was 27 mos we were dry for naps, night, and all day! I recall going to a field trip with him at 27 mos w/o a change of clothes nor diapers ALL DAY and being 2 hours from home at that :) It was great!
Corbin, my 3rd child, is just now doing the same. He is 27 mos so a little behin them, but loves to pee and poo on the potty :) Now it has taken a few weeks to get him to not be peeing 20 times on the floor. Sunday he would get a fresh diaper on (he was sick so sickie poo I don't do w/o diapers) and them pee and 2 secs later want it off. We went through about 10 diapers in the span of about 30 mins. We cloth diaper as well so we finally had to cut him off, LOL and say he had to deal with it b/c he wouldn't have one for night (he is not dry at night only nap).
anyway, stick with it. It may seem like a long time, but I will tell you the accidents once they are done learning this will not be happening. My friend stressed "training" so much that her daughter had accidents all the time in public. My children didn't. The only time it does happen (mostly with my second) is in the car when he doesn't tell me soon enough. It may take a fe months but the work after is nothing. I can't wait until corbin is done with diapers!
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LynnB
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I read 'Diaper Free the gentle wisdom of natural infant hygiene' by Ingrid Bauer when my 10th was 9 mths old and my 11th has been practically diaper/nappy free since birth. He hasn't need a nappy day or night since about 6mths, so it is possible to train a child early.
Here are some strategies you could use for a child who is 12 - 14 mths old. If you are comfortable with your child roaming around with no pants/diaper for a period of time each day the allow them to do this, at this time try and observe their behaviour just prior to weeing/pooing and see if you can pick up on their cues, at this age it could be a concentrated look, crouching or just being a little quieter then normal. Talk to them about what their doing and were they should/ could do it. It's important that they become aware that they are making that puddle. No.2's are easer to catch and often accompanied by grunts groans and facial expressions, so its easer to offer the potty at this time.
Something that I find helpful is taking my ds to the potty at the same time I go, again talking to him about what we are doing. It's really important to changing them as soon as you realise they are wet/soiled so as they realise just how comfortable dry cloths are. My ds gets quite upset if he has an accident he is now 15mths old.
Timing is another useful tool to use, if you have your child just in pants or nothing so you know when they have gone and note the time that they go, you will get an idea of how often they need to go and can offer the potty at that time or a little before. Children rarely wee while asleep and will usually go soon after waking up, this is often a good place to start as unless it's really hot you are almost guaranteed a catch.
Early training is very achievable, you will have accidents that just life, but I think it allows you as a mother to connect more fully with your child. (That’s not to say mothers who use diapers don’t connect) but starting from birth like we did this time meant that we had to be more aware of what he was telling us then we did with his older siblings. if you want any more information just ask & I’ll try to help.
Lynn
Signs and Wonders
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happymama
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Wow, LynnB, great work! I'm glad this approach worked for you, because when I first started reading about infant potty training all I could think was, "great. now society is going to expect my little one to not only sleep through the night but be diaper free, too! Don't we SAHM's have enough work to do already?!" I am glad to hear that you had a successful experience. I guess I'm just too lazy to do it! I thought the same of what I've read of the "Montessori" approach - that with morning sickness or a new baby in the picture, it's just not realistic.
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isjalu0826
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I don't think you should call yourself 'too lazy to do it'... I think different people are called to different things in their parenting journeys... You have to go with what feels right for you.
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mandamum
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We also have had diaper-free babies, and I think it actually fits very well with the Montessori idea of windows of sensitivity, and making an environment child-appropriate. But I think the sensitive window opens much earlier than 12 mo--some people start when baby is sitting up well, and some of us start in-arms. Also, I know several people who practice it in a very laid-back way--even offering the potty just once a week can help a child retain the awareness he is born with and be more interested in using the potty when he is older.
To start with a 12-14 mo might actually be more work, I think, because you need to help the child re-think where he is pottying...now it's prefered NOT to use clothing as a potty place, whereas before it was, you know? But if you're interested in the "Elimination Communication" /Diaper Free idea, I'd recommend Christine Gross-Loh's book Diaper Free Babies, because she describes and gives suggestions not ony for parents who plan to potty the baby full-time, but also for parents doing this part time, and doing it OCCASIONALLY (even if you're feeling "lazy", or have other priorities, as I cannot imagine anyone on this list really being lazy ). You might also look up a local DiaperFreeBaby group, a support group where other parents offer suggestions to try.
Along with Lynn's suggestion about taking baby potty when you go, I'll also suggest offering first thing in the morning or right after a nap. And with the bare-bottom time, a change of point-of-view can help: instead of water-proofing the baby, water-proof his environment by staying in a non-carpeted area or the backyard, or putting a lap pad and prefold flat under him in the car seat, etc.
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LynnB
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happymamma wrote:
| I guess I'm just too lazy to do it! I thought the same of what I've read of the "Montessori" approach - that with morning sickness or a new baby in the picture, it's just not realistic. |
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Not at all happymamma different things are important to different people. For my part I would say that I'm to lazy to change nappies/diapers. After 18 years of changing nappies a diaper/nappy free baby sounded very appealing to me. I went into the whole thing very open minded and really thought I wouldn't be able to do it, but have been pleasantly surprised. For my part I think pulling off a pair of wet pants is easier than changing a nappy/diaper.
Lynn
Wife to Michael and mamma to 11 wonderfull children
signs and Wonders
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mary theresa
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acystay, Lynn, and mandamum,
Can I say THANK YOU SO MUCH for being other people out there who believe that this can work! I needed to know that it was possible. NO ONE else I know is doing this and so it's hard to get support. My dh is supportive, but he doesn't have to do it.
Anyways . . . I was so ready to quit and you all gave me the little push I needed to keep going. My daughter (17 mos) is doing so much better. I keep her in underwear all the time except nap and nighttime and I think she is really getting it -- at least the #1 half, not quite #2 yet. It literally clicked overnight. I am so proud of her!
But i still hope that I can pick y'all's brains?? Would that be okay? I have a couple of questions about some practical stuff.
-- She is in cloth diapers at night and nap. Would you switch her to a pull-up type thick cloth underwear? Do you think she will get confused? How did you help your kids stay dry in bed? I, being pregnant, cringe at the thought of changing sheets all day and night. She asks to take her bottle to bed at nightime --she drinks it periodically thru the night when she wakes up (I don't let her have it at nap) but that will make her wet more, right? Do I need to take that away?
-- She's afraid to sit on the big toilet even with a seat. So, if you're out at the store, do you go to the car if the child wets and keep your little potty in there? I would have to make her sit on it on the seat on in the parking lot cuz there's hardly space on the floor.  Or do you change them in public restrooms? What if you haven't bought your stuff and you are not done in the store? (sorry such silly questions!)
-- What about at someone else's house? I opted out of going to a party at a friends this past wkend b/c I was afraid she'd have an accident on his couch or carpet or something. The plastic pants over the underwear don't keep it ALL in necessarily. My husband was frustrated. He wanted us to go and just put her in diapers . . .
Thanks in advance. And again, thank you, thank you for your encouragement and recommendations!
Mandamum, I started waterproofing the stroller, carseat, etc when we go out like you suggested -- more peace of mind for me!
Lynn, you had so much good advice, thank you. I'm so amazed that you do this with 11 kids. I expect I might have to change my plan with this next one (tho I hope not!)-- it really is so much FOCUS on that one child. But I HOPE I can start a bit earlier -- 9 mos or so? with the next. Before that? It sounds really interesting but I don't know if that's for me.
acystay, I was so glad to hear that it worked with all your kids and boys too. The ppl I tell that I'm potty training my dd, say she's really young, well, she's a girl, wait till you have boys, etc, etc. I have a friend who isn't potty training her 2.5yo even tho ther're ASKING to go potty, cuz it'll be too much work. She's gonna wait till her child is 3.
So many different ways to approach this, isn't there? And ppl can be judgmental/get defensive about it easily I'm finding.
Thank you all so much for your help! I would have quit without you.
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Mary Theresa
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acystay
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Oh Mary, I am so glad others can be here to support you. I will admit, my 2 year old right now is not doing well. He's been in a pull up 2 days mostly I think it is another development thing going on with him and well, I just started my period so that had something I'm sure
I was just mentioning to someone the other day how people are like boys are harding, blah blah blah that I think it that there is this rumor that is harder so why even try with boys. Corbin was so cute today even in the pull up would come to me and tell me off to get it off and then still go and sit on his potty seat.
To your questions...
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| She is in cloth diapers at night and nap. Would you switch her to a pull-up type thick cloth underwear? Do you think she will get confused? How did you help your kids stay dry in bed? I, being pregnant, cringe at the thought of changing sheets all day and night. She asks to take her bottle to bed at nightime --she drinks it periodically thru the night when she wakes up (I don't let her have it at nap) but that will make her wet more, right? Do I need to take that away? |
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I only go the full Monty at nap. I do this b/c I know he is dry at nap time. There have been a few nights where he comes to our bed screaming and wants his diaper off. WE take it off and he stays dry the rest of the night (4-5 hours). The thing is I do a diaper at night for 2 reasons 1. for the rare occasion it happens in the middle of the night and 2. for that first morning pee that may happen just before he and I are fully awake. With my daughter she was dry at night so I did underware when she was dry all night. DS1 the same thing. He actually stayed dry at night much sooner than my daughter did. He now at 3 1/2 will also get up in the middle of the night and go pee by himself.
so, I would wait (personally) for night time but do nap time in underware. You could lay a few pre-folds down under her at nap and right when she wakes cuddle and tell her you need her to pee in the potty. She may pee a couple times before you achieve this but I will say that Corbin pretty much is dry every nap.
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She's afraid to sit on the big toilet even with a seat. So, if you're out at the store, do you go to the car if the child wets and keep your little potty in there? I would have to make her sit on it on the seat on in the parking lot cuz there's hardly space on the floor. Or do you change them in public restrooms? What if you haven't bought your stuff and you are not done in the store? (sorry such silly questions!)
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Well, I have a little potty with me. To begin I would have her try to pee before going into a store. If she wets, I take them and change them. I also started showing my daughter where potties where (that was at 25 months) and she did use them with a portable potty seat. And yes, if I haven't brought stuff I leave. I don't like it, but I do.
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Pretty much the same thing as above. I take her potty with me or the portable seat. I do have Corbin do the thicker underware though. He went to a friends house 40 mins away and stayed dry for about 4 hours. I notice when he starts to get tired he just can't keep up with it. And when we are at someone else's house, I watch close and go often to the potty.
And yes, ppl do get judgmental and defensive! But my thought is if your child is asking to sit on the potty what is the harm? IMO a 3 is much harder to help learn about the potty b/c well they become more independent and want to assert it in any fashion possible.
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CrunchyMom
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| Posted: Sept 07 2007 at 3:02pm | IP Logged
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I am contemplating what to do with my 15 month old as potty training the 3 year old has been excruciating (both boys). I really want to try ECing from the beginning with the next one! I am trying to at least get the baby interested in the potty. The 3 year old was interested at about 18 months, we bought the potty, he used it on his own a couple of times without our help, and then, I was pregnant. Sick. And he weaned. So, I think I missed the "window" there. I'm hoping that with a big brother to imitate, the little one will start to catch on. I just need to get better about consistently offering the potty, I think. All of the above comments are good food for thought!
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4Real Forums : Nurturing the Years of Wonder
Topic: "Montessori toilet learning"
